(06-13-2019 08:23 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  In any case, 93, you are talking about “fairness” a highly subjective judgement, and one with which I dis agree. You want fairness, abolish the graduated income tax and pass the Fair Tax.

But in reference to the Trump tax cuts, I am talking effect. I am saying a better economy helps us all, and that is what those cuts are producing. I don’t see the point in cutting off our noses to spite our faces, even if some segment of society thinks noseless faces are “fairer”.

No I'm not. I referenced the tax cut tissue as a way that the right "wields power" by deciding who gets favorable changes in taxation. When did I discuss "fairness"?

(06-13-2019 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 08:23 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  In any case, 93, you are talking about “fairness” a highly subjective judgement, and one with which I dis agree. You want fairness, abolish the graduated income tax and pass the Fair Tax.

But in reference to the Trump tax cuts, I am talking effect. I am saying a better economy helps us all, and that is what those cuts are producing. I don’t see the point in cutting off our noses to spite our faces, even if some segment of society thinks noseless faces are “fairer”.

No I'm not. I referenced the tax cut tissue as a way that the right "wields power" by deciding who gets favorable changes in taxation. When did I discuss "fairness"?

Sorry. So you think it’s fair that the people who pay the most taxes get the most tax cuts? I see nothing wrong with that, either. In any case, the results are showing.

I have always listed tax policy as one of my top issues. Usually, when I suggest tax cuts, whatever leftist I am talking with goes right to greed and/or fairness.

(06-13-2019 10:06 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I’m in Las Vegas, and the crowds are huuuuuge. I think there are a lot of people who could not afford it in 2016, but now, they have $2-4,000 they can spare. I would guess this crowd would split 80-20 for Trump. All independently minded capitalists and true democrats.

https://www.lvcva.com/stats-and-facts/vi...tatistics/

Per the official Las Vegas Visitor statistics the monthly average visitors in 2016 was 3,578,008.

So far (through April) the 2019 average is 3,473,500.

Looking at the 2018 monthlies it doesn't look like a huge difference when you compare Jan-April to the full twelve months.

But maybe you are right and the tax cuts really kicked in this month and it's a massive Trump celebration over there.

(06-13-2019 10:26 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 08:23 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  In any case, 93, you are talking about “fairness” a highly subjective judgement, and one with which I dis agree. You want fairness, abolish the graduated income tax and pass the Fair Tax.
But in reference to the Trump tax cuts, I am talking effect. I am saying a better economy helps us all, and that is what those cuts are producing. I don’t see the point in cutting off our noses to spite our faces, even if some segment of society thinks noseless faces are “fairer”.

No I'm not. I referenced the tax cut tissue as a way that the right "wields power" by deciding who gets favorable changes in taxation. When did I discuss "fairness"?

Sorry. So you think it’s fair that the people who pay the most taxes get the most tax cuts? I see nothing wrong with that, either. In any case, the results are showing.
I have always listed tax policy as one of my top issues. Usually, when I suggest tax cuts, whatever leftist I am talking with goes right to greed and/or fairness.

But here's the thing with the "fairness" argument. The "rich" pay a larger share of the total tax burden here than in almost any other developed country. So if you determine "fair share" based on world standards, the "rich" are paying substantially more than their "fair share" here.

But of course, they don't want to pay more. So they move investments and income to foreign jurisdictions where they are taxed less. And with investment goes jobs. So the loser in that is the middle class who would be working in those jobs if they were here.

We brought our corporate rates more in line with the rest of the developed world in the 2017 law. So we get a big increase in manufacturing jobs and an increase in the average wage rate, both for the first time in years. It's not rocket science.

(06-13-2019 11:01 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:26 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 08:23 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  In any case, 93, you are talking about “fairness” a highly subjective judgement, and one with which I dis agree. You want fairness, abolish the graduated income tax and pass the Fair Tax.
But in reference to the Trump tax cuts, I am talking effect. I am saying a better economy helps us all, and that is what those cuts are producing. I don’t see the point in cutting off our noses to spite our faces, even if some segment of society thinks noseless faces are “fairer”.

No I'm not. I referenced the tax cut tissue as a way that the right "wields power" by deciding who gets favorable changes in taxation. When did I discuss "fairness"?

Sorry. So you think it’s fair that the people who pay the most taxes get the most tax cuts? I see nothing wrong with that, either. In any case, the results are showing.
I have always listed tax policy as one of my top issues. Usually, when I suggest tax cuts, whatever leftist I am talking with goes right to greed and/or fairness.

But here's the thing with the "fairness" argument. The "rich" pay a larger share of the total tax burden here than in almost any other developed country. So if you determine "fair share" based on world standards, the "rich" are paying substantially more than their "fair share" here.

But of course, they don't want to pay more. So they move investments and income to foreign jurisdictions where they are taxed less. And with investment goes jobs. So the loser in that is the middle class who would be working in those jobs if they were here.

We brought our corporate rates more in line with the rest of the developed world in the 2017 law. So we get a big increase in manufacturing jobs and an increase in the average wage rate, both for the first time in years. It's not rocket science.

The average wage rate has increased quite linearly when you look at the past decade. You are telling me that it didn't increase until the 2017 tax bill was enacted. Are we discussing different terms?

The trouble is that the average wage increase isn't so spiffy when you factor in inflation and increased cost-of-living. That's why American workers aren't feeling like they are experiencing an economic boom despite being told that the economy is booming.

(06-13-2019 09:50 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 08:30 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  The way the tide needs to rise is by increasing wages across the board, which has not happened in decades.

Why do wages need to rise? Wages are just prices, and prices are always relative. What really matters is the standard of living -- the level of consumption that people can afford. As long as that continues to rise -- as it has almost monotonically for the last few centuries -- what difference does it make if wages go up or down?

(06-13-2019 08:30 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  How to cause that to occur is difficult, but strengthening unions and collective bargaining powers is probably the best, and fastest way to do that.

Cartels? That's your economic prescription?

Jobs cartels -- like all cartels -- do a great job of creating barriers to career entry, constricting the availability of jobs, fossilizing industries, discouraging growth, lowering customer service, increasing real costs of everything for everyone, and generating economic rents for cartel members. Which of those outcomes is desirable?

Wages need to rise because cost of living has increased - I didn’t think I had to spell that out. If you look at the largest driver in cost of living (housing), its cost has increased significantly, and far ahead of the stagnant wage.

Those “job cartels” can give the people who create the value for a company a seat at the table and bargaining power. Power has swung too far in favor of the owners of capital and it needs to swing back towards the workers. As Owl#s said, unions can go too far, but the idea that they only generate negative outcomes is what has created a situation where the boats are not rising across the board. The majority of boats in this country are stagnant.

(06-13-2019 10:02 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I see Lad has responded with his oh so predictable Socialist platform - workers of the world, unite!

Again, I refer everybody to The BLS statistics. Higher wages, more take home. Clearly unfair. More employment, less unemployment. How mean.


The Democrats don’t hate prosperity. Mainly, they don’t like to see it as a result of Trump’s actions, and they really don’t like it if it makes getting elected tougher.

Back to the agenda - bring down Trump, and don’t care who it hurts.

Caring about the welfare of workers is not socialist...

Advocating that workers own the means of production, now that is socialism. This is a great example of how the word socialism is needlessly thrown around by those on the right and why it has lost its meaning.

(06-13-2019 10:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:06 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I’m in Las Vegas, and the crowds are huuuuuge. I think there are a lot of people who could not afford it in 2016, but now, they have $2-4,000 they can spare. I would guess this crowd would split 80-20 for Trump. All independently minded capitalists and true democrats.

https://www.lvcva.com/stats-and-facts/vi...tatistics/

Per the official Las Vegas Visitor statistics the monthly average visitors in 2016 was 3,578,008.

So far (through April) the 2019 average is 3,473,500.

Looking at the 2018 monthlies it doesn't look like a huge difference when you compare Jan-April to the full twelve months.

But maybe you are right and the tax cuts really kicked in this month and it's a massive Trump celebration over there.

Shhhhh, you’re not supposed to use facts to dispute feel-good anecdotes.

(06-13-2019 11:01 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:26 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 08:23 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  In any case, 93, you are talking about “fairness” a highly subjective judgement, and one with which I dis agree. You want fairness, abolish the graduated income tax and pass the Fair Tax.
But in reference to the Trump tax cuts, I am talking effect. I am saying a better economy helps us all, and that is what those cuts are producing. I don’t see the point in cutting off our noses to spite our faces, even if some segment of society thinks noseless faces are “fairer”.

No I'm not. I referenced the tax cut tissue as a way that the right "wields power" by deciding who gets favorable changes in taxation. When did I discuss "fairness"?

Sorry. So you think it’s fair that the people who pay the most taxes get the most tax cuts? I see nothing wrong with that, either. In any case, the results are showing.
I have always listed tax policy as one of my top issues. Usually, when I suggest tax cuts, whatever leftist I am talking with goes right to greed and/or fairness.

But here's the thing with the "fairness" argument. The "rich" pay a larger share of the total tax burden here than in almost any other developed country. So if you determine "fair share" based on world standards, the "rich" are paying substantially more than their "fair share" here.

But of course, they don't want to pay more. So they move investments and income to foreign jurisdictions where they are taxed less. And with investment goes jobs. So the loser in that is the middle class who would be working in those jobs if they were here.

We brought our corporate rates more in line with the rest of the developed world in the 2017 law. So we get a big increase in manufacturing jobs and an increase in the average wage rate, both for the first time in years. It's not rocket science.

Have we seen that increase in manufacturing? I remember seeing an article that said the tax law did not create the large capital investments it was touted to create and was overwhelmingly used for dividends and stock buy backs, which disproportionately affect wealthy individuals and not middle to lower class (since they do not generally own stock).

(06-13-2019 10:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:06 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I’m in Las Vegas, and the crowds are huuuuuge. I think there are a lot of people who could not afford it in 2016, but now, they have $2-4,000 they can spare. I would guess this crowd would split 80-20 for Trump. All independently minded capitalists and true democrats.

https://www.lvcva.com/stats-and-facts/vi...tatistics/

Per the official Las Vegas Visitor statistics the monthly average visitors in 2016 was 3,578,008.

So far (through April) the 2019 average is 3,473,500.

Looking at the 2018 monthlies it doesn't look like a huge difference when you compare Jan-April to the full twelve months.

But maybe you are right and the tax cuts really kicked in this month and it's a massive Trump celebration over there.

Damn, you guys will quarrel about anything, if it casts shade on Trump.

Well, now it is June, not April, and the World Series of Poker has kicked in. I have been every year since 2006 save 2009.

I bet the June numbers exceed the average by quite a bit. But the test would be, if the June 2019 numbers exceed the June averages from 2008-2016. You got that?

In any case, I was talking about poker players, not the mindless drones playing the slots. The mindless drones probably break big for the Democrats. But poker players break at least 80-20 conservative/trump.

Poker players rely on their own decisions, not blind luck. They might complain that somebody is Luckier than them, but they don’t expect the dealer to take chips from the big stacks and give them to them because they made a bad decision or didn’t get dealt good cards.

As for Democratic (small d), we sit and play with anybody who has the money to buy in (buy ins range from $500 to $1,000,000 and are not subsidized by the government). Today I have played with players from Iran, India, New Zealand, and dozens of other countries, and probably every state in the Union and every Province of Canada. The players have been black brown, white, male, female and at least one transsexual, and one guy wearing a kilt. I have used the “gender neutral” restroom.
, along with the preceding. Just need to be 21 and pay the entry fee. No discounts for being this or that. Everybody treated the same.

(06-13-2019 10:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:06 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I’m in Las Vegas, and the crowds are huuuuuge. I think there are a lot of people who could not afford it in 2016, but now, they have $2-4,000 they can spare. I would guess this crowd would split 80-20 for Trump. All independently minded capitalists and true democrats.

https://www.lvcva.com/stats-and-facts/vi...tatistics/

Per the official Las Vegas Visitor statistics the monthly average visitors in 2016 was 3,578,008.

So far (through April) the 2019 average is 3,473,500.

Looking at the 2018 monthlies it doesn't look like a huge difference when you compare Jan-April to the full twelve months.

But maybe you are right and the tax cuts really kicked in this month and it's a massive Trump celebration over there.

Damn, you guys will quarrel about anything, if it casts shade on Trump.

Well, now it is June, not April, and the World Series of Poker has kicked in. I have been every year since 2006 save 2009.

I bet the June numbers exceed the average by quite a bit. But the test would be, if the June 2019 numbers exceed the June averages from 2008-2016. You got that?

In any case, I was talking about poker players, not the mindless drones playing the slots. The mindless drones probably break big for the Democrats. But poker players break at least 80-20 conservative/trump.

Poker players rely on their own decisions, not blind luck. They might complain that somebody is Luckier than them, but they don’t expect the dealer to take chips from the big stacks and give them to them because they made a bad decision or didn’t get dealt good cards.

As for Democratic (small d), we sit and play with anybody who has the money to buy in (buy ins range from $500 to $1,000,000 and are not subsidized by the government). Today I have played with players from Iran, India, New Zealand, and dozens of other countries, and probably every state in the Union and every Province of Canada. The players have been black brown, white, male, female and at least one transsexual, and one guy wearing a kilt. I have used the “gender neutral” restroom.
, along with the preceding. Just need to be 21 and pay the entry fee. No discounts for being this or that. Everybody treated the same.

(06-13-2019 01:34 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:06 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I’m in Las Vegas, and the crowds are huuuuuge. I think there are a lot of people who could not afford it in 2016, but now, they have $2-4,000 they can spare. I would guess this crowd would split 80-20 for Trump. All independently minded capitalists and true democrats.

https://www.lvcva.com/stats-and-facts/vi...tatistics/

Per the official Las Vegas Visitor statistics the monthly average visitors in 2016 was 3,578,008.

So far (through April) the 2019 average is 3,473,500.

Looking at the 2018 monthlies it doesn't look like a huge difference when you compare Jan-April to the full twelve months.

But maybe you are right and the tax cuts really kicked in this month and it's a massive Trump celebration over there.

Damn, you guys will quarrel about anything, if it casts shade on Trump.

Well, now it is June, not April, and the World Series of Poker has kicked in. I have been every year since 2006 save 2009.

I bet the June numbers exceed the average by quite a bit. But the test would be, if the June 2019 numbers exceed the June averages from 2008-2016. You got that?

In any case, I was talking about poker players, not the mindless drones playing the slots. The mindless drones probably break big for the Democrats. But poker players break at least 80-20 conservative/trump.

Poker players rely on their own decisions, not blind luck. They might complain that somebody is Luckier than them, but they don’t expect the dealer to take chips from the big stacks and give them to them because they made a bad decision or didn’t get dealt good cards.

As for Democratic (small d), we sit and play with anybody who has the money to buy in (buy ins range from $500 to $1,000,000 and are not subsidized by the government). Today I have played with players from Iran, India, New Zealand, and dozens of other countries, and probably every state in the Union and every Province of Canada. The players have been black brown, white, male, female and at least one transsexual, and one guy wearing a kilt. I have used the “gender neutral” restroom.
, along with the preceding. Just need to be 21 and pay the entry fee. No discounts for being this or that. Everybody treated the same.

I really like poker games. If only I really liked poker!

(06-13-2019 01:39 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 01:34 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 10:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  [quote='OptimisticOwl' pid='16144257' dateline='1560438375']
I’m in Las Vegas, and the crowds are huuuuuge. I think there are a lot of people who could not afford it in 2016, but now, they have $2-4,000 they can spare. I would guess this crowd would split 80-20 for Trump. All independently minded capitalists and true democrats.

https://www.lvcva.com/stats-and-facts/vi...tatistics/

Per the official Las Vegas Visitor statistics the monthly average visitors in 2016 was 3,578,008.

So far (through April) the 2019 average is 3,473,500.

Looking at the 2018 monthlies it doesn't look like a huge difference when you compare Jan-April to the full twelve months.

But maybe you are right and the tax cuts really kicked in this month and it's a massive Trump celebration over there.

Damn, you guys will quarrel about anything, if it casts shade on Trump.

I just thought it was an interesting post. Here I am in Las Vegas and it is crowded. Therefore the tax cuts are working?

Quote:Well, now it is June, not April, and the World Series of Poker has kicked in. I have been every year since 2006 save 2009.

I bet the June numbers exceed the average by quite a bit. But the test would be, if the June 2019 numbers exceed the June averages from 2008-2016. You got that?

]

Yes. I got it. That is why I specifically referenced the monthlies for the previous year. Do you think there is something specific about June as opposed to April when it comes to visitors enjoying their massive tax breaks? Or is it just the serious poker players that got the tax cut?

Quote:In any case, I was talking about poker players, not the mindless drones playing the slots. The mindless drones probably break big for the Democrats.

Ummmm... OK. Sure. In the interest of not appearing combative let’s just let this one slide.

Quote:Poker players rely on their own decisions, not blind luck. They might complain that somebody is Luckier than them, but they don’t expect the dealer to take chips from the big stacks and give them to them because they made a bad decision or didn’t get dealt good cards.

As for Democratic (small d), we sit and play with anybody who has the money to buy in (buy ins range from $500 to $1,000,000 and are not subsidized by the government). Today I have played with players from Iran, India, New Zealand, and dozens of other countries, and probably every state in the Union and every Province of Canada. The players have been black brown, white, male, female and at least one transsexual, and one guy wearing a kilt. I have used the “gender neutral” restroom.
, along with the preceding. Just need to be 21 and pay the entry fee. No discounts for being this or that. Everybody treated the same.

Definitely one of the best things about sports, games, and competitions in general. They are very small-d democratizing.

(06-13-2019 02:33 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Definitely one of the best things about sports, games, and competitions in general. They are very small-d democratizing.

Since this is at heart a sports board, I'll put one of my favorite ideas up for discussion. I wish the US took international sports more seriously. The atmosphere at an international soccer or rugby match is a heck of a lot more patriotic than standing for the national anthem at the start of a baseball or football game. Representing your country means a lot more to those athletes. American athletes tend to focus solely on money.

(06-13-2019 02:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 02:33 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Definitely one of the best things about sports, games, and competitions in general. They are very small-d democratizing.

Since this is at heart a sports board, I'll put one of my favorite ideas up for discussion. I wish the US took international sports more seriously. The atmosphere at an international soccer or rugby match is a heck of a lot more patriotic than standing for the national anthem at the start of a baseball or football game. Representing your country means a lot more to those athletes. American athletes tend to focus solely on money.

Totally agree. International competition is incredibly fun. It is good to be able to express patriotism once in a while.

Not sure American athletes are any different from other athletes. The biggest international events are soccer’s World Cup and the Olympics. American athletes think it is a huge honor to represent the United States in these competitions.

(06-13-2019 03:06 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 02:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 02:33 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Definitely one of the best things about sports, games, and competitions in general. They are very small-d democratizing.

Since this is at heart a sports board, I'll put one of my favorite ideas up for discussion. I wish the US took international sports more seriously. The atmosphere at an international soccer or rugby match is a heck of a lot more patriotic than standing for the national anthem at the start of a baseball or football game. Representing your country means a lot more to those athletes. American athletes tend to focus solely on money.

Totally agree. International competition is incredibly fun. It is good to be able to express patriotism once in a while.

Not sure American athletes are any different from other athletes. The biggest international events are soccer’s World Cup and the Olympics. American athletes think it is a huge honor to represent the United States in these competitions.

Heck yes! If I ran for President, this would be the first plank in my platform. Go Yanks!

One of my favorite sports trivia questions finally ended in 2017. In 104 years prior to that point, South Africa had never beaten France in rugby at Johannesburg. It was strange because South Africa dominated the overall series, but had never won in Johannesburg, which is always a hard place for European sides to play because of the altitude.

Pow.... right in the kisser.....

Max punis (22 million) thrown at Oberlin College --- how many tuitions does the 33+ million total damages represent?

Edited to add:
plus attorneys fees --- with the standard 'through trial arrangement' this could be another 17 million or so. I wonder how long Dean Raimondo has a job there.

(06-13-2019 03:27 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Pow.... right in the kisser.....
Max punis (22 million) thrown at Oberlin College --- how many tuitions does the 33+ million total damages represent?
Edited to add:
plus attorneys fees --- with the standard 'through trial arrangement' this could be another 17 million or so. I wonder how long Dean Raimondo has a job there.

They'll circle the wagons, but I'm not sure how much good it will do.

(06-13-2019 03:06 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 02:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-13-2019 02:33 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Definitely one of the best things about sports, games, and competitions in general. They are very small-d democratizing.

Since this is at heart a sports board, I'll put one of my favorite ideas up for discussion. I wish the US took international sports more seriously. The atmosphere at an international soccer or rugby match is a heck of a lot more patriotic than standing for the national anthem at the start of a baseball or football game. Representing your country means a lot more to those athletes. American athletes tend to focus solely on money.

Totally agree. International competition is incredibly fun. It is good to be able to express patriotism once in a while.

Not sure American athletes are any different from other athletes. The biggest international events are soccer’s World Cup and the Olympics. American athletes think it is a huge honor to represent the United States in these competitions.

I do wish we paid more attention to the other sports that have more international appeal. In Europe, you see a lot more regular coverage of track and field and other sports where the country you're from is a part of your identity.

It's true, though, that every 4 years (when we make the World Cup), you see a lot of american flags being waved and that people are generally more patriotic. Something about "friendly" competition brings those emotions out for all to see.