(06-22-2020 05:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-21-2020 05:32 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  

(06-21-2020 04:59 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  FortBend: how many Republicans have you ever voted for in --
a) Presidential elections?
b) Gubenatorial elections?
c) United States Senate elections?
Just curious how the crier of 'trumpbot' does when the light is turned in his direction.

president - one (Bush senior in 1988 or 1992, now I can't remember which year)
governor and senate - no earthly idea (probably a couple - I can look up the races in Texas and perhaps jog my memory)
BTW, voting history isn't the only thing that makes you a trumpbot in my book. Basically resorting to calling an entire political party (or always calling a major candidate one) by childish nicknames does it. So I guess that makes me one too.
eta - maybe 1 senate (iirc maybe Phil Gramm when I worked at Rice and his son Marshall was attending there?). Maybe 1 or 2 others like Dubya Bush for governor because I knew my vote meant nothing and the Democratic candidate was entirely forgettable.

So you've voted for as many republican presidents as I have (Reagan, 1980).

Right now, I see democrats as my enemies and Trump as the enemy of my enemies. It's kind of like FDR and Churchill didn't like Stalin, but Hitler was their enemy and Stalin was the enemy of their enemy.

I realize that it is hard for anyone who leans left to understand just how strongly I dislike the democrats. But they have multiple issue positions, which I have recited repeatedly, which are absolute drop-dead show-stoppers for me. So they are mt enemies. And i suppose that means that if you support them then you are my enemy, too.

How many Democratic presidents have you voted for in your lifetime?

(06-22-2020 08:58 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 05:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-21-2020 05:32 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  

(06-21-2020 04:59 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  FortBend: how many Republicans have you ever voted for in --
a) Presidential elections?
b) Gubenatorial elections?
c) United States Senate elections?
Just curious how the crier of 'trumpbot' does when the light is turned in his direction.

president - one (Bush senior in 1988 or 1992, now I can't remember which year)
governor and senate - no earthly idea (probably a couple - I can look up the races in Texas and perhaps jog my memory)
BTW, voting history isn't the only thing that makes you a trumpbot in my book. Basically resorting to calling an entire political party (or always calling a major candidate one) by childish nicknames does it. So I guess that makes me one too.
eta - maybe 1 senate (iirc maybe Phil Gramm when I worked at Rice and his son Marshall was attending there?). Maybe 1 or 2 others like Dubya Bush for governor because I knew my vote meant nothing and the Democratic candidate was entirely forgettable.

So you've voted for as many republican presidents as I have (Reagan, 1980).

Right now, I see democrats as my enemies and Trump as the enemy of my enemies. It's kind of like FDR and Churchill didn't like Stalin, but Hitler was their enemy and Stalin was the enemy of their enemy.

I realize that it is hard for anyone who leans left to understand just how strongly I dislike the democrats. But they have multiple issue positions, which I have recited repeatedly, which are absolute drop-dead show-stoppers for me. So they are mt enemies. And i suppose that means that if you support them then you are my enemy, too.

How many Democratic presidents have you voted for in your lifetime?

Fort Bend -- if you notice you are now doing the act which we noted earlier. That is, you are seemingly moving the yardstick to defining 'trumpbot' as denoting those who dont vote or view things as you do.

Owl #'s said I've voted for as many Republican candidates as he has. I think it's more than fair to ask him how many Democratic presidential candidates he's voted for.

If you want to talk about moving the yardstick, check out the covid 19 thread from day 1 to now. I can't keep up with the latest talking point there on the right - it keeps changing from this isn't as bad as H1N1 to it's just the flu and will be over by March/April/in 2 weeks to they're over-reporting deaths for insurance purposes to we're now testing more people so that's why the numbers are higher to the death rate is low and that's the most important metric.

(disclaimer - the changing yardsticks aren't coming from you or Owl #'s - and not OO primarily either).

(06-22-2020 05:21 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 01:19 AM)mrbig Wrote:  The one point I would make is that I often found the tone and substance of many of the arguments made here by the “non-Trumpbots” to be indistinguishable from the MAGA-hat wearing crowd or the Fox and Friends folks. So I understand At Ease’s confusion. I guess this is the time where it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck but is actually a zebra. I found this to be particularly true during discussions about impeachment, Kavanaugh, Charlottesville/very fine people, And a few other topics. It is amusing how offended you all seem by the suggestion that you are Trump supporters. Trump’s silent majority I guess.

You do understand that pro-trump and anti-democrat may often sound the same way right?

Yes ... and I am sure everyone else here does as well. We aren't idiots.

(06-22-2020 05:21 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Right now, virtually every issue position that your party stands for is a drop-dead show-stopper for me.

What is interesting about the specific issues I mentioned is that none of them would have changed any balance of power in the government or policy if they had gone against Trump. If Kavanaugh is rejected ... he is replaced by another conservative nominee. If Trump is impeached ... he is replaced by a conservative VP. The Charlottesville thing was just a lot of ugliness. Yet I think all 3 most frequent libertarian posters here were on Trump's side for all 3 (quite vociferously, may I add). Same thing with CDC funding/NSC global pandemic team discussions during the early covid-19 discussions. It isn't just that you are on the pro-Trump side of the equation for some of these issues ... it is that you are on the pro-Trump side of all of them and quite vociferously and making the same arguments in tone and substance as Fox & Friends (on most of them at least, granted this is just based on clips of Fox & Friends, I don't actually watch).

(06-22-2020 05:21 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  You and many others on the left constantly mis-attribute the motivation of many of us. I don't like Trump, but I don't hate him nearly as much as I hate the democrats.

Trump seems to have a lot of hate too. Maybe we found the common demoninator?

(06-22-2020 05:21 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I disagree with Trump on many issues, like the tariffs and the wall. But given a choice between the wall and open borders, I'll live with the wall. And I would prefer a consumption tax, which would have a similar effect on imports, to tariffs.

OK, I can play this game. I disagree with Joe Biden on plenty of issues as well (which is why he was like my 6th or 7th choice out of the dems running), but I don't go around pretending that I'm not pro-Biden in the upcoming election and patting myself on the back about it.

(06-22-2020 05:21 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  What you fail to grasp is how disgusting and despicable I find the democrats to be. However much you hate Trump, I dislike democrats more.

Again, lots of hate. Lots of the strongest Trump supporters seem to have ... [checks news over last 4 years] ... lots of hate. It is the tie that binds. Also, it feels like you have written this exact thing 5-10 a week for the last 8-9 months I have been around here. I think we all get it. You hate hate hate democrats and liberals and progressives so much more than anything else. Message received.

(06-22-2020 05:21 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  But he is definitely the lesser of evils to me.

Glad you believe he is evil. I eagerly await you siding with the left on a single argument that Trump is just a grotesque human being.

(06-22-2020 05:21 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't know why I have to keep explaining this.

You actually don't, you repeat yourself a lot.

(06-22-2020 08:31 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  In terms of the three points you put up there, perhaps *you* should note that in every case in creation, the overall goal has been to 'redo' the election of 2016. You act as though there is an overgrowth of objectivism in the above from both you personally, and from your entire set of of brothers in arms.

As I just wrote to 69/70/75, this isn't my take at all. Replacing Kavanaugh with a similarly conservative justice doesn't redo anything. Replacing Trump with a more competent and actually conservative POTUS doesn't redo anything (and Pence's favorability ratings are better than Trump's).

(06-22-2020 08:31 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  From another stance, there is zero objectivism. What do you think that the trial by ambush of Kavanaugh looks like? Seriously? Considering the very long history of the progressives and Democrats to 'take out' any and all Republican SCOTUS nominees, and the *fact* the politicization of the SCOTUS process to a vast, vast degree lays at the doorstep of the progressives, please dont climb on your gd soapbox at this juncture about Kavanaugh.

Had the progressives even fing bothered with presenting even an iota of corroboration, perhaps the 'hive minds', as you seemingly state this side on the forum is, wouldnt be such a hive mind. Couple the complete lack of corroboration (even from people she named as being there), with the massive history of nothing but obstructionism from the Democrats for twenty years in *any* republican SCOTUS nomination (I mean, Alito only getting 58 votes? Gorsuch 54? be fing serious) --- well, too fing bad for that pushback.

Fox & Friends ladies and gentlemen!

(06-22-2020 08:31 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  But, if the choice is confined to OMB and the grotesque form that Democrats have embraced in 'progressivism', well at least I know which one I can adjudge to be less rancid than the other.

Maybe we need to define "trumpbot", instead of depending on FBO's definition du jour.

To me, (any)-bot means somebody who will vote for that (any) without thought or regard to issues or qualifications.

For me, a substitute term is the Automatic Straight Ticket Democrat.

You could also include Automatic Straight Ticket Republican, but we have none of those here.

Nobody here has yet to vote for Trump even once. So it is hard to pin the term -bot on anybody based on repetitive mindless voting. It seems the definition as used here depends more on who one does NOT support.

Yes, I do plan to vote for Trump this year. But not blindly or automatically, but based on the results of his first term so far. He has won my vote, not had it unthinkingly awarded to him.

The reasons some raise to oppose him seem petty or contrived. The reasons I support him are in black and white in the BLS stats. Rising employment. Rising wages. Rising economy.

Nothing "bot" about my choice. It is entirely a thinking choice. It seems to me that most (all?) of the lefties on this board are against any Republican in general, and against the one who defeated Hillary in particular. The Russian hysteria, the impeachment hysteria, the whole "he's unfit" hysteria, now the whole Chinese hysteria, bear this out. It has just been one hysteria after another from the left. It says something when the good guys you support are Nadler, Schiff, AOC, and Omar. It does not say anything good. If one is known by his enemies, them Trump must be pretty good.

I think the most "bot"-like here are the lefties. They seem to be oriented to voting for whoever the Dems put up, regardless of platform.
They seem to be more aligned to party than either Numbers or Tanq. I am aligned more to the Republicans because I see them as the Lesser Evil, but not as the Good - just the Better.

(06-22-2020 09:49 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  To me, (any)-bot means somebody who will vote for that (any) without thought or regard to issues or qualifications.

I think all of us are thoughtful about our decision-making and none of us our bots.

(06-22-2020 09:49 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  The reasons some raise to oppose him seem petty or contrived. The reasons I support him are in black and white in the BLS stats. Rising employment. Rising wages. Rising economy.

What does the economy need to look like in November for you to not vote for Trump? Put it in writing now and let's see what comes to pass!

(06-22-2020 09:49 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Nothing "bot" about my choice. It is entirely a thinking choice. It seems to me that most (all?) of the lefties on this board are against any Republican in general, and against the one who defeated Hillary in particular. The Russian hysteria, the impeachment hysteria, the whole "he's unfit" hysteria, now the whole Chinese hysteria, bear this out. It has just been one hysteria after another from the left. It says something when the good guys you support are Nadler, Schiff, AOC, and Omar. It does not say anything good. If one is known by his enemies, them trump must be pretty good.

To the extent there is any "hysteria" on the left (as you put it), it is because we believe Trump is uniquely horrible. He's orders of magnitude worse (IMO) than Rubio, Kacich, Jeb, Cruz, etc. would have been. So to some extent, it really is about how magnificently terrible Trump is compared to what we think most Republican presidents would have done.

(06-22-2020 09:45 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 08:31 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  In terms of the three points you put up there, perhaps *you* should note that in every case in creation, the overall goal has been to 'redo' the election of 2016. You act as though there is an overgrowth of objectivism in the above from both you personally, and from your entire set of of brothers in arms.

As I just wrote to 69/70/75, this isn't my take at all. Replacing Kavanaugh with a similarly conservative justice doesn't redo anything. Replacing Trump with a more competent and actually conservative POTUS doesn't redo anything (and Pence's favorability ratings are better than Trump's).

(06-22-2020 08:31 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  From another stance, there is zero objectivism. What do you think that the trial by ambush of Kavanaugh looks like? Seriously? Considering the very long history of the progressives and Democrats to 'take out' any and all Republican SCOTUS nominees, and the *fact* the politicization of the SCOTUS process to a vast, vast degree lays at the doorstep of the progressives, please dont climb on your gd soapbox at this juncture about Kavanaugh.

Had the progressives even fing bothered with presenting even an iota of corroboration, perhaps the 'hive minds', as you seemingly state this side on the forum is, wouldnt be such a hive mind. Couple the complete lack of corroboration (even from people she named as being there), with the massive history of nothing but obstructionism from the Democrats for twenty years in *any* republican SCOTUS nomination (I mean, Alito only getting 58 votes? Gorsuch 54? be fing serious) --- well, too fing bad for that pushback.

Fox & Friends ladies and gentlemen!

That is quite the fing dodge there. Instead of responding to the issues note, you just post a gif and a dodge. Given that, do you really expect anyone to take you seriously?

Im giving you the opportunity to talk turkey about specific facts and specific issues.

Your answer is the crap level gif post above. Sounds fun.

Quote:

(06-22-2020 08:31 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  But, if the choice is confined to OMB and the grotesque form that Democrats have embraced in 'progressivism', well at least I know which one I can adjudge to be less rancid than the other.

Got it giffy. Get back to us when you feel the ability not to go full bore gif dodge, as you seemingly devolve into here. Never took you for a literal cartoon level talker. Guess that was a misjudge from the two 'responses' above.

(06-22-2020 10:01 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 09:49 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  To me, (any)-bot means somebody who will vote for that (any) without thought or regard to issues or qualifications.

I think all of us are thoughtful about our decision-making and none of us our bots.

(06-22-2020 09:49 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  The reasons some raise to oppose him seem petty or contrived. The reasons I support him are in black and white in the BLS stats. Rising employment. Rising wages. Rising economy.

What does the economy need to look like in November for you to not vote for Trump? Put it in writing now and let's see what comes to pass!

(06-22-2020 09:49 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Nothing "bot" about my choice. It is entirely a thinking choice. It seems to me that most (all?) of the lefties on this board are against any Republican in general, and against the one who defeated Hillary in particular. The Russian hysteria, the impeachment hysteria, the whole "he's unfit" hysteria, now the whole Chinese hysteria, bear this out. It has just been one hysteria after another from the left. It says something when the good guys you support are Nadler, Schiff, AOC, and Omar. It does not say anything good. If one is known by his enemies, them trump must be pretty good.

To the extent there is any "hysteria" on the left (as you put it), it is because we believe Trump is uniquely horrible. He's orders of magnitude worse (IMO) than Rubio, Kacich, Jeb, Cruz, etc. would have been. So to some extent, it really is about how magnificently terrible Trump is compared to what we think most Republican presidents would have done.

You hit it right on the head. You believe Trump is uniquely horrible.

Anyone else who believes him merely rancid, but has the temerity to call out his opposition as 'uniquely terrible', that is what *you* adjudge a trump-bot.

It is astounding that you dont seemingly have the reflexive insight to see that about your quarter. But, you seemingly dont have that ability to note that in yourself either, for that matter.

I now await your gif response.

(06-22-2020 10:01 AM)mrbig Wrote:  To the extent there is any "hysteria" on the left (as you put it), it is because we believe Trump is uniquely horrible. He's orders of magnitude worse (IMO) than Rubio, Kacich, Jeb, Cruz, etc. would have been. So to some extent, it really is about how magnificently terrible Trump is compared to what we think most Republican presidents would have done.

Yet, interestingly, your quarter and fellow travelers went after Mitt Romney in exactly that same manner. I guess that sequence has zero impact on you.

I will absolutely grant you that Trump is eons worse than Romney. From the rhetoric employed against both, there is/was hardly any difference.

Please do tell, big, who the fk made that bed? I guess that is everyone else's fault *except* the rapidly leftward plunging progressive movement (aka Democrats) to some.

(06-22-2020 09:34 AM)mrbig Wrote:  Yes ... and I am sure everyone else here does as well. We aren't idiots.

So far, you're doing a pretty good job of suggesting that you are at least incapable of understanding basic statements from me.

Quote:What is interesting about the specific issues I mentioned is that none of them would have changed any balance of power in the government or policy if they had gone against Trump. If Kavanaugh is rejected ... he is replaced by another conservative nominee. If Trump is impeached ... he is replaced by a conservative VP. The Charlottesville thing was just a lot of ugliness. Yet I think all 3 most frequent libertarian posters here were on Trump's side for all 3 (quite vociferously, may I add). Same thing with CDC funding/NSC global pandemic team discussions during the early covid-19 discussions. It isn't just that you are on the pro-Trump side of the equation for some of these issues ... it is that you are on the pro-Trump side of all of them and quite vociferously and making the same arguments in tone and substance as Fox & Friends (on most of them at least, granted this is just based on clips of Fox & Friends, I don't actually watch).

WRT Kavanaugh, I was "on Trump's side" because I thought the attacks on him were nothing but a dishonest attempt at political lynching. No, I did not believe Ms. Blasey Ford. There were too many instances of apparent lying--too afraid to fly but she flies all over the world, the thing about the two doors--and her appearance in the senate hearing could not possibly have been "compelling" to anyone not already prejudiced to believe her. WRT impeachment, I thought ut was another dishonest attempt at political lynching, with no actual direct first-hand evidence of any misconduct on the part of Donald Trump, and parts of the story have kind of fallen apart sine then. WRT Charlottesville, I have said from the start that what he should have said was not that there were good people on both sides but that there were bad people on both sides. Of course, he pretty much said that in the preceding part of the quote, the part that gets conveniently omitted from most accounts. His mouth runs too much and gets him in trouble. I wish it didn't.

And I find it interesting that you are somehow able to discern that we take our marching orders from Fox & Friends, when as nearly as I can determine, neither you nor any of us happen to watch the show.

Quote:Trump seems to have a lot of hate too. Maybe we found the common demoninator?

There is certainly plenty of hate directed toward Trump from the left. In fact, all I've seen from the left is hatred for Trump. Nobody on the left has given me any reason to vote FOR any of your candidates, except that they're not Trump. I'll admit that giving me a reason to vote for a democrat is a daunting task given the policy positions that you'd have to overcome.

Quote:OK, I can play this game. I disagree with Joe Biden on plenty of issues as well (which is why he was like my 6th or 7th choice out of the dems running), but I don't go around pretending that I'm not pro-Biden in the upcoming election and patting myself on the back about it.

I'm not patting myself on the back. I'm basically pretty despondent about the 2020 election. Whoever wins will be somebody I don't like. I suppose if Jo Jorgensen were somehow wildly, incredibly to win I'd be relatively happy, but even in her case her VP running mate is a nutcase, so I'd be praying for her health every day.

Quote:Again, lots of hate. Lots of the strongest Trump supporters seem to have ... [checks news over last 4 years] ... lots of hate. It is the tie that binds. Also, it feels like you have written this exact thing 5-10 a week for the last 8-9 months I have been around here. I think we all get it. You hate hate hate democrats and liberals and progressives so much more than anything else. Message received.

No, you haven't gotten the message. You keep misstating it, which tells me that you haven't gotten it. So let me state its very clearly one more time.

I firmly believe that the Alinsky socialist/communist "progressive" wing of the democrats is becoming dominant. I also firmly believe that should that group gain power, the results will be disastrous for the USA--economically and militarily, at minimum. So I consider democrat to be the enemy--of me. and of the USA.

I do not favor the republicans. I have pretty much made my preferred policy positions well known, and I don't see republicans embracing them--although not as far away from them as democrats. So right now republicans are no better than the enemy of my enemy. I wish my enemies had better enemies, but right now I have to take the ones I van get.

Quote:Glad you believe he is evil. I eagerly await you siding with the left on a single argument that Trump is just a grotesque human being.

The leftist argument seems to be, "Trump is a grotesque human being. Therefore he did X because that's what grotesque human beings do." If you want me to side with you, you need to say something more like, "Trump did X, Y, and Z, and here is the evidence, and those things make him a grotesque human being." Sorry, but I haven't seen that.

As far as grotesque human beings, how about this? Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, and Joe Biden are grotesque human beings, and I don't want to see any of them with any more power. They already have too much, IMO.

Quote:You actually don't, you repeat yourself a lot.

Actually, yes I do, because you don't get it. And you claim not to be an idiot.

The democrat left are my enemies. If you support them, then you are my enemy, too.

You want to fit everyone who disagrees with you into this box, call it Trumpbots, where we take our orders from Fox & Friends and unthinkingly support everything that Donald Trump says or does. You're dead wrong, but it's become pretty obvious that you are incapable of understanding that. I think the problem is that you simply can't believe that any thinking person could be as convinced as we are that your party's approach is dead wrong and will do harm, perhaps irreparably, to this country. Try to understand that where we are coming from is not unbridled support for Donald Trump, but unbridled dislike for everything you stand for.

(06-22-2020 10:01 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 09:49 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  To me, (any)-bot means somebody who will vote for that (any) without thought or regard to issues or qualifications.

I think all of us are thoughtful about our decision-making and none of us our bots.

I disagree. I think all of you here supported the Democrat in the last X elections and will support the Democrat in the next Y elections, regardless of who he/she is and regardless of their stances on the issues. I would be happy to proven wrong on the Y.

Quote:

(06-22-2020 09:49 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  The reasons some raise to oppose him seem petty or contrived. The reasons I support him are in black and white in the BLS stats. Rising employment. Rising wages. Rising economy.

What does the economy need to look like in November for you to not vote for Trump? Put it in writing now and let's see what comes to pass!

The Covid epidemic and subsequent economic closures have skewed the stats. I primarily place my faaith on the economic stats prior to the Covid derailment. I also note that the economy is coming back, as evidence by my retirement funds regaining over half of the 30% they lost. But this is also based on what the Democrats (the only alternative) say they want to do once they get into power - and all of their goals are to undo what Trump did. Wealth tax, estate tax, income tax, GND, BLM, yada, yada, yada - not a good policy in sight. Perhaps you could explain to me how those policy reversals will help the economy.

Quote:

(06-22-2020 09:49 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Nothing "bot" about my choice. It is entirely a thinking choice. It seems to me that most (all?) of the lefties on this board are against any Republican in general, and against the one who defeated Hillary in particular. The Russian hysteria, the impeachment hysteria, the whole "he's unfit" hysteria, now the whole Chinese hysteria, bear this out. It has just been one hysteria after another from the left. It says something when the good guys you support are Nadler, Schiff, AOC, and Omar. It does not say anything good. If one is known by his enemies, them trump must be pretty good.

To the extent there is any "hysteria" on the left (as you put it), it is because we believe Trump is uniquely horrible. He's orders of magnitude worse (IMO) than Rubio, Kacich, Jeb, Cruz, etc. would have been. So to some extent, it really is about how magnificently terrible Trump is compared to what we think most Republican presidents would have done.

Uniguely horrible, I think, in this instance means impolite. He is a rather direct person, I agree. He say what he thinks and doesn't disguise it for the media. I think direct is preferable to sneaky, like most standard politicians.

There has been nothing but hysteria on the left since election day 2016. Have you seen the crowds at the electoral vote castings? At the Kavanaugh hearings? Any excuse, real or imagined, to get rid of him has been eagerly pursued. Even to pursuing his kids while defending Hunter Biden.

This is what comes to mind when I think of the Democratic response the last few years.

(06-22-2020 08:58 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 05:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-21-2020 05:32 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  

(06-21-2020 04:59 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  FortBend: how many Republicans have you ever voted for in --
a) Presidential elections?
b) Gubenatorial elections?
c) United States Senate elections?
Just curious how the crier of 'trumpbot' does when the light is turned in his direction.

president - one (Bush senior in 1988 or 1992, now I can't remember which year)
governor and senate - no earthly idea (probably a couple - I can look up the races in Texas and perhaps jog my memory)
BTW, voting history isn't the only thing that makes you a trumpbot in my book. Basically resorting to calling an entire political party (or always calling a major candidate one) by childish nicknames does it. So I guess that makes me one too.
eta - maybe 1 senate (iirc maybe Phil Gramm when I worked at Rice and his son Marshall was attending there?). Maybe 1 or 2 others like Dubya Bush for governor because I knew my vote meant nothing and the Democratic candidate was entirely forgettable.

So you've voted for as many republican presidents as I have (Reagan, 1980).
Right now, I see democrats as my enemies and Trump as the enemy of my enemies. It's kind of like FDR and Churchill didn't like Stalin, but Hitler was their enemy and Stalin was the enemy of their enemy.
I realize that it is hard for anyone who leans left to understand just how strongly I dislike the democrats. But they have multiple issue positions, which I have recited repeatedly, which are absolute drop-dead show-stoppers for me. So they are mt enemies. And i suppose that means that if you support them then you are my enemy, too.

How many Democratic presidents have you voted for in your lifetime?

None. Since I have been able to vote, the only one for whom I would have voted is Bill Clinton in 1996. But no way was I ever going to vote for Al Gore for anything. I've said before, if there were a way to split the ticket and vote for Bill Clinton and Jack Kemp (both of whom I liked) I would have done so. Bob Dole was the ultimate RINO and Gore was simply a dishonest crook (yes, I know things that the general public doesn't know about him). So I voted Libertarian, as I have in every election save one since Libertarians first ran a presidential candidate in 1972.

1972: Hospers/Nathan
1976: MacBride/Bergland
1980: Reagan/Bush
1984: Bergland/Lewis
1988: Paul/Marrou
1992: Marrou/Lord
1996: Browne/Jorgensen
2000: Browne/Olivier
2004: Badnarik/Campagna
2008: Barr/Root
2012: Johnson/Gray
2016: Johnson/Weld

By the way Paul (obviously) and Badnarik are Texans.

(06-22-2020 10:01 AM)mrbig Wrote:  To the extent there is any "hysteria" on the left (as you put it), it is because we believe Trump is uniquely horrible.

Since you expect us to accept that your "hysteria" (or whatever you want to call it) is based upon your belief that Trump is uniquely horrible, can you accept in return that we believe that Pelosi, Schumer, and Biden (and anyone on Biden's laundry list of VP running mates) are incredibly (I don't use "uniquely" because uniquely implies there is only one) horrible?

Quote:He's orders of magnitude worse (IMO) than Rubio, Kacich, Jeb, Cruz, etc. would have been.

I would have preferred any of those to Trump in 2016, and OO (and I believe Tanq) have said the same thing. I think we all thought that Trump was the one republican who wasn't electable, when in retrospect he may have been the only one who could beat Hillary. Looking at 2020, my biggest reservation about Trump may be that he is capable of doing something stupid and thereby handing the election to the democrats.

The democrats are my enemies, because they support policy positions that I believe to be harmful to the USA, and particularly to me. Trump is no better than the enemy of my enemies, but that makes him a friend of sorts. It really is kind of like FDR and Churchill supporting Stalin against Hitler. That's an analogy, and the only historic one that comes to mind, not calling Trump Stalin (he's better than Stalin) or the democrats Hitler (they're better than Hitler), so don't go getting your panties in a wad.

A friend posted something on Facebook, "You're not supposed to win or lose arguments. You are supposed to come to a mutual understanding."

Does anyone think that any sort of mutual understanding is possible in this case? I'm not optimistic, but if someone thinks some common ground can be found, I'd be up for exploring to find it.

Quote:He's orders of magnitude worse (IMO) than Rubio, Kacich, Jeb, Cruz, etc. would have been.

In 2016, there were 17 people running for the Republican nomination, and Trump was about 14th-16th in my estimation. Kasich (correctly spelled)was actually my first #1 and Rubio got my vote in the Texas primary. Trump never rose to be my #1, one reason I did not cast a vote in the Presidential race in 2016.

So if that fits your definition of a Trumpbot, so be it. I cannot help it if your perceptions are skewed by your blue tinted glasses.

I am (was) a moderate leaning toward middle of the road conservative. I tend to the right on tax and fiscal policy, and on foreign policy, and are more centrist on social issues, but the tax and fiscal policy and foreign policy are my priorities. I have said all this many times before. Yoo hoo, anybody listening?

The fact that you condemn those guys tells me you think them bad, just not as bad as Trump. So it reinforces my thinking that you are the bot, not me.

Quote:He's orders of magnitude worse (IMO) than Rubio, Kacich, Jeb, Cruz, etc. would have been.

I note what OO said, that that statement is a condemnation of that following list implicitly.

Here is an odd one, I can actually name a Democrat, actually two for that matter, that ran and I would have actually thought seriously about voting for over Trump.

And I can name about 4-5 others that I would do the same, albeit they did not run.

Kind of an odd stance for a supposed 'trump-bot'. But boy, they really dont like hearing that, for the whole part, what their party has become since pre-2008 is an absolute far cry from the ideologue haven that the Democrats have morphed into starting in 2008.

I wonder if big can name *any* Republican that he would vote for.

(06-22-2020 10:02 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  That is quite the fing dodge there. Instead of responding to the issues note, you just post a gif and a dodge. Given that, do you really expect anyone to take you seriously?

Im giving you the opportunity to talk turkey about specific facts and specific issues.

Your answer is the crap level gif post above. Sounds fun.
...
Got it giffy. Get back to us when you feel the ability not to go full bore gif dodge, as you seemingly devolve into here. Never took you for a literal cartoon level talker. Guess that was a misjudge from the two 'responses' above.

Tanq - we discussed Kavanaugh, impeachment, and Charlottesville ad nauseum and I see no reason to delve back into them. So I posted a couple gifs. Whoop-de-doo. I don't really feel like getting into the nitty-gritty of why you may or may not be a big Trump supporter. It doesn't bother me if you describe yourself as a huge Trump supporter or not. I sometimes find it surprising that a number of your arguments align very closely to the people who are avowed Trump supporters. That is the only point I was making. If you want to throw out a bunch of areas where you are strongly and vocally critical of Trump, feel free to do so. If you don't self-identify as a Trump supporter, it really doesn't shiver-me-timbers.

(06-22-2020 10:10 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Anyone else who believes him merely rancid, but has the temerity to call out his opposition as 'uniquely terrible', that is what *you* adjudge a trump-bot.

It is astounding that you dont seemingly have the reflexive insight to see that about your quarter. But, you seemingly dont have that ability to note that in yourself either, for that matter.

I now await your gif response.

So despite explicitly saying that I don't think anyone here is a trump-bot, you tell me that I am adjuding people a Trump bot? That is some serious temerity right there! Really, I accused OO of being a Trump-bot (or something similar) a few months ago. He set me straight and I apologized and I haven't done so since then (and will not do so again). No gif on this one, can't think of anything that amuses me.

(06-22-2020 10:15 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Yet, interestingly, your quarter and fellow travelers went after Mitt Romney in exactly that same manner. I guess that sequence has zero impact on you.

I will absolutely grant you that Trump is eons worse than Romney. From the rhetoric employed against both, there is/was hardly any difference.

Please do tell, big, who the fk made that bed? I guess that is everyone else's fault *except* the rapidly leftward plunging progressive movement (aka Democrats) to some.

I didn't employ any rhetoric against Romney. Isn't it a bit hypocritical for you to lump me in where unnamed and unsourced democrats who apparently besmirched the good name of Mitt Romney (I assume 8 years ago?) but then you lose your crap when people lump you in with the Trump supporters?

(06-22-2020 09:34 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 05:21 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 01:19 AM)mrbig Wrote:  The one point I would make is that I often found the tone and substance of many of the arguments made here by the “non-Trumpbots” to be indistinguishable from the MAGA-hat wearing crowd or the Fox and Friends folks. So I understand At Ease’s confusion. I guess this is the time where it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck but is actually a zebra. I found this to be particularly true during discussions about impeachment, Kavanaugh, Charlottesville/very fine people, And a few other topics. It is amusing how offended you all seem by the suggestion that you are Trump supporters. Trump’s silent majority I guess.

You do understand that pro-trump and anti-democrat may often sound the same way right?

Yes ... and I am sure everyone else here does as well. We aren't idiots.

(06-22-2020 05:21 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Right now, virtually every issue position that your party stands for is a drop-dead show-stopper for me.

What is interesting about the specific issues I mentioned is that none of them would have changed any balance of power in the government or policy if they had gone against Trump. If Kavanaugh is rejected ... he is replaced by another conservative nominee. If Trump is impeached ... he is replaced by a conservative VP. The Charlottesville thing was just a lot of ugliness. Yet I think all 3 most frequent libertarian posters here were on Trump's side for all 3 (quite vociferously, may I add). Same thing with CDC funding/NSC global pandemic team discussions during the early covid-19 discussions. It isn't just that you are on the pro-Trump side of the equation for some of these issues ... it is that you are on the pro-Trump side of all of them and quite vociferously and making the same arguments in tone and substance as Fox & Friends (on most of them at least, granted this is just based on clips of Fox & Friends, I don't actually watch).

(06-22-2020 05:21 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  You and many others on the left constantly mis-attribute the motivation of many of us. I don't like Trump, but I don't hate him nearly as much as I hate the democrats.

Trump seems to have a lot of hate too. Maybe we found the common demoninator?

(06-22-2020 05:21 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I disagree with Trump on many issues, like the tariffs and the wall. But given a choice between the wall and open borders, I'll live with the wall. And I would prefer a consumption tax, which would have a similar effect on imports, to tariffs.

OK, I can play this game. I disagree with Joe Biden on plenty of issues as well (which is why he was like my 6th or 7th choice out of the dems running), but I don't go around pretending that I'm not pro-Biden in the upcoming election and patting myself on the back about it.

(06-22-2020 05:21 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  What you fail to grasp is how disgusting and despicable I find the democrats to be. However much you hate Trump, I dislike democrats more.

Again, lots of hate. Lots of the strongest Trump supporters seem to have ... [checks news over last 4 years] ... lots of hate. It is the tie that binds. Also, it feels like you have written this exact thing 5-10 a week for the last 8-9 months I have been around here. I think we all get it. You hate hate hate democrats and liberals and progressives so much more than anything else. Message received.

(06-22-2020 05:21 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  But he is definitely the lesser of evils to me.

Glad you believe he is evil. I eagerly await you siding with the left on a single argument that Trump is just a grotesque human being.

(06-22-2020 05:21 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't know why I have to keep explaining this.

You actually don't, you repeat yourself a lot.

You crow about the 'hate' running through Trump and Trump supporters.

Hate to tell you the progs arent a whole hill of beans better in the vitriol, perhaps you should take some blinders off there.

And, I really hate to tell you about the vitriol level leveled at Baby Bush, Romney in 2012, and a whole host of non-progressives for the last 25 years in an ever increasing gnashing of teeth.

Next time you make such an incisive comment, perhaps you should engender a little self-reflection on your side of the aisle over history. Might be a tad enlightening. Or not. Your choice.

I mean, we were noting this 6 years ago in the colleges, and specifically directed at any speaker that spoke, in prog terms, anything that even had a whiff on non-progressive content.

Your focus on Trump supporters hating without any reference to anything else emanating from the left over the last 20 years is one masterfully awesome job at gaslighting. Good grief.

(06-22-2020 09:34 AM)mrbig Wrote:  You hate hate hate democrats and liberals and progressives so much more than anything else.

I don't think Owl#'s or anyone else here hates liberals. And from what I have seen, many of the folks here who call themselves "progressives" are actually liberals, not "prog-bots". That is why there is at least some cause for hope.