(06-13-2019 02:33 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 01:39 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 01:34 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  [quote='OptimisticOwl' pid='16144257' dateline='1560438375']
I’m in Las Vegas, and the crowds are huuuuuge. I think there are a lot of people who could not afford it in 2016, but now, they have $2-4,000 they can spare. I would guess this crowd would split 80-20 for Trump. All independently minded capitalists and true democrats.

https://www.lvcva.com/stats-and-facts/vi...tatistics/

Per the official Las Vegas Visitor statistics the monthly average visitors in 2016 was 3,578,008.

So far (through April) the 2019 average is 3,473,500.

Looking at the 2018 monthlies it doesn't look like a huge difference when you compare Jan-April to the full twelve months.

But maybe you are right and the tax cuts really kicked in this month and it's a massive Trump celebration over there.

Damn, you guys will quarrel about anything, if it casts shade on Trump.

I just thought it was an interesting post. Here I am in Las Vegas and it is crowded. Therefore the tax cuts are working?

Quote:Well, now it is June, not April, and the World Series of Poker has kicked in. I have been every year since 2006 save 2009.

I bet the June numbers exceed the average by quite a bit. But the test would be, if the June 2019 numbers exceed the June averages from 2008-2016. You got that?

]

Yes. I got it. That is why I specifically referenced the monthlies for the previous year. Do you think there is something specific about June as opposed to April when it comes to visitors enjoying their massive tax breaks? Or is it just the serious poker players that got the tax cut?

Quote:In any case, I was talking about poker players, not the mindless drones playing the slots. The mindless drones probably break big for the Democrats.

Ummmm... OK. Sure. In the interest of not appearing combative let’s just let this one slide.

Quote:Poker players rely on their own decisions, not blind luck. They might complain that somebody is Luckier than them, but they don’t expect the dealer to take chips from the big stacks and give them to them because they made a bad decision or didn’t get dealt good cards.

As for Democratic (small d), we sit and play with anybody who has the money to buy in (buy ins range from $500 to $1,000,000 and are not subsidized by the government). Today I have played with players from Iran, India, New Zealand, and dozens of other countries, and probably every state in the Union and every Province of Canada. The players have been black brown, white, male, female and at least one transsexual, and one guy wearing a kilt. I have used the “gender neutral” restroom.
, along with the preceding. Just need to be 21 and pay the entry fee. No discounts for being this or that. Everybody treated the same.

Definitely one of the best things about sports, games, and competitions in general. They are very small-d democratizing.

I’ll let the smart- assedness slide, but hell yes there is a difference between June and April. The main thing is the tens of thousands of extra visitors here due to the WSOP, which started in very late May and will continue until mid-July. A lot of people come for a week, and choose this time for,that reason. So there are a lot here in June who wer not here in April. For some reason you think LV is steady state?

But also, more people travel in the summer. Kids out of school, for one thing. I met a dealer works as an educator. Dealing is his summer job.

April is not June, nor is it October.

But here see for yourself. WSOP.com

It’s kind of like saying tourism in New Orleans is the same for Madrid Gras as for August.

Fact is, you know nothing about this except nothing good can come from cutting taxes, a typical D position, or that nothing good came come anything Trump does, another typical position.

I refer you again to the BLS figures and await your explanation of how better economic times can have no effect on people.

(06-13-2019 07:27 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 02:33 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 01:39 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 01:34 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  [quote='OptimisticOwl' pid='16144257' dateline='1560438375']
I’m in Las Vegas, and the crowds are huuuuuge. I think there are a lot of people who could not afford it in 2016, but now, they have $2-4,000 they can spare. I would guess this crowd would split 80-20 for Trump. All independently minded capitalists and true democrats.

https://www.lvcva.com/stats-and-facts/vi...tatistics/

Per the official Las Vegas Visitor statistics the monthly average visitors in 2016 was 3,578,008.

So far (through April) the 2019 average is 3,473,500.

Looking at the 2018 monthlies it doesn't look like a huge difference when you compare Jan-April to the full twelve months.

But maybe you are right and the tax cuts really kicked in this month and it's a massive Trump celebration over there.

Damn, you guys will quarrel about anything, if it casts shade on Trump.

I just thought it was an interesting post. Here I am in Las Vegas and it is crowded. Therefore the tax cuts are working?

Quote:Well, now it is June, not April, and the World Series of Poker has kicked in. I have been every year since 2006 save 2009.

I bet the June numbers exceed the average by quite a bit. But the test would be, if the June 2019 numbers exceed the June averages from 2008-2016. You got that?

]

Yes. I got it. That is why I specifically referenced the monthlies for the previous year. Do you think there is something specific about June as opposed to April when it comes to visitors enjoying their massive tax breaks? Or is it just the serious poker players that got the tax cut?

Quote:In any case, I was talking about poker players, not the mindless drones playing the slots. The mindless drones probably break big for the Democrats.

Ummmm... OK. Sure. In the interest of not appearing combative let’s just let this one slide.

Quote:Poker players rely on their own decisions, not blind luck. They might complain that somebody is Luckier than them, but they don’t expect the dealer to take chips from the big stacks and give them to them because they made a bad decision or didn’t get dealt good cards.

As for Democratic (small d), we sit and play with anybody who has the money to buy in (buy ins range from $500 to $1,000,000 and are not subsidized by the government). Today I have played with players from Iran, India, New Zealand, and dozens of other countries, and probably every state in the Union and every Province of Canada. The players have been black brown, white, male, female and at least one transsexual, and one guy wearing a kilt. I have used the “gender neutral” restroom.
, along with the preceding. Just need to be 21 and pay the entry fee. No discounts for being this or that. Everybody treated the same.

Definitely one of the best things about sports, games, and competitions in general. They are very small-d democratizing.

I’ll let the smart- assedness slide, but hell yes there is a difference between June and April. The main thing is the tens of thousands of extra visitors here due to the WSOP, which started in very late May and will continue until mid-July. A lot of people come for a week, and choose this time for,that reason. So there are a lot here in June who wer not here in April. For some reason you think LV is steady state?

I definitely don't. That's why I said that I looked at the monthlies to see if June happened to be an outlier based on the WSOP. I thought maybe it wasn't because there are huge conventions in Las Vegas throughout the year.

Quote:But also, more people travel in the summer. Kids out of school, for one thing. I met a dealer works as an educator. Dealing is his summer job.

April is not June, nor is it October.

But here see for yourself. WSOP.com

It’s kind of like saying tourism in New Orleans is the same for Madrid Gras as for August.

Fact is, you know nothing about this except nothing good can come from cutting taxes, a typical D position, or that nothing good came come anything Trump does, another typical position.

All I know is what the Las Vegas Board of Tourism provides in terms of monthly visitors:

April 2018- 3,548,000
May 2018- 3,630,400
June 2018- 3,565.400
July 2018- 3,659,600
August 2018- 3,555,200

It doesn't look to me like June is an outlier of crazy Las Vegas traffic. My point was not that there is no such thing as seasonal tourism in certain locations. It was that if people had a bunch of extra money in their pocket from Trump's economy (as you have implied) then they would be just as likely to be increasing the Las Vegas visitor numbers in April, 2019 as they would in June, 2019 when compared to April/June, 2016.

At no point in this conversation have I advocated for a tax hike. Selfishly, my bank account has been quite pleased with the 2017 tax bill. My issue was not with Trump here but with your statement that Las Vegas seems crowded and therefore disposable income has certainly increased thanks to Trump's policies.

Quote:I refer you again to the BLS figures and await your explanation of how better economic times can have no effect on people.

I said that the average wage increase has been nullified to some extent by increases in COL and inflation. That's why much of the middle class hasn't felt like they are better off now than they were in 2016.

(06-13-2019 10:27 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 07:27 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 02:33 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 01:39 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 01:34 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  https://www.lvcva.com/stats-and-facts/vi...tatistics/

Per the official Las Vegas Visitor statistics the monthly average visitors in 2016 was 3,578,008.

So far (through April) the 2019 average is 3,473,500.

Looking at the 2018 monthlies it doesn't look like a huge difference when you compare Jan-April to the full twelve months.

But maybe you are right and the tax cuts really kicked in this month and it's a massive Trump celebration over there.

Damn, you guys will quarrel about anything, if it casts shade on Trump.

I just thought it was an interesting post. Here I am in Las Vegas and it is crowded. Therefore the tax cuts are working?

Quote:Well, now it is June, not April, and the World Series of Poker has kicked in. I have been every year since 2006 save 2009.

I bet the June numbers exceed the average by quite a bit. But the test would be, if the June 2019 numbers exceed the June averages from 2008-2016. You got that?

]

Yes. I got it. That is why I specifically referenced the monthlies for the previous year. Do you think there is something specific about June as opposed to April when it comes to visitors enjoying their massive tax breaks? Or is it just the serious poker players that got the tax cut?

Quote:In any case, I was talking about poker players, not the mindless drones playing the slots. The mindless drones probably break big for the Democrats.

Ummmm... OK. Sure. In the interest of not appearing combative let’s just let this one slide.

Quote:Poker players rely on their own decisions, not blind luck. They might complain that somebody is Luckier than them, but they don’t expect the dealer to take chips from the big stacks and give them to them because they made a bad decision or didn’t get dealt good cards.

As for Democratic (small d), we sit and play with anybody who has the money to buy in (buy ins range from $500 to $1,000,000 and are not subsidized by the government). Today I have played with players from Iran, India, New Zealand, and dozens of other countries, and probably every state in the Union and every Province of Canada. The players have been black brown, white, male, female and at least one transsexual, and one guy wearing a kilt. I have used the “gender neutral” restroom.
, along with the preceding. Just need to be 21 and pay the entry fee. No discounts for being this or that. Everybody treated the same.

Definitely one of the best things about sports, games, and competitions in general. They are very small-d democratizing.

I’ll let the smart- assedness slide, but hell yes there is a difference between June and April. The main thing is the tens of thousands of extra visitors here due to the WSOP, which started in very late May and will continue until mid-July. A lot of people come for a week, and choose this time for,that reason. So there are a lot here in June who wer not here in April. For some reason you think LV is steady state?

I definitely don't. That's why I said that I looked at the monthlies to see if June happened to be an outlier based on the WSOP. I thought maybe it wasn't because there are huge conventions in Las Vegas throughout the year.

Quote:But also, more people travel in the summer. Kids out of school, for one thing. I met a dealer works as an educator. Dealing is his summer job.

April is not June, nor is it October.

But here see for yourself. WSOP.com

It’s kind of like saying tourism in New Orleans is the same for Madrid Gras as for August.

Fact is, you know nothing about this except nothing good can come from cutting taxes, a typical D position, or that nothing good came come anything Trump does, another typical position.

All I know is what the Las Vegas Board of Tourism provides in terms of monthly visitors:

April 2018- 3,548,000
May 2018- 3,630,400
June 2018- 3,565.400
July 2018- 3,659,600
August 2018- 3,555,200

It doesn't look to me like June is an outlier of crazy Las Vegas traffic. My point was not that there is no such thing as seasonal tourism in certain locations. It was that if people had a bunch of extra money in their pocket from Trump's economy (as you have implied) then they would be just as likely to be increasing the Las Vegas visitor numbers in April, 2019 as they would in June, 2019 when compared to April/June, 2016.

At no point in this conversation have I advocated for a tax hike. Selfishly, my bank account has been quite pleased with the 2017 tax bill. My issue was not with Trump here but with your statement that Las Vegas seems crowded and therefore disposable income has certainly increased thanks to Trump's policies.

Quote:I refer you again to the BLS figures and await your explanation of how better economic times can have no effect on people.

I said that the average wage increase has been nullified to some extent by increases in COL and inflation. That's why much of the middle class hasn't felt like they are better off now than they were in 2016.

Inflation is negligible. I guess you can look up the COL, but are gasoline prices a big part of that? Those are dropping.

Getting tired of you telling me to not believe my lying eyes. I was here last June, I am here now. I see the difference. Maybe next year, when you have the June 2019 stats, you will too. Why the difference? Maybe more cash. Maybe global warming. Maybe mass delusion. You tell me why. You have the advantage of being 2,000 miles away and using last year’s data.

Lots of Toronto fans in the sports book.

So what are YOU doing with your extra disposable income? Spending it or saving it?

Anecdote - playing at the Mirage, with Brits, Scots, Aussies, Kiwis, yanks and southerners, all talking English and barely, if that, understanding each other. Tower of Babel, in one language.

(12-08-2016 11:57 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-08-2016 11:06 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  
How long until he starts using his power to suppress dissent?

Call me when it happens.

Still waiting.

(06-13-2019 12:57 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 11:01 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:26 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 08:23 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  In any case, 93, you are talking about “fairness” a highly subjective judgement, and one with which I dis agree. You want fairness, abolish the graduated income tax and pass the Fair Tax.
But in reference to the Trump tax cuts, I am talking effect. I am saying a better economy helps us all, and that is what those cuts are producing. I don’t see the point in cutting off our noses to spite our faces, even if some segment of society thinks noseless faces are “fairer”.

No I'm not. I referenced the tax cut tissue as a way that the right "wields power" by deciding who gets favorable changes in taxation. When did I discuss "fairness"?

Sorry. So you think it’s fair that the people who pay the most taxes get the most tax cuts? I see nothing wrong with that, either. In any case, the results are showing.
I have always listed tax policy as one of my top issues. Usually, when I suggest tax cuts, whatever leftist I am talking with goes right to greed and/or fairness.

But here's the thing with the "fairness" argument. The "rich" pay a larger share of the total tax burden here than in almost any other developed country. So if you determine "fair share" based on world standards, the "rich" are paying substantially more than their "fair share" here.
But of course, they don't want to pay more. So they move investments and income to foreign jurisdictions where they are taxed less. And with investment goes jobs. So the loser in that is the middle class who would be working in those jobs if they were here.
We brought our corporate rates more in line with the rest of the developed world in the 2017 law. So we get a big increase in manufacturing jobs and an increase in the average wage rate, both for the first time in years. It's not rocket science.

Have we seen that increase in manufacturing? I remember seeing an article that said the tax law did not create the large capital investments it was touted to create and was overwhelmingly used for dividends and stock buy backs, which disproportionately affect wealthy individuals and not middle to lower class (since they do not generally own stock).

I believe I’ve seen a reported increase of something like 430,000 manufacturing jobs. That would appear to indicate a significant increase in manufacturing. But the real impact on manufacturing would come in the longer term. Say I was making a plant location decision right after the law was passed. If the decrease in tax rates caused me to decide to put that plant in the USA, it would still take a few years to buy the land, build the plant, and start production before anything would show up in the manufacturing statistics. In year one, dividends and stock buybacks are reasonable uses of extra cash. If you don’t have any shovel-ready projects ready to go, there’s really nothing else to do with the cash, so you might as well pay it out to the shareholders and make them feel good.

Interestingly, I am attending a tax seminar this week, the annual Texas Federal Tax Institute in San Antonio. I like attending it because it includes some tax policy presentations to give an idea where we are headed. Various panel discussions by some IRS personnel, congressional staffers, tax lobbyists, tax practitioners, and policy wonks have revealed two interesting points. One, there was a general consensus on both sides of the aisle in 2017 that our corporate rates were too high. Two, the possibility of a democrat victory in 2020 followed by reimposition of the old higher corporate rates has had a chilling effect on some corporate expansion planning.

We in the USA have such tremendous geographic and demographic advantages that it is probably impossible to destroy our economy short of global thermonuclear war. Even in a worldwide depression, we would almost certainly be the last ones standing. But we have managed to self-inflict damage through such measures as non-competitive tax laws and excessively burdensome regulatory procedures. During the Cold War, that may have been partly by design, in keeping with the framework outlined at Bretton Woods. But that ended 30 years ago, and we haven’t really responded to the idea that in the law post-Cold-War era, economic power will matter more than military power. We’ve tried to impose a military victory in the Middle East, while China has used economic influence to establish spheres of influence in Africa and now Latin America. Reagan won the Cold War with economic, not military power. We need to wake up.

Moves that would make us more competitive in the global economy would include a national consumption tax (VAT/GST/Fair Tax), to enable balancing the budget and lowering and flattening both personal and corporate income tax rates, reforming regulatory processes, Bismarck universal private health care, infrastructure upgrades, and improved vocational education. Do those things and we dominate the world economy. The biggest problem we would have is spending enough on infrastructure to keep up with growth.

(06-14-2019 01:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  [quote='Rice93' pid='16145298' dateline='1560482823']
[quote='OptimisticOwl' pid='16145120' dateline='1560472072']
[quote='Rice93' pid='16144719' dateline='1560454439']
[quote='georgewebb' pid='16144625' dateline='1560451170']

Getting tired of you telling me to not believe my lying eyes. I was here last June, I am here now. I see the difference. Maybe next year, when you have the June 2019 stats, you will too. Why the difference? Maybe more cash. Maybe global warming. Maybe mass delusion. You tell me why. You have the advantage of being 2,000 miles away and using last year’s data.

*sigh* I never said there isn't an uptick of visitors to Las Vegas in June, 2019. I would have no basis to take that position. Maybe there will be 5,000,000 visitors this month. Maybe it will be consistent with previous years. I am just saying that there is no evidence that I could find that suggests that Trump's booming economy has led to more people taking their extra money to Las Vegas when you compare it to 2016 (which is what you suggested in your original post).

Quote:So what are YOU doing with your extra disposable income? Spending it or saving it?

Increasing 529 contributions.

Going back to Oberlin, here is a classic piece of advice for Gibson's bakery (from elsewhere):

Collect every red cent of the direct and punis, and every red cent of the attorney's fees. Then, set up a table right outside the front gate to Oberlin and sell donuts.

(06-14-2019 07:54 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 01:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  [quote='Rice93' pid='16145298' dateline='1560482823']
[quote='OptimisticOwl' pid='16145120' dateline='1560472072']
[quote='Rice93' pid='16144719' dateline='1560454439']
[quote='georgewebb' pid='16144625' dateline='1560451170']

Getting tired of you telling me to not believe my lying eyes. I was here last June, I am here now. I see the difference. Maybe next year, when you have the June 2019 stats, you will too. Why the difference? Maybe more cash. Maybe global warming. Maybe mass delusion. You tell me why. You have the advantage of being 2,000 miles away and using last year’s data.

*sigh* I never said there isn't an uptick of visitors to Las Vegas in June, 2019. I would have no basis to take that position. Maybe there will be 5,000,000 visitors this month. Maybe it will be consistent with previous years. I am just saying that there is no evidence that I could find that suggests that Trump's booming economy has led to more people taking their extra money to Las Vegas when you compare it to 2016 (which is what you suggested in your original post).

Quote:So what are YOU doing with your extra disposable income? Spending it or saving it?

Increasing 529 contributions.

Some people use their gains to fund 529s. I am using my gains to help fund maintaining my invalid sister. Others may buy a car. Others may take a vacation to Vegas. Others may use it to fulfill a lifelong dream of playing in the World Series. Is this such a leap? *sigh*

I guess my mistake was using the extra “u”’s in huuuuuuge. Triggered theTrump response. Maybe I should have just said booming. But now I need to get dressed and go downstairs to get in line for a table in the restaurant. Seems they are always full, with 3-10 waiting. No idea what the stats say. But I didn’t wait at all last year. Except at the Diamond Lounge.

(06-14-2019 09:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 07:54 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 01:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  [quote='Rice93' pid='16145298' dateline='1560482823']
[quote='OptimisticOwl' pid='16145120' dateline='1560472072']
[quote='Rice93' pid='16144719' dateline='1560454439']
[quote='georgewebb' pid='16144625' dateline='1560451170']

Getting tired of you telling me to not believe my lying eyes. I was here last June, I am here now. I see the difference. Maybe next year, when you have the June 2019 stats, you will too. Why the difference? Maybe more cash. Maybe global warming. Maybe mass delusion. You tell me why. You have the advantage of being 2,000 miles away and using last year’s data.

*sigh* I never said there isn't an uptick of visitors to Las Vegas in June, 2019. I would have no basis to take that position. Maybe there will be 5,000,000 visitors this month. Maybe it will be consistent with previous years. I am just saying that there is no evidence that I could find that suggests that Trump's booming economy has led to more people taking their extra money to Las Vegas when you compare it to 2016 (which is what you suggested in your original post).

Quote:So what are YOU doing with your extra disposable income? Spending it or saving it?

Increasing 529 contributions.

Some people use their gains to fund 529s. I am using my gains to help fund maintaining my invalid sister. Others may buy a car. Others may take a vacation to Vegas. Others may use it to fulfill a lifelong dream of playing in the World Series. Is this such a leap? *sigh*

Agree. But I'm really not the population that deserves the tax break IMO. I'll take it for my kids' 529 (probably if I was a more principled person I'd send the entirety of it to charity). My receiving a tax windfall doesn't help the issue of income inequality.

If people were travelling to Las Vegas more frequently because they had more money in their pocket compared to 2016 then the visitor numbers should reflect that. It's pretty simple.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/crossi...li=BBnbcA1

These are similar to what I would often see from the parking lot at one of my offices. Actually a Little Dipper behind my office.

Note the elevated freeway in some shots. Many crossings are right in the middle of town.

(06-14-2019 07:54 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 01:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  [quote='Rice93' pid='16145298' dateline='1560482823']
[quote='OptimisticOwl' pid='16145120' dateline='1560472072']
[quote='Rice93' pid='16144719' dateline='1560454439']
[quote='georgewebb' pid='16144625' dateline='1560451170']

Getting tired of you telling me to not believe my lying eyes. I was here last June, I am here now. I see the difference. Maybe next year, when you have the June 2019 stats, you will too. Why the difference? Maybe more cash. Maybe global warming. Maybe mass delusion. You tell me why. You have the advantage of being 2,000 miles away and using last year’s data.

*sigh* I never said there isn't an uptick of visitors to Las Vegas in June, 2019. I would have no basis to take that position. Maybe there will be 5,000,000 visitors this month. Maybe it will be consistent with previous years. I am just saying that there is no evidence that I could find that suggests that Trump's booming economy has led to more people taking their extra money to Las Vegas when you compare it to 2016 (which is what you suggested in your original post).

Quote:So what are YOU doing with your extra disposable income? Spending it or saving it?

Increasing 529 contributions.

Isn't that rather selfish? Certainly would be better for society if you contribute that extra income to the IRS for the public good, rather than hoarding it for your own family's private gain. After all, you stated that you're not the kind of person who "deserves" extra income in the first place, so why are you hoarding it? And of course, hoping to convey the benefit of one's wealth to one's children is arguably the most deplorable sentiment of all.

The more we learn, the more it seems that you may not really be a "progressive" after all -- at most, one of their useful innocents.

(06-13-2019 12:52 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:02 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I see Lad has responded with his oh so predictable Socialist platform - workers of the world, unite!

Again, I refer everybody to The BLS statistics. Higher wages, more take home. Clearly unfair. More employment, less unemployment. How mean.


The Democrats don’t hate prosperity. Mainly, they don’t like to see it as a result of Trump’s actions, and they really don’t like it if it makes getting elected tougher.

Back to the agenda - bring down Trump, and don’t care who it hurts.

Caring about the welfare of workers is not socialist...

.... This is a great example of how the word socialism is needlessly thrown around...

Then why are so many Democrats "needlessly" eager to call themselves socialists? Two possibilities are:
(1) They are ignorant;
(2) They don't actually, or at least are not content to, "care about the welfare of workers"; rather, they hope to use the supposed "welfare of workers" as an excuse to control the economy, which is to stay, to control the people.

Henry Ford's maxim suggests (1) may explain it. On the other hand, historical precedent around the world suggests that (2) is pretty likely. In the case of some particularly high-profile, particularly stupid Democrats, both reasons are probably true.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/crossi...li=BBnbcA1

These are similar to what I would often see from the parking lot at one of my offices. Actually a little deeper behind my office.

Note the elevated freeway in some shots. Many crossings are right in the middle of town.

(06-14-2019 09:40 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 09:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 07:54 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 01:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  [quote='Rice93' pid='16145298' dateline='1560482823']
[quote='OptimisticOwl' pid='16145120' dateline='1560472072']
[quote='Rice93' pid='16144719' dateline='1560454439']
[quote='georgewebb' pid='16144625' dateline='1560451170']

Getting tired of you telling me to not believe my lying eyes. I was here last June, I am here now. I see the difference. Maybe next year, when you have the June 2019 stats, you will too. Why the difference? Maybe more cash. Maybe global warming. Maybe mass delusion. You tell me why. You have the advantage of being 2,000 miles away and using last year’s data.

*sigh* I never said there isn't an uptick of visitors to Las Vegas in June, 2019. I would have no basis to take that position. Maybe there will be 5,000,000 visitors this month. Maybe it will be consistent with previous years. I am just saying that there is no evidence that I could find that suggests that Trump's booming economy has led to more people taking their extra money to Las Vegas when you compare it to 2016 (which is what you suggested in your original post).

Quote:So what are YOU doing with your extra disposable income? Spending it or saving it?

Increasing 529 contributions.

Some people use their gains to fund 529s. I am using my gains to help fund maintaining my invalid sister. Others may buy a car. Others may take a vacation to Vegas. Others may use it to fulfill a lifelong dream of playing in the World Series. Is this such a leap? *sigh*

Agree. But I'm really not the population that deserves the tax break IMO. I'll take it for my kids' 529 (probably if I was a more principled person I'd send the entirety of it to charity). My receiving a tax windfall doesn't help the issue of income inequality.

If people were travelling to Las Vegas more frequently because they had more money in their pocket compared to 2016 then the visitor numbers should reflect that. It's pretty simple.

Deserves? Why should you think you don’t deserve it? Maybe you meant “need”? do you equate need with deserve? Sounds like something I hear from the left a lot. You don’t need it, so you don’t deserve it, so I will take it from you, and give it to those I deem “deserving”. From each according to his ability, t each according to his needs

George asked an interesting question. I would like to hear your answer.

(06-14-2019 09:49 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 07:54 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 01:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  [quote='Rice93' pid='16145298' dateline='1560482823']
[quote='OptimisticOwl' pid='16145120' dateline='1560472072']
[quote='Rice93' pid='16144719' dateline='1560454439']
[quote='georgewebb' pid='16144625' dateline='1560451170']

Getting tired of you telling me to not believe my lying eyes. I was here last June, I am here now. I see the difference. Maybe next year, when you have the June 2019 stats, you will too. Why the difference? Maybe more cash. Maybe global warming. Maybe mass delusion. You tell me why. You have the advantage of being 2,000 miles away and using last year’s data.

*sigh* I never said there isn't an uptick of visitors to Las Vegas in June, 2019. I would have no basis to take that position. Maybe there will be 5,000,000 visitors this month. Maybe it will be consistent with previous years. I am just saying that there is no evidence that I could find that suggests that Trump's booming economy has led to more people taking their extra money to Las Vegas when you compare it to 2016 (which is what you suggested in your original post).

Quote:So what are YOU doing with your extra disposable income? Spending it or saving it?

Increasing 529 contributions.

Isn't that rather selfish? Certainly would be better for society if you contribute that extra income to the IRS for the public good, rather than hoarding it for your own family's private gain. After all, you stated that you're not the kind of person who "deserves" extra income in the first place, so why are you hoarding it? And of course, hoping to convey the benefit of one's wealth to one's children is arguably the most deplorable sentiment of all.

The more we learn, the more it seems that you may not really be a "progressive" after all -- at most, one of their useful innocents.

Well... you just nearly repeated what I said.

"(probably if I was a more principled person I'd send the entirety of it to charity)."

Not sure why you cut that part out other than to take a shot at me for being deplorable.

Yes. If I was a completely principled person I'd find a way to get that tax windfall to the those that deserve it more. Which wouldn't be sending a check to the IRS, mind you. In that way, and in many others, I have fallen short of the ideal. (I have, by the way, increased my charitable contributions)

(06-14-2019 10:18 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  If I was a completely principled person I'd find a way to get that tax windfall to the those that deserve it more.

Who deserves it more? Someone may need it more, but that doesn't mean that he/she deserves it more.

(06-14-2019 10:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 10:18 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  If I was a completely principled person I'd find a way to get that tax windfall to the those that deserve it more.

Who deserves it more? Someone may need it more, but that doesn't mean that he/she deserves it more.

Need is probably a better term than deserve.

It's hard for me to figure out what new tax laws actually do. You guys probably have better insight it seems. I can only go with what I read on the effects of the law 1-2 years in. It seems to me that if not everybody was going to get the same tax break, then the middle class "deserves" it more than the upper tax brackets.

I find this concept of deserve to be fascinating. Do you deserve what you have, or not? Do the people crossing the river deserve it more? How about the guy who cannot get a job because of his prison record? What did he do to deserve that?

I must go, but I would appreciate you explaining how you decide who deserves what, and who they deserve it form, and why.

Back later. Maybe much later.

(06-14-2019 10:18 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 09:49 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 07:54 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 01:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  [quote='Rice93' pid='16145298' dateline='1560482823']
[quote='OptimisticOwl' pid='16145120' dateline='1560472072']
[quote='Rice93' pid='16144719' dateline='1560454439']
[quote='georgewebb' pid='16144625' dateline='1560451170']

Getting tired of you telling me to not believe my lying eyes. I was here last June, I am here now. I see the difference. Maybe next year, when you have the June 2019 stats, you will too. Why the difference? Maybe more cash. Maybe global warming. Maybe mass delusion. You tell me why. You have the advantage of being 2,000 miles away and using last year’s data.

*sigh* I never said there isn't an uptick of visitors to Las Vegas in June, 2019. I would have no basis to take that position. Maybe there will be 5,000,000 visitors this month. Maybe it will be consistent with previous years. I am just saying that there is no evidence that I could find that suggests that Trump's booming economy has led to more people taking their extra money to Las Vegas when you compare it to 2016 (which is what you suggested in your original post).

Quote:So what are YOU doing with your extra disposable income? Spending it or saving it?

Increasing 529 contributions.

Isn't that rather selfish? Certainly would be better for society if you contribute that extra income to the IRS for the public good, rather than hoarding it for your own family's private gain. After all, you stated that you're not the kind of person who "deserves" extra income in the first place, so why are you hoarding it? And of course, hoping to convey the benefit of one's wealth to one's children is arguably the most deplorable sentiment of all.

The more we learn, the more it seems that you may not really be a "progressive" after all -- at most, one of their useful innocents.

Well... you just nearly repeated what I said.

"(probably if I was a more principled person I'd send the entirety of it to charity)."

Not sure why you cut that part out other than to take a shot at me for being deplorable.

Honestly I didn't see that part. I apologize.
To be clear, you're not deplorable by my standards; but you seem at least borderline deplorable by "progressive" standards -- which is a criticism of "progressivism", not of you.

(06-14-2019 10:18 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Yes. If I was a completely principled person I'd find a way to get that tax windfall to the those that deserve it more. Which wouldn't be sending a check to the IRS, mind you.

But "progressives" insist on the opposite: they insist that letting people like you and me direct our money to causes of their choice is a WORSE use than that taking it for the IRS.

(06-14-2019 10:18 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  In that way, and in many others, I have fallen short of the ideal. (I have, by the way, increased my charitablenbcontributions)

My own charitable contributions are disproportionately large and have been for years -- so much so that my accountant says they put me at some risk of audit. Do I win the virtue stakes?

(06-14-2019 09:40 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 09:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 07:54 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 01:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  [quote='Rice93' pid='16145298' dateline='1560482823']
[quote='OptimisticOwl' pid='16145120' dateline='1560472072']
[quote='Rice93' pid='16144719' dateline='1560454439']
[quote='georgewebb' pid='16144625' dateline='1560451170']

Getting tired of you telling me to not believe my lying eyes. I was here last June, I am here now. I see the difference. Maybe next year, when you have the June 2019 stats, you will too. Why the difference? Maybe more cash. Maybe global warming. Maybe mass delusion. You tell me why. You have the advantage of being 2,000 miles away and using last year’s data.

*sigh* I never said there isn't an uptick of visitors to Las Vegas in June, 2019. I would have no basis to take that position. Maybe there will be 5,000,000 visitors this month. Maybe it will be consistent with previous years. I am just saying that there is no evidence that I could find that suggests that Trump's booming economy has led to more people taking their extra money to Las Vegas when you compare it to 2016 (which is what you suggested in your original post).

Quote:So what are YOU doing with your extra disposable income? Spending it or saving it?

Increasing 529 contributions.

Some people use their gains to fund 529s. I am using my gains to help fund maintaining my invalid sister. Others may buy a car. Others may take a vacation to Vegas. Others may use it to fulfill a lifelong dream of playing in the World Series. Is this such a leap? *sigh*

Agree. But I'm really not the population that deserves the tax break IMO.

Some say that the people who actually pay the taxes are those who are deserving of any breaks.

Quote:I'll take it for my kids' 529 (probably if I was a more principled person I'd send the entirety of it to charity). My receiving a tax windfall doesn't help the issue of income inequality.

And what is happening is that you are receiving more freedom to do whatever with the income that *you* earned. 529 it, spend it on hookers and blow, give it to income challenged people, burn it, or invest it. Awesome and simple concept at its core.

The interesting thing is that for every action in that list above (but one) that money is providing a far better multiplier than the government friction stop that taxes represent overall.

And further, one would hope, is that you respect the freedom not only of *your* liberated money, but that of others as well.

I have no issue with you wanting to (and actually performing the action of) use(ing) it to affect income inequality. Your money, your right to to with it as you please. The main issue with progressive stances is that simple respect of those amounts for others typically isnt held.