My high school nickname was (and still is) the Redmen. I don't know if there's any plans to change it. If they did, I would hope they could find a way to keep Red in it, but I'm not sure how.

I like the idea of having a team nickname that is derived from something that shows bravery, courage, and just a strong warrior attitude. I guess they could change the name to the Warriors and have The Ultimate Warrior as their mascot!

<a href='http://www.myaamiaproject.org/' target='_blank'>http://www.myaamiaproject.org/</a>

DrTorch Wrote:

Schadenfreude Wrote:(I think that tells us all we need to know about the spirit in which many of America's Indian sports nicknames and logos were born.)

Yes, it was no different than the same spirit that gave us the 3', green clad ND leprachaun, the portly Boston Celtic, Sparty, the "Marvin the Martian" rip-off, etc.

Baloney.

This is the official Notre Dame history:

<a href='http://und.collegesports.com/trads/nd-m-fb-name.html' target='_blank'>http://und.collegesports.com/trads/nd-m-fb-name.html</a>

It appears "Irish" started out as an epithet used by opposing universities and their fans. Eventually, Notre Dame embraced this term of derision just as gays and lesbians have embraced "queers" and some African-Americans have embraced the N-bomb.

That's quite different from how most of the high schools, colleges and universities in this country arrived at nicknames like "Indians," "Redskins," "Red Raiders," "Red Men."

The example from Syracuse University strikes me as fairly typical.

Quote:The point you seem to miss is that many mascots share the same spirit as the ones for Native Americans.&nbsp; They're either chosen for fierce warriors (Trojans, Spartans, Vandals, Vikings) or made comedic, probably due to some wannabe journalist like at Syracuse.

The critical point is, no Norwegians protest outside of the Metrodome...no Turks write angry letters to U$C...no disgruntled Greeks peitition Mich State's student senate.

I agree. That's the critical point.

AMERICAN INDIANS ARE PROTESTING OUTSIDE SPORTING EVENTS!

Quote:When the guilt-ridden white folks decide to change the name out of 'sympathy' for Native Americans, it shows where the real hubris and condescending and racist beliefs lie.

Why are you so convinced white Americans are making all this up?

Did you miss the quote I offered from Oren Lyons?

He said it's "all in the presentation...The thing that offended me when I was there was that guy running around like a nut. That's derogatory."

Lyons isn't some yahoo. He's an Onondaga chief -- one of the most respected men in the entire Iroquois Confederacy.

<a href='http://fraktali.849pm.com/text/lyons/oren1.html' target='_blank'>http://fraktali.849pm.com/text/lyons/oren1.html</a>

Where is the hubris and condescension and racism in taking Chief Lyons at his word?

For that matter, where is the hubris and condescension and racism in taking these other folks at their word?

<a href='http://www.aimovement.org/ncrsm/' target='_blank'>http://www.aimovement.org/ncrsm/</a>

Schad -

First, let me say that the research you presented on the Huron tribe was dead on accurate. The nickname of Huron for EMU went beyond the Indian tribal reference. The school is near the Huron River...also, back when the nickname was first created, it was actually named for the old Huron Hotel which was a speakeasy where students would hang out. Of course you can't really use a speakeasy or a river as a mascot, so the Huron indian mascot was the natural choice at the time. I always felt that our mascot was very respectful and, to my knowledge, was created with great input from representatives of the Native American tribes that were in the area.

History does, however, show that our change was straight out of the PC handbook. We had no protests by native americans at our events and there was no clarion call for change from that community. Further, a certain alumni chapter (which has not gone out of it's way to endear itself to the University, unfortunately) brought in a chief of the Wyandot tribe in Oklahoma in support of keeping the name. However, since he was not formally on the list of speakers for the scheuled Board of Regents meeting, he was physically removed from the proceeding.

We are still experiencing the pangs of that move. Many alumni have ceased contributing and will not contibute until the name is changed back. I am not among those as I still wish for EMU to succeed and do not feel it productive to take such a stance. Do I long for the Huron name? You bet. Frankly, I don't know why we can't have the Hurons as an unofficial secondary nickname. Like Auburn and other schools which have secondary nicknames.

HuronDave Wrote:Schad -

First, let me say that the research you presented on the Huron tribe was dead on accurate. The nickname of Huron for EMU went beyond the Indian tribal reference. The school is near the Huron River...also, back when the nickname was first created, it was actually named for the old Huron Hotel which was a speakeasy where students would hang out. Of course you can't really use a speakeasy or a river as a mascot, so the Huron indian mascot was the natural choice at the time. I always felt that our mascot was very respectful and, to my knowledge, was created with great input from representatives of the Native American tribes that were in the area.

History does, however, show that our change was straight out of the PC handbook. We had no protests by native americans at our events and there was no clarion call for change from that community. Further, a certain alumni chapter (which has not gone out of it's way to endear itself to the University, unfortunately) brought in a chief of the Wyandot tribe in Oklahoma in support of keeping the name. However, since he was not formally on the list of speakers for the scheuled Board of Regents meeting, he was physically removed from the proceeding.

We are still experiencing the pangs of that move. Many alumni have ceased contributing and will not contibute until the name is changed back. I am not among those as I still wish for EMU to succeed and do not feel it productive to take such a stance. Do I long for the Huron name? You bet. Frankly, I don't know why we can't have the Hurons as an unofficial secondary nickname. Like Auburn and other schools which have secondary nicknames.

I don't doubt a word that you say. That matches what others have said.

Everyone I've ever talked to says the EMU decision was PC run amok.

(I admit it. Sometimes, it does happen.)

And, as I've said, I liked the Hurons nickname. My stance is that it has always been up to the people who own the name to decide whether its use is appropriate. Essentially, we are talking about Wyandots.

But what happened at EMU it doesn't negate the genuine outrage felt by some American Indians on the general issue of nicknames like "Indians."

This isn't honoring anyone:

ZippyRulz Wrote:

FunkmasterFlash Wrote:

Schadenfreude Wrote:And if the Cleveland MLB team drops "Indians" for something cooler (like "Spiders"), I'll smile. I'd be very happy about that.

I'd be really happy if they'd just drop Cheif Wahoo. That logo has got to be the most racist thing in sports.

Yeah, they should retire Chief Wahoo and just become the "Cleveland Tribe". They already use that nickname anyway and it is generic enough to not offend.

Works for me. I'd be more original than Indians and probalby wouldn't irk the die hard traditionalists.

Stick4489 Wrote:

DexterEagle Wrote:I still find it interesting that the Irish community doesn't march on South Bend and the Greeks leave East Lansing unmolested but find a band of American Indians and they'll ride this issue into political power every time.

Bowling Green sororities should be admired for the tolerance for not marching on the Marshall campus to protest Marshall's insensitive nickname. Then again, it might just be their inability to march that keeps them from picketing.

Bowling Green coeds can't march anywhere without people thinking there's a earthquake in Northwestern Ohio.

Dodo Wrote:

Stick4489 Wrote:

DexterEagle Wrote:I still find it interesting that the Irish community doesn't march on South Bend and the Greeks leave East Lansing unmolested but find a band of American Indians and they'll ride this issue into political power every time.

Bowling Green sororities should be admired for the tolerance for not marching on the Marshall campus to protest Marshall's insensitive nickname. Then again, it might just be their inability to march that keeps them from picketing.

Bowling Green coeds can't march anywhere without people thinking there's a earthquake in Northwestern Ohio.

That may be true. But you still need to see 'em and make a judgment for yourself.

ZippyRulz Wrote:

FunkmasterFlash Wrote:

Schadenfreude Wrote:And if the Cleveland MLB team drops "Indians" for something cooler (like "Spiders"), I'll smile. I'd be very happy about that.

I'd be really happy if they'd just drop Cheif Wahoo. That logo has got to be the most racist thing in sports.

Yeah, they should retire Chief Wahoo and just become the "Cleveland Tribe". They already use that nickname anyway and it is generic enough to not offend.

They will drop the Wahoo logo. I was in one of the Indians team shops at my local mall looking at the hats. I noticed taht the Chief Wahoo logo on the hat is getting smaller and smaller. I held a new hat up to mine, which came from the mid 90's sometime. I'd bet the logo shrunk by at least half. The lady at the store (not that she is an expert) says she hears the Wahoo logo will be gone in a year or two.

They are phasing him out. More an more of the shirts and hats I see in the stores are with the new script "I" logo that makes up their Sunday uniform. I like the Wahoo, but at the end of the day, is it really a big deal if it goes? It's still the Indians, they still play in Cleveland and I can still get a ticket to see my favorite baseball team play. Plus I think the "I" looks classy.

It could be worse than "Indians."

In Pekin, Ill. (named for Bejing (Peking), China), the local sports teams were the "Chinks" until 1981.

<a href='http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/magazine/04CHINA.html' target='_blank'>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/magazine...ne/04CHINA.html</a>

(They are now the "Dragons").

In Rochester, N.Y., East High School has been the "Orientals" for about 80 years.

Every so often, one hears rumblings about whether such a nickname is appropriate, but I don't see a problemw ith it. Oriental literally means "of the East." On its face, the nickname doesn't seem to refer to people (it isn't like they have pictures of Asian people on the football helmets, but I don't know the history).

And it is unique. Rochester has no West High School, hence, no "Occidentals." But Marshall High School is home of the "Jurists."

And while I'm rambling, one of the coolest football helmets I've ever seen is those for the new Afrocentric High School here in Columbus. The helmets feature a big silouette of the map of Africa. It's cool as hell.

Schadenfreude Wrote:

Dodo Wrote:

Stick4489 Wrote:

DexterEagle Wrote:I still find it interesting that the Irish community doesn't march on South Bend and the Greeks leave East Lansing unmolested but find a band of American Indians and they'll ride this issue into political power every time.

Bowling Green sororities should be admired for the tolerance for not marching on the Marshall campus to protest Marshall's insensitive nickname. Then again, it might just be their inability to march that keeps them from picketing.

Bowling Green coeds can't march anywhere without people thinking there's a earthquake in Northwestern Ohio.

That may be true. But you still need to see 'em and make a judgment for yourself.

Right again SF!

Stick4489,Jul 1 2004, 08:53 PM Wrote:[

Bowling Green sororities should be admired for the tolerance for not marching on the Marshall campus to protest Marshall's insensitive nickname. Then again, it might just be their inability to march that keeps them from picketing.[/QUOTE]
Never being affiliated with the Greek system at BG, I cannot say if your statement is true. But BG has a great number of beautiful women.

Just be glad no college is using the nickname "cheatin hillbillies" or you could probably sue!

Or you hate the fact Marshall trails BG in the all time series 19-7...soon to be 20-7 after we whup your MAC leaving asses this Nov!