(06-15-2021 10:55 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-15-2021 10:35 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I hope you know I respect you, 93... even when we disagree... which is fairly frequently... so the below is not intended to attack you, merely to point out what I see are some fundamentally flawed 'belief's that are fairly widely held by the left, about the right.... and especially about the right on here (the educated right)

(06-15-2021 08:10 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Well, I was referencing the front offices of the NBA/NFL in the past. You seem to have outright rejected any hiring practices that took race into account. To me... that says that you prefer the status quo to those hiring practices.

NOBODY on here (and almost nobody anywhere) has denied that these things didn't take place. What has often been put forth by all of us is that racism is bad, even when done for good purposes... like correcting previous transgressions which is what you're referring to. What we're recognizing is that at SOME point, such actions (broadly) will move from being corrective into being punitive... and will actually CAUSE the sort of REAL racism that it is intended to root out.

To me its a lot like antibiotic stewardship.... where despite how GREAT antibiotics are, using them when they are not necessary isn't just 'extra', it can also kill you.

Quote:I brought up this example as an OBVIOUS one where bias has led to an uneven situation. I know that you guys are less likely to believe that an uneven playing field exists today so I wanted to bring up something with which we can all agree.

How do you address this situation without bringing race into it?

I think this misses the point... best described by an example...

If you require that a certain percentage of a population be represented proportionally in an activity and for some reason, that population is not as attracted to that position... like I had in CA.... especially in cases where there may be an implied extension... like because 70% of NBA players are black, they will similarly disproportionally also want to go into coaching etc... you create situations where you're fixing problems that don't actually exist. Maybe more white players go into coaching because those who can, do... and those who can't, teach?? That phrase doesn't come from thin air. How do you value 6yrs as a player vs 2yrs as a player and 4 as a coach? Doesn't it seem reasonable that the second is generally going to have better credentials for a head coaching position?? Was the first guy 'denied an opportunity' that needs to be addressed?? He likely made millions while the second guy made much less. Does the child of two minority doctors who attended prestigious universities as a result of efforts like this dating back 30 years and attended prestigious private prep schools themselves REALLY need the same sort of advantage that their parents did?? Especially over someone who grew up in foster care, parents were meth addicts etc etc??

NOBODY has suggested that opportunity shouldn't play a part... but should we REALLY assume that in 2021 that black people have been disadvantaged and whites advantaged (as it pertains to education etc?)

More to some points, why is it up to an employer who may never have discriminated against anyone to choose the second or third best candidate for a position for reasons not related to job performance in order solve the problem that the US or state Government caused sometimes decades ago?

Quote:Again... see above. How would you NOT accept the status quo while not accepting any of those hiring practices? How else do you nudge this situation? Just wait it out?

Or maybe you don't think the lily-white front offices were a problem? You have, more than once, thrown out the possibility that genetics may play a role in the situation. Perhaps black people's brains are wired differently and they may not be cut out for those front office positions?

I think comments like this are intended to make people angry. Whether they are intended that way or not, its going to be a common reaction.

While I don't know any specific example from OO that you're talking about... An example of genetics playing a part in professions, you don't see many Hispanics in the NBA where height is valued... and you see lots of them in horse racing, where being shorter is an advantage. I'll leave my examples there. I am 100% confident that OO hasn't remotely implied that it has had anything to do with mental faculties.

I'll respond to the rest later but he absolutely implied that mental faculties could be at play here. Something to the effect of "You guys recognize that there are differences in physical capabilities among races but refuse to consider that there may be other differences as well." He stated such more than once during the discussion of the lack of black front office people in professional sports.

Do you understand the word "may"? How about the word "could"?

But I will listen while you present your facts that tell us there is is absolutely zero difference. IMO, we do not have the research to definitively say either way. Now watch while you and lad twist that into something else.

BTW, other differences could be stuff like acuteness of hearing or keenness of eyesight, or resistance to cold, or ability to digest certain proteins.