(06-28-2021 02:20 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 01:53 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 01:44 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 01:07 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  *edit* My overall point with this is combatting the notion that underlying health issues were behind Floyd's death rather than the actions of Chauvain. Certainly these issues could have made the situation worse but Floyd doesn't die without the unreasonable actions of Chauvain.

While I believe that Chauvin acted outside of what was (or should be) reasonable protocol and thus is not protected by the law for any even unknown or unsuspected results.... i.e. if you randomly decide to push a guy and he had a congenital issue that caused him to die as a result of the push, you are 'responsible' for his death, though it may not be 'murder'... cops have a great deal of responsibility when putting someone in custody IMO, and CHauvin violated that responsibility.... and a horrible thing happened as a result.

BUT... I don't know that it was actually determined beyond a reasonable doubt that Floyd doesn't die without the acts of Chauvin.

Here from the ME's report...

Quote:The Hennepin County Medical Examiner (HCME) said the cause of death was "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual restraint, and neck compression."

It continued to list arteriosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease, fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use as being significant conditions that were underlying causes in Floyd's cause of death.

Medical examiners said the fentanyl levels were at a potentially "fatal level," but that it was a combination of factors that led to Floyd's death.

So although the compressions were the 'last straw', without the other factors, you can't draw a conclusion that someone WITHOUT those other factors would have also died... OR that without the restraint, that they wouldn't have died.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think that there is any reason to believe that he would have died without the minutes of being restrained (choked?).

Only when you ignore the stunningly high level of fentanyl in his body. I dont see how anyone with a right mind can do that, though.

The prosecution shied away from 'choking' or asphyxia. That wasnt one in their 4-5 reasons of death. The facts in the case dont tag along with your 'choking' or lad's 'strangled' wordings.

Second, the position Chauvin was in was depicted in a training slide for MPD. That is, when the suspect is thought of as being in a 'opioid induced excited delirium', the protocol is to restrain the subject with two officers each holding a leg, and one officer straddling the back with his weight.

It isnt hard to understand, when you view the approach of and the reaction of Floyd at first, why the officers thought this. And the fact that Floyd quaffed down a potential 3x lethal dose of fentanyl about a minute before the officers got to his door, that clicks into place as well.

The combination of his heart, and the horse level dose of opioids, and the meth he had in him probably lifted the weight of his death.

The lesson for officers now is, I assume, now when you encounter a suspect with opioid induced excited delirium you should let them go their merry way.

The officer videos of the *entire* encounter are quite illuminating. As is the medical testimony.

I doubt the examiners were "stunned" by the level of fentanyl. I doubt it was especially remarkable given the frequency of abuse in the USA. I don't remember it being incredibly high.

We've gone over this also... the level taken by itself doesn't really tell you the story as to how dangerous the situation was. So much depends on history of exposure to the drug, etc.