(07-08-2021 03:51 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-08-2021 03:17 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-08-2021 02:32 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  And I think that Deere has a great rationale to tell them not to mess with the embedded software. Many, in fact.

First and foremost, with software modification, there is an issue of jeopardizing the operator's safety or other’s safety around that equipment.

Second, there are concerns in modifying software due to emission regulations.

Third, I dont think one who self-modifies the embedded software can do so without really understanding if that product was being operated within the design parameters for which it was created.

As for diagnostic machines, Deere doesnt restrict the use of those to certified Deere or whatnot. If a farmer wants to buy one and operate it, there is no impediment to that.

I agree that not allowing code to be rewritten makes sense, but only if people are reasonably able to operate and fix their equipment.

Everything I've read indicates the opposite of what you said in bold - independent farmers can't actually get their hands on diagnostic machines. Are these stories not true? Or are they missing something?

Quote:Companies like John Deere won't license out the software necessary to diagnose and fix their increasingly complex farm equipment, forcing owners to source that software online....

Relying on dealer techs to diagnose issues that might cost little to nothing if dealt with on the farm runs contrary to the thriftiness and resourcefulness inherent in running a successful farm.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/39158/farm...ke-repairs

Quote:But he couldn't do much because he didn't have access to the software that would help him diagnose what was wrong. Only a John Deere dealer could do that - not an independent mechanic or Schweitzer himself, the guy who owns the tractor...

Farmers say even simple repairs are off-limits. In 2018, the industry offered a compromise and made a promise - by this year, 2021, companies would sell farmers diagnostic tools that would let them fix their own equipment. But that's not happening, says Kevin O'Reilly of U.S. PIRG, a nonprofit research group.

KEVIN O'REILLY: I myself called 12 different John Deere dealers in six different states, asking to try to buy the software tools and diagnostics that you need to fix your tractor, and at 11 of the 12, I was told that I couldn't buy them. Sometimes I was told they didn't even exist. And then the 12th gave me an email address to reach out to, which I had never heard back from.

https://www.npr.org/2021/05/26/100040089...air-issues

https://diag.net/msg/mrafzaoj7po23xq323tdsc8kr1

Quote:John Deere does allow customer access to the diagnostic/programming software (Service Advisor 5.2), which is currently an online based system that incorporates technical manuals, diagnostics, and reprogramming all into one combined platform. This had been available for Construction & Forestry for some time and has been ported over into Agriculture & Turf in the past few years.

Customer has ability to:

Access Technical Manuals/Owner's Manuals
Look Up DTC's and troubleshooting charts - theory of operation etc. (see above)
Machine diagnostic connectivity with EDL (electronic data link)
Perform Machine Calibrations with EDL
Customer does not have the ability to:

Reprogram machine controllers
View DTAC solutions/submit cases (Dealer Technical Assistance Center) - This is somewhat changed now, will describe further below
Utilize Service Advisor Remote - Allows for remote diagnostics on machines equipped with cellular systems.
Submit technical change requests to manuals/software
This is where I believe the biggest discussion comes in. Many of these articles paint John Deere as outright denying any access to their informational systems and maintaining an outright monopoly on repair of their equipment. This is not true; John Deere is far from the most open with their product though.

It is actually left up to a dealer by dealer basis to even advertise the fact that customers can purchase the OEM Diagnostic Software & EDL. It is also left up to the dealer as to whether or not they sell them to customers. There is a formal sheet that must be submitted before customer can gain access to the software, it must be approved by John Deere Corporate and generally takes 10 days. I have not heard of anyone being denied access after the form is filed though.

Reason I know this is my neighbor in Gillespie does this. Cant believe I m playing gd whack a mole here.

To be fair, it's helpful for someone to provide something besides "my neighbor does it" when there seems to be a mountain of evidence suggesting otherwise (including the same anecdote that says the opposite of the ability to actually use the diagnostic tools).

So has something changed, or has the computer hacking of tractors always been overblown?

edit: it looks like the key is the part in bold. so unless someone happens to be in an area where a dealer allows this access, they can be SOL. I really appreciate the website you posted - a good balanced take on the issue.