(05-18-2022 09:53 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 09:35 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 07:48 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 12:46 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-17-2022 06:10 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I want people here to call a spade a spade and not bend over backwards to either diminish the role his racists beliefs played in this crime nor deflect and basically go "well whatabout this???"
Dude was a racist POS, and there's enough evidence of it that posters here shouldn't question if that's true...

I am calling a spade a spade. Yes, there was some racist rhetoric. But that wasn't all there was. There were other socialist/communist comments. See the following:

(05-16-2022 01:09 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  Link
Mental illness is a danger to society, and America has placed a low priority on treating mental illness for decades. It would be in everyone's interest to improve the process and add resources for the treatment of mental illness, and the sooner the better.

So looks like maybe our shooter may be a racist, but a LEFT-wing racist. Remember, in the 1930s, the fascists and nazis were the darlings of the American left.

So either left-wing racist or just plain crazy.

RiceLad and Rice93 take the manifesto's white supremacist language very seriously, while dismissing the parts that don't fit their narrative as rantings that indicate nothing about the shooters beliefs or motives. Tunnel vision.

Obvious that this guy is deranged, and tries to organize his thoughts around a smorgasbord of extremist ideas from the internet - he mentions a bewildering array of beliefs, in some cases internally inconsistent. He's a fascist, anti-semite, populist, right-winger, left-winger, white supremacist, etc., etc..

Some choose to read this as fascist, anti-semite, populist, right-winger, left-winger, white supremacist, etc., etc and represent him as having a cogent, rational, reasoned argument. Positively blinkered, or very determined to further an agenda.

Where have I dismissed any of his language because it doesn't fit my narrative? Disagreeing about how to interpret his comments on gun control =/ dismissing them.

I've repeatedly addressed some of the other language in his manifesto and other thing that appear to have contributed to this act. But I stand firm that white nationalist views, based on what he wrote, were the foundation for his act, based on what he wrote.

My only agenda is pushing back on this idea that it wasn't a central part of the issue. What is your agenda with trying to minimize its role. Since you seem to think I have some agenda or narrative here, you must also have one.

Your narrative is transparently obvious because you have been very clear: white nationalism drove this guy to do what he did, and was the root cause of what he did.

My argument is that he's a classic lone gunman, and that crazy is the root cause. Unfortunately there are plenty of examples of these guys on which to base comparisons, and he fits the mold very well. You're trying to minimize that by blaming "teh white nationalistz" and claiming he did what he did because he's a white nationalist and not an (unfortunately) typical lone gunman. Why, you haven't made clear. I speculate it's because your favorite politicians are pushing that narrative, so you will too, but that's only speculation based on your prior behavior on this thread.

Why I push back: Politicians and the media are exploiting this guy's mental illness and the resulting tragedy, and intentionally misrepresenting it for political purposes. I find that revolting and disgusting. It the completely wrong approach to actually addressing mass shootings. It's a squirrel for distracting the voters. If that's not reason enough I don't know what to tell you. Nobody has ever made any headway on challenging your unquestioning loyalty to these politicians and their vile tactics.

This gets back to the agency comment - if white nationalism had nothing to do with the shooting, then why did he explicitly state it was the reason for the shooting did and why did he pick a target specifically because it was located in a predominantly black area?

I'm not trying to minimize other aspects, as you claim I am. Once again, I've actually discussed those and commented that they I believe they had an impact that contributed here. From mental health issues, to isolation, to diving too deep into an internet community that's contributed to radicalizing others. My perspective is that all of those issues (and possibly more) contributed to him latching on to, and acting upon, some truly horrid beliefs associated with white nationalism, but that white nationalism was the central theme that drove this attack.

I think labeling this as just being crazy creates a situation that unintentionally diminishes and dismisses the grotesqueness of the racist views and the intentionality of them. It starts dismissing these views as being those only of crazy people. Of course any mass murder has to have a screw loose - why else would they murder innocent people - but I disagree that one should just label them as crazy and diminish any other influence.

I too could have the worst possible opinion of you and why you're minimizing the impact of white nationalism, but I haven't stooped to the same depth as you.

We're not going to change each other's opinions about the root cause here.