Lad...

I honestly feel like you're here to argue. I don't mean that ugly as it is a common thing that people do on forums like this... but the entire reason this forum was created was to get us away from that. OF COURSE there will be arguments, but for lack of a better definition, there is arguing with a purpose (what I'd like to think we're doing here) and arguing for entertainment.

As an example, I didn't really get into your discussions with Tanq or OO, but instead I simply spoke to things you wrote in response to them.... because if you believe those things, they apply regardless of the context. If you believe in race based solutions, then it doesn't matter if you are applying them to farm loans or anything else. I tried to make it clear the differences in our points and we had a relatively respectful conversation, but at the end of the day, you seem to still be arguing with Tanq or OO through me... and are not willing to get out of that back and forth and talk about actually working towards bipartisan (at least on here) solutions.

I don't lay it all at your feet... we all do it sometimes... certainly I do... I'm just talking to you because one of my purposes on here is to talk to people who disagree with me on issues... to challenge my perceptions... to vet my conclusions. That doesn't usually happen if I speak to those who agree with me... so I really don't care if Tanq (or OO or Numbers) wants to work on bipartisan solutions with me... because we are of similar minds... not bipartisan. When we do disagree, like 'defund the police' we are constructive and may still not change each others minds, but we at least consider conflicting positions.

Tanq, OO, Numbers and I all have somewhat different perspectives on 'race based programs' when you get into the details.... but we share a general perception that these programs need to have a clear purpose and clear goals. The PRIMARY goal of which is to fix the problems so that we don't need these programs anymore. That should be the goal of ANY such program. Dating apps should be designed to help you find someone so that you can get off the dating app. This is different from most businesses who want you to be a customer forever. Social programs should be designed to solve your needs so that you can get off of them... whether it is inequality or support or whatever else. SO defining what it takes to get you off of it should be goal #1,,, and that's what we want to talk about. These programs can certainly morph over time or be used to correct OTHER similar events (racism towards Chinese, Amer Indians, etc etc) but the goal of solving racism towards (in this specific case) black Americans should be to eliminate the need for quotas or incentives or 'adjustments' because minorities NOW (the end date, not today) have NOT been denied opportunities for education or advancement and they are offered positions because they are the best candidate... period... and if they are over or under represented in any specific population, it is because they (for their own reasons) PREFERRED something over another, and not because 'other races' made those decisions for them. We on the right believe (I think I can say this for all of us) THAT should be the goal, which requires monitoring and a phase out. The conversations being held here often focus on where we are in that process, which is different in every single situation... We may be 'on trend' in terms of media, but BEHIND in terms of farming... or 'on trend' in sports playing, but behind in sports management.... Or we may simply be further along in media than farming, but still behind 'equality'.

Let's define and agree on the goal... that these programs eventually become unnecessary... then we can start talking about where we are towards that goal. I think it important to keep in mind that being over-represented in one area REQUIRES that you are under-represented in another... because the percentages in a population ARE a zero-sum game. Said simply... If blacks are 13% of the population and 90% of the population at HBCU's, they CAN be 13% of all college students which is a reasonable goal, but they can NOT be 13% of all non-HBCU's. The math doesn't work that way. This is the big problem with quotas... because 'free will and choice' can make some quotas impossible without creating unfair situations... and by unfair, I mean GROSSLY unfair where you are causing a clap back, thus the solution becomes the problem.