(06-29-2021 11:55 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-29-2021 11:19 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-29-2021 11:00 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-29-2021 10:42 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-29-2021 10:32 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I actually did say the combination of stressors, bad heart, and reduced respiratory function due to Fentanyl was the toxic combination.

And, I did say that no one can point to any one of those. Funnily, not even the prosecution can point to a specific single modality of death.

That post, in its entirety, was written off as 'conjecture', which the last statement definitely was. The rest of that post had trial facts that were seemingly written off as 'loads conjecture' or somefink.

For the sake of honesty --- I did a back calculation on the dea data. I need to revise the 2-3 ng/mL to 5-7 or so based on the blood volume of a typical adult. I was wrong in that multiple.

In retrospect the 3-5x should not read as that. The double to almost double dosage per volume still speaks loudly as to the amount of fentanyl in Floyd.

I have a reasonable basic science background although I haven't used it in my career. I do remember the basics though.

You have a concentration (ng/ml) but you are talking about a dose ingested (mg).

An LD50 refers to a single dose. It's not a concentration.

What dose do you think he took? You are basing the dose on a single moment in time where his blood level was 11 ng/mL? And that 11 ng/mL certainly has the possibility for error as any lab tech will tell you.

Can you show your work? I doubt that a pathologist would tell you that they can calculate a dose based on the single data point of a blood concentration. I'm pretty sure that science wouldn't fly in court.

I don't think we have any idea how much Fentanyl George Floyd took.

He took enough to have an 11 ng/mL of unmetabolized in his system. He had just at or more unmetabolized opioids (fentanyl in particular) to be at or beyond double a lethal concentration. At the point in time when the blood was taken, no later than the emergency room or ambulance. And he still had a significant level of metabolized by-product as well.

If you use Dr Baker's standard, that is a 3-4x lethal concentration. Thank you for making me say that. It is more precise. I figure it might be closer to the 3X, maybe closer to 2x based on the above.

The issue isnt 'precisely how much did he take with dose x'. The issue is that his blood was an effective pharmacy market of fentanyl at the time.

And yet you keep excoriating me over "the massive amount of Fentanyl that he ingested".

He ingested enough to have an 11 ug/mL level in his system at that time. And a whole bunch of metabolized by products.

I dont care if he took it 3 hours previous, an hour previous, or, as the pills in the car suggest, just as the officers approached.

You don't think the timing of an oral drug is important when it comes to onset of action? Really?

Quote:The singular fact is that he was loaded to hell and a hand basket at that encounter. The times that he took hit the Apache are immaterial as to what his BFC was at THAT time (to use your emphasis funnily enough...)

All sorts of things matter. Mainly his history of exposure to Fentanyl when you want to discuss just how badly is respiratory system was acutely compromised.

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Quote:The science of blood concentration *is* used in court, as opposed to your re-rendering it to a single dose. Happens millions of times a year in court, to be exact. Across a wide range of substances.

I rendered it to a single dose because YOU brought up LD50 which is based on a dose and not based on a concentration. Seriously, how could you miss that?

And I already stated that as an error previously, pardner. But apparently you keep hitting that chewtoy to the exclusion of everything else.

I chomped that chewtoy because you said that I had "re-rendered the conversation back to a single dose".

Quote:Perhaps I missed the LD50 issue in the same basic way you missed Floyd's heart condition. But, funny, I only now bring that basic f-up to light when you pop your mouth off like above. But please keep pounding that rock, pardner.

I have always recognized the heart condition but questioned it's relevance to the day in question. I didn't "miss" it like you "missed" the LD50 issue.

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Quote:What is a "lethal concentration" of Fentanyl? Please provide reference.

Look at the autopsy notes for one. That was already put forward many moons ago. Dr Baker there said 'starting at 3 ug/mL' (or something similar). There are others I have seen previously. As I noted, hit the dea and cdc to start would be my suggestion, dude.

I doubt anybody is going to give a "lethal concentration" without further context.

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Quote:*edit* I'm sure the science of blood concentration is used in court however I suspect that your armchair forensic pathologist version of converting "snapshot concentration" to suspected dose would get laughed out of court, TBH.

Funny I dont think I claimed that it would withstand that. Please note where I have if you could, as contrasted to your stupid as **** assertion that I think it would stand as implied above.

It's just that you keep pointing to the 11 ng/mL concentration as proof of all sorts of things that I don't think it proves.

Quote:By the way, I dont think I have mentioned a 'suspected dose' at any point in time. Please stop pulling **** out of thin air here. Or not. Your choice.

Really? When you said that he took 4-5x LD50 you are ABSOLUTELY mentioning a suspected dose.

From what I have read 2 mg is generally accepted to be a fatal dose. You were therefore implying, as I read it, that he took 8-10 mg of Fentanyl. I didn't think that you had any evidence to support that claim and it seems as if my suspicions were correct.