georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

blah Wrote:I call B.S.

Voting for someone that has the same religious views as you does not equal voting for a theocracy, as much as you would like to spin it that way.

Those people did exactly what you wanted them to do (i.e. find the candidate that best represents you) and then you ridiculed them for it.

Clearly you've not talked to the typical Huckabee supporter, especially in the South. Huckabee gobbled up 4 out of 5 of the "religion matters" vote. Talking to them in the local party (since I am a committeeman)

It is funny to me that you have no problem doing to Huckabee what you lambaste Fox and other media for doing to Paul and his supporters. It seems very hypocritical.

Since you seem so obsessed with and cannot get beyond Huckabee how about if we look at Romney. He tried his best to leave his beliefs out of his run at the presidency and has a past history (governorship) of not using his beliefs in his position. Yet fellow Mormons, almost unanimously supported him (as evidenced by the Utah and Nevada votes).

Fo Shizzle Wrote:I advocate the end of government and I embrace free and voluntary interaction among people using the principles of non agression in a totally free market society.
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anarchy is impossible, there is always Order in Disorder, always. Thats not me, thats science and human nature. What you are advocating is what amounts to an alternative government to replace the greatest system ever created. I.e. the Mafia and other strong men to replace an elected civil govt. with a balance of powers.


libertarianism has so many internal contradictions its hard to keep count, but with the way the world is versus how we wish it was, makes it not possible in pure, utopian form just like communism.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:Does every thread have to turn into a Ron Paul fest? The dude is an afterthought, except on internet message boards and blogs.

I'm so sick of the SHEEPLE in this country who think an election is a high school class president popularity contest........

It's downright depressing how stupid the average American is.

Indeed, you are a prime example

Quote:Interesting side note:


Ron Paul has 2.5 times more donations from active military than anybody else running. The next closest is Obama ... with McCain an even further distant third.

yes, in the alternate world of spin-land where like a good liberal you invent some sort of "absolute moral authority' card to pimp out for a Racist, conspiratorial nutball candidate.

Lonestar Times: Do the Military really support Ron Paul?

short answer: by the same percentage as the rest of the population.

OpenSecrets by Sector: http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/sectors.asp?sec=D

Defense likely includes not just military but all the defense contractors, McCain has more than Paul there.

and Jonah Goldberg had a post on this, Paul forced his contributors to mark an industry while none of the others did whether true or not:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q...Y5ZDRhMDY=

4th quarter, McCain had around $2 Million in contributions from those that did not mark an employer. Paul, who had a big fundraising quarter, targeting his allies in places like Syria and "Occupied Palestine", has a grand whopping total of $8,653 bucks out of 18 million, that did not mark an employer.

McCain: http://query.nictusa.com/pres/2007/YE/C0...30470.html

Paul: http://query.nictusa.com/pres/2007/YE/C0...32914.html

GGniner Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:I advocate the end of government and I embrace free and voluntary interaction among people using the principles of non agression in a totally free market society.
[/b]

anarchy is impossible, there is always Order in Disorder, always. Thats not me, thats science and human nature. What you are advocating is what amounts to an alternative government to replace the greatest system ever created. I.e. the Mafia and other strong men to replace an elected civil govt. with a balance of powers.


libertarianism has so many internal contradictions its hard to keep count, but with the way the world is versus how we wish it was, makes it not possible in pure, utopian form just like communism.

I would agree that replacing one system of government with another and obtaining liberty is impossible...since you simply are taking the gun away from one form and tranposing it to another seeking power. The only government I advocate as a replacement is "self government"

Government can NOT be kept small...it is impossible...Our system has proved that.

Libertarianism is not contradictory...Libertarians are.

Ron Paul is not a true libertarian...He is part of the infrastructure of the force of government...which is totally contradictory to libertarian principles.

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:Does every thread have to turn into a Ron Paul fest?

Only the ones that don't turn into slugfests over evolution and creationism. :)

The three legged stool of msg. boards

There's a good all "theocracy" down there in SC:

Quote:That the Christian religion is the true religion.
-- South Carolina Constitution 1778

That there is one eternal God, and a future state of rewards and punishments.
-- South Carolina Constitution 1778

The Christian Protestant religion shall be deemed, and is hereby constituted and declared to be, the established religion of this State.
-- South Carolina Constitution 1778

Quote:The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.
-- U.S. Congress, 1782

hmmm?

Quote:Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. ---George Washington, "theocrat"

It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor.
-- George Washington in his Thanksgiving Day proclamation

the same man, along with the likes of Thomas Jefferson and the other founders who held Church services in the Supreme Court, national cathederal and hired a priest to open Congress with.


and of course Governor Thomas Jefferson was a real "theocrat" in Virginia...outlawing Sodomy and all...

Quote:The Law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.


-- John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Quote:Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.
-- John Jay

Quote:This law of nature, being coeval with mankind and dictated by God himself, is or course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe in all countries, and at all times; no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this.
-- William Blackstone (1765)

Quote:W]e all came to these parts of America, with one and the same end and aim, namely, to advance the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ.
-- New England Confederation of 1643

Quote:Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.
-- Jedediah Morse

Fo Shizzle Wrote:Libertarianism is not contradictory...Libertarians are.

then explain how the "live and let live" philosophy(i.e. sin in many cases) that includes the attack on marriage and the family unit, finds nothing wrong with the rise of out of wedlock births, etc. leading to lack of parenting, responsible father figure, leading to out of control kids which leads to drug use and higher crimes and so on... Works with say, private property rights? If you don't have moral parents to teach kids growing up respect for others "private property" and right/wrong then who does? The govt. is who ends up taking up the role, unfortunately.

the fundamental problem with libertarianism is it doesn't have a moral base, its amoral. you need a society with the same values that respects self-rule and has a moral code it lives by. The more you get away from that, the more govt. you get usually.

Libertarianism has to be responsible and needs a moral base, some laws will be needed. The way the world is changing, not only are we dependent on these things here but for them to flourish elsewhere in the world. Jihad has to die for the same reason that totalitarian communism and facsism had to. unless you want to give up completely our way of life, build a massive fortress around our borders and move everyone out of cities and go back to everyone farming their own food, etc. live like Quakers basically.....even that would have problems with the rest of the world.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:Separation of church and state. Religious views and political views should be wholly separate... and you should vote entirely based upon the second of the two.

This is not a theocracy, no matter how much Huckabee, Haggard, and Robertson want it to be.

Does your brain function anymore? People's political beliefs stem from what they believe at their core. You can not fully separate someone's religious beliefs from their political beliefs. Suggesting that someone has to do that when they vote is not only ludicrous, but impossible.

Basically, what you continue to say is that if someone does not believe exactly like you do, then they are idiots. Sheesh man....

GGniner Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:Libertarianism is not contradictory...Libertarians are.

then explain how the "live and let live" philosophy(i.e. sin in many cases) that includes the attack on marriage and the family unit, finds nothing wrong with the rise of out of wedlock births, etc. leading to lack of parenting, responsible father figure, leading to out of control kids which leads to drug use and higher crimes and so on... Works with say, private property rights? If you don't have moral parents to teach kids growing up respect for others "private property" and right/wrong then who does? The govt. is who ends up taking up the role, unfortunately.

the fundamental problem with libertarianism is it doesn't have a moral base, its amoral. you need a society with the same values that respects self-rule and has a moral code it lives by. The more you get away from that, the more govt. you get usually.

Libertarianism has to be responsible and needs a moral base, some laws will be needed. The way the world is changing, not only are we dependent on these things here but for them to flourish elsewhere in the world. Jihad has to die for the same reason that totalitarian communism and facsism had to. unless you want to give up completely our way of life, build a massive fortress around our borders and move everyone out of cities and go back to everyone farming their own food, etc. live like Quakers basically.....even that would have problems with the rest of the world.

Responsiblily and morality?...

True libertarianism is the MOST moral and responsible of philosophies..."Do NO harm" is hardly immoral or irresponsible.

The fundamental problem with libertariansim is that there are few true libertariains..most just meld the concepts into their present construct of statism.

Im sorry your paradigm is so intrenched in statism that you cant conceive of any other reality...Its sad that people dont have enough confidence in their own ablilty to interact with others without mommy government standing watch..telling them what to do.

Ive moved beyond the need for anyone to RULE over my life ...Govt, Family, Friends...you name it...Im capable of voluntary interaction and enjoy it...I remove those from my life that choose to weild power over me...Unfortunately Im not ready for our government torture camps and must follow a minimum amount of govt. in my life...Im a slave...but I reject slavery....You are a slave and live in the masters house.

Vote on what you stand for ... EXCEPT religion. Separation of church and state directly implies voting with the same separation.

GGniner:

- How does the SC state constitution have anything to do with the US federal government?
- A few quotes by Thomas Jefferson, my hero, which shows you have no clue about him:
--- "Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a Censor - over each other."
--- "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
--- "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
--- "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. "
--- "In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty."
--- "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

Bonus Jefferson quotes that starkly contrast with your neocon view:
--- "Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto."
--- "Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies."
--- "A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."
--- "I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind."
--- "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. "
--- "Leave no authority existing not responsible to the people. "

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:Vote on what you stand for ... EXCEPT religion. Separation of church and state directly implies voting with the same separation.

GGniner:

- How does the SC state constitution have anything to do with the US federal government?
- A few quotes by Thomas Jefferson, my hero, which shows you have no clue about him:
--- "Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a Censor - over each other."
--- "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
--- "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
--- "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. "
--- "In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty."
--- "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

Bonus Jefferson quotes that starkly contrast with your neocon view:
--- "Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto."
--- "Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies."
--- "A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."
--- "I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind."
--- "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. "
--- "Leave no authority existing not responsible to the people. "

I wonder what he would think of the American experiment today?

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:Vote on what you stand for ... EXCEPT religion. Separation of church and state directly implies voting with the same separation.

I noticed you didn't address my comment on Romney....

blah Wrote:

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:Vote on what you stand for ... EXCEPT religion. Separation of church and state directly implies voting with the same separation.

I noticed you didn't address my comment on Romney....

I'm going based on exit polls. Romney's support may have been overwhelmingly mormon, strongly implying they voted based on religion, HOWEVER .... in exit polling the number of people voting for Romney who considered religion "very important" was only marginally higher than McCain or anybody else. The mormons who voted for Romney because he's mormon can go theocracy-f*** themselves just as much as a theocracy-lite Huckabee supporter can.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

blah Wrote:

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:Vote on what you stand for ... EXCEPT religion. Separation of church and state directly implies voting with the same separation.

I noticed you didn't address my comment on Romney....

I'm going based on exit polls. Romney's support may have been overwhelmingly mormon, strongly implying they voted based on religion, HOWEVER .... in exit polling the number of people voting for Romney who considered religion "very important" was only marginally higher than McCain or anybody else. The mormons who voted for Romney because he's mormon can go theocracy-f*** themselves just as much as a theocracy-lite Huckabee supporter can.

So you admit that Romney didn't show any sign whatsoever of his religion, yet he was supported almost unanimously by those that follow the same religion as him. Why is it so hard to believe that people might want to vote for someone that they relate to and one that they think will represent them?

At the end of the day I really believe that is the biggest problem with Ron Paul. Very few people, outside of the tech world, can relate to the man. He may make perfect sense to you, but then you are obviously in the minority.