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RE: New Realignment Thread - Tomball Owl - 01-04-2022 11:31 AM
(01-04-2022 12:51 AM)75src Wrote: All on the road since Rice did not have a stadium the first year.
(12-19-2021 08:17 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:(12-19-2021 05:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:(12-19-2021 05:38 PM)franklyconfused Wrote: I think it's most likely that they move their track somewhere else on campus to build more densely in the current stadium.
I don't know where they could do that on campus. The upper level at Pritchett has a track, but it's in horrible shape, and there's no room for stands or concessions or parking.
History note: Rice's first football game (also Sam Houston's) was played at Pritchett in 1912. Rice won, 20-6.
According to Rice's Football Fact Book, the game at Sam Houston State was the Owls' third game of the 1912 season ... but the first intercollegiate contest.
Code:
1912 (3-2)
Coach: Phil Arbuckle
O26 at Houston HS W 7-6
O30 at Orange HS W 13-0
N9 at Sam Houston State W 20-6
N15 at Southwestern L 32-0
N28 at Austin College L 81-0
That loss to the Austin College Roos, Rice’s most lopsided loss ever, still stings. One advantage to moving to D3 in football is the opportunity to avenge that one. Probably the only advantage as long as the Owls play them soon after the move as Rice will likely quickly migrate to the bottom of D3.
Be bold. Unconventional wisdom. Yeah, right.
RE: New Realignment Thread - Hambone10 - 01-04-2022 11:55 AM
(01-04-2022 03:10 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:(12-20-2021 04:21 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote: Were you able to find a quote from Coach Arbuckle about "pounding the rock"?
Pounding the rock was all that anybody did in 1912. The forward pass did not become a major weapon until the Notre Dame combination of Gus Dorais to Knute Rockne used it to beat Army 35-13 in 1913.
Ironic, given Army's current penchant for 'pounding the rock' to remain competitive against schools like Notre Dame
RE: New Realignment Thread - WRCisforgotten79 - 01-04-2022 06:48 PM
(01-04-2022 11:55 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:(01-04-2022 03:10 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:(12-20-2021 04:21 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote: Were you able to find a quote from Coach Arbuckle about "pounding the rock"?
Pounding the rock was all that anybody did in 1912. The forward pass did not become a major weapon until the Notre Dame combination of Gus Dorais to Knute Rockne used it to beat Army 35-13 in 1913.
Ironic, given Army's current penchant for 'pounding the rock' to remain competitive against schools like Notre Dame
Since 1998, Army has played Notre Dame just 3 times:
2006 - Notre Dame 41, Army 9
2010 - Notre Dame 27, Army 3
2016 - Notre Dame 44, Army 6
The schools have no games against each other on future schedules.
RE: New Realignment Thread - franklyconfused - 01-04-2022 07:27 PM
(01-04-2022 06:48 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:(01-04-2022 11:55 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:(01-04-2022 03:10 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:(12-20-2021 04:21 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote: Were you able to find a quote from Coach Arbuckle about "pounding the rock"?
Pounding the rock was all that anybody did in 1912. The forward pass did not become a major weapon until the Notre Dame combination of Gus Dorais to Knute Rockne used it to beat Army 35-13 in 1913.
Ironic, given Army's current penchant for 'pounding the rock' to remain competitive against schools like Notre Dame
Since 1998, Army has played Notre Dame just 3 times:
2006 - Notre Dame 41, Army 9
2010 - Notre Dame 27, Army 3
2016 - Notre Dame 44, Army 6
The schools have no games against each other on future schedules.
Navy does play Notre Dame annually, though (excepting a COVID cancellation mandated by the ACC). In their last 10 meetings, Navy won once, in 2016. Navy finished that season with 9 wins to ND's 4, so the Midshipmen needed an unusually good year for themselves to coincide with a very poor year for Notre Dame to eek out a 1-pt win in South Bend. Of Navy's 9 losses to ND in the last 10 games, only 3 were within 10 points. It's hard to call that series "competitive" by any stretch of the imagination when Notre Dame is near guaranteed to win and more likely than not to win by at least three scores.
Turning back to Army, while they are no doubt performing better than us, I don't see how one could say they're world beaters. They had their moment at Oklahoma, and they're certainly winning more games than we do, but their SOS is regularly as weak as ours. Navy's SoS has hovered around the 80s-60s, Army's 75-120s, and ours 76-120. Monken has Army regularly winning 8+ games per year against cupcakes. Their "signature" performances would be a win vs. WF 2016 (Deacs finished with a 7-6 record), a narrow 2017 bowl win over 10-2 SDSU, a destruction of Houston in a bowl in 2018 (Applewhite's last game), a narrow bowl win a few weeks ago against Missouri, and the 2018 OT loss at #5 Oklahoma. Out of 58 wins under Monken, there's maybe 4 worth talking about, never more than one a year, and the only convincing victory was over a coach who probably knew he was fired before kickoff.
While I do think Army is a better team than Rice (and would still think so even if we didn't have recent head-to-head proof of it), they're not an elite team by any measure. I think if they were going to play in a conference, they'd fit in the top quartile of C-USA/MAC or mid Sun Belt, certainly not high American/MWC or low P5. Scraping out narrow wins against middling P5 teams may make headlines but isn't better than a team like UAB or Coastal Carolina.
To note, Navy's SoS is so much higher than Army's because, between the conference schedule, the Commander in Chief series, and the annual Notre Dame game, they only have one free spot left for a cupcake. I imagine Air Force isn't far off with only two free spots per year.
RE: New Realignment Thread - Owl 69/70/75 - 01-04-2022 10:07 PM
Let's assume for the sake of discussion that Army, Navy, Air Force, and Rice play approximately the same difficulty of schedule, and face recruiting situations that limit their fields of candidates similarly, with some common disadvantages (academic standards) and some advantages/disadvantages that probably are pretty much a push (military commitment after graduation versus bringing in more potential players). Therefore they are probably pretty close comparables. Let's assume further that the last 20 years is a pretty good time period to compare.
Over that period (2002-2021), a quick check of their cumulative records reveals:
Navy 150-104
Air Force 139-106
Army 94-151 (note 58-43 under Jeff Monken from 2014-21, so 36-108 previously)
Rice 89-149
Maybe none of the service academies are world beaters, but the point would seem pretty clear that they are as a group outperforming Rice by a significant margin, particularly in the last 8 years.
New Realignment Thread - markbrindley - 01-05-2022 01:35 AM
(01-04-2022 10:07 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: Let's assume for the sake of discussion that Army, Navy, Air Force, and Rice play approximately the same difficulty of schedule, and face recruiting situations that limit their fields of candidates similarly, with some common disadvantages (academic standards) and some advantages/disadvantages that probably are pretty much a push (military commitment after graduation versus bringing in more potential players). Therefore they are probably pretty close comparables. Let's assume further that the last 20 years is a pretty good time period to compare.
Over that period (2002-2021), a quick check of their cumulative records reveals:
Navy 150-104
Air Force 139-106
Army 94-151 (note 58-43 under Jeff Monken from 2014-21, so 36-108 previously)
Rice 89-149
Maybe none of the service academies are world beaters, but the point would seem pretty clear that they are as a group outperforming Rice by a significant margin, particularly in the last 8 years.
Just making the assumption that they have the same advantages/disadvantages is a complete misnomer. The academies have their prep schools to recruit kids into which increases their numbers substantially. Add that to the fact that they don’t have scholarship limitations and their numbers swell in comparison to what We can bring in every year. You’re making an apples to oranges comparison and calling them equal.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
RE: New Realignment Thread - Hambone10 - 01-05-2022 09:10 AM
Jesus this forum is full of incredibly detailed people
They do it to TRY and remain MORE competitive with schools like Notre Dame. And while I used Army as an example, as someone noted... it applies equally to Navy and Air Force.... but neither Navy nor Air Force heavily engaged in 'the forward pass' 100 years ago to try and be competitive with Notre Dame. I found it ironic that the pass is today what the run was back then, and vice versa... The point remains that they engage in the wishbone, not because it is popular or is good at coming from behind, but because they ALL believe that it makes them more competitive... and the evidence DOES seem to bear that out. 'more' is of course not well defined. And of course, we don't know that they wouldn't have lost by even more if they'd run the run and shoot.
Frankly.... how many of our last 10 games against UT have been decided by fewer than 10 points?
RE: New Realignment Thread - GoodOwl - 01-05-2022 11:21 AM
(01-04-2022 10:07 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: Let's assume for the sake of discussion that Army, Navy, Air Force, and Rice play approximately the same difficulty of schedule, and face recruiting situations that limit their fields of candidates similarly, with some common disadvantages (academic standards) and some advantages/disadvantages that probably are pretty much a push (military commitment after graduation versus bringing in more potential players). Therefore they are probably pretty close comparables. Let's assume further that the last 20 years is a pretty good time period to compare.
Over that period (2002-2021), a quick check of their cumulative records reveals:
Navy 150-104
Air Force 139-106
Army 94-151 (note 58-43 under Jeff Monken from 2014-21, so 36-108 previously)
Rice 89-149
Maybe none of the service academies are world beaters, but the point would seem pretty clear that they are as a group outperforming Rice by a significant margin, particularly in the last 8 years.
Who have their respective Head Coaches been?
Navy:
2002-2007 Paul Johnson* 45-29-0 .608
2008-Present Ken Niumatalolo 105-75-0 .583
*Paul Clayton Johnson departed Navy to become Head Coach at Georgia Tech after the end of the 2007 regular season. From 2008-2018 at Georgia Tech he compiled a 82-61 .573 record.
Air Force:
2002-2006 Fisher DeBerry** 28-31 .475 retired
2007-Present Troy Calhoun 111-75 .597
**James Fisher DeBerry retired on December 15, 2006 with the most wins and highest winning percentage (.608) in the history of Air Force football. He was inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame as a coach in 2011.
Army:
2002-2003 Todd Berry*** 1-17 .056 fired after 0-6 start in 2003
2003 John Mumford 0-7 .000 interim HC, not retained
2004-2006 Bobby Ross 9-25 .265 Ross retired from coaching in 2007
2007-2008 Stan Brock 6-18 .250 Brock was fired on Dec. 12, 2008
2009-2013 Rich Ellerson 20-41 .328 After a loss to Navy in December 2013, Army administration fired Ellerson
2014-Present Jeff Monken 58-43 .574****
***Todd Berry has the lowest winning percentage of any Army head coach who served as Head Coach for more than six games (Mumford was an interim).
**** Jeff Monken is the winningest Army Head Coach since 1959-1961 Dale Hall 16-11-2 .586
Rice:
2002-2005 Ken Hatfield 13-32 .289 resigned at end 2005
2006 Todd Graham 7-6 .538 extended, given raise but left for Tulsa only a few days later
2007-2017 Doughnut Bailiff 57-80 .416 fired at end 2017
2018-Present Mike Bloomgren***** 11-31 .262
*****Mike Bloomgren is the losingest Rice Head Coach since 1986-1988 Jerry Berndt 6-27 .182
RE: New Realignment Thread - OptimisticOwl - 01-05-2022 11:30 AM
I think we are all missing the point here. Now that we have achieved our goal of leaping out of CUSA into the AAC, where do we want to jump next and how will we induce them to invite us without winning any games. I vote for continued reliance on our academics and the city of Houston to get us into the Big12 or the Pac12 or the something12..
RE: New Realignment Thread - Owl 69/70/75 - 01-05-2022 12:39 PM
(01-05-2022 01:35 AM)markbrindley Wrote:(01-04-2022 10:07 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: Let's assume for the sake of discussion that Army, Navy, Air Force, and Rice play approximately the same difficulty of schedule, and face recruiting situations that limit their fields of candidates similarly, with some common disadvantages (academic standards) and some advantages/disadvantages that probably are pretty much a push (military commitment after graduation versus bringing in more potential players). Therefore they are probably pretty close comparables. Let's assume further that the last 20 years is a pretty good time period to compare.Just making the assumption that they have the same advantages/disadvantages is a complete misnomer. The academies have their prep schools to recruit kids into which increases their numbers substantially. Add that to the fact that they don’t have scholarship limitations and their numbers swell in comparison to what We can bring in every year. You’re making an apples to oranges comparison and calling them equal.
Over that period (2002-2021), a quick check of their cumulative records reveals:
Navy 150-104
Air Force 139-106
Army 94-151 (note 58-43 under Jeff Monken from 2014-21, so 36-108 previously)
Rice 89-149
Maybe none of the service academies are world beaters, but the point would seem pretty clear that they are as a group outperforming Rice by a significant margin, particularly in the last 8 years.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
But I’m not making the assumption that they are the same.
My point there is that there are offsetting advantages that you are omitting. Rice does not require a military commitment, which is a promise to support and defend your country with anything you have, up to and including your life. Literally. A lot of 18-year-olds are not willing or ready to make that commitment, Another advantage unique to Rice is being located in Houston, where there are enough athletes to win a national championship within an hour’s drive of the campus.
I don’t know which way the pendulum swings when all factors are considered, but my guess is that it’s about a push.
RE: New Realignment Thread - Grungy - 01-05-2022 01:11 PM
When searching for info about size limits as a possible factor for the academies running their offenses, I found this article.
https://www.inquirer.com/college-sports/army-navy-football-philadelphia-chris-gessell-20181207.html
The limits apply to graduating, not matriculating.
I'm somewhat surprised to see that the academies allow the players to far exceed the limits, as long as they reach them by commencement.
RE: New Realignment Thread - Owl 69/70/75 - 01-05-2022 01:33 PM
(01-05-2022 01:11 PM)Grungy Wrote: When searching for info about size limits as a possible factor for the academies running their offenses, I found this article.
https://www.inquirer.com/college-sports/army-navy-football-philadelphia-chris-gessell-20181207.html
The limits apply to graduating, not matriculating.
I'm somewhat surprised to see that the academies allow the players to far exceed the limits, as long as they reach them by commencement.
Another offset that I should have included in my post immediately above
RE: New Realignment Thread - Hambone10 - 01-05-2022 03:09 PM
(01-05-2022 01:11 PM)Grungy Wrote: When searching for info about size limits as a possible factor for the academies running their offenses, I found this article.
https://www.inquirer.com/college-sports/army-navy-football-philadelphia-chris-gessell-20181207.html
The limits apply to graduating, not matriculating.
I'm somewhat surprised to see that the academies allow the players to far exceed the limits, as long as they reach them by commencement.
David Robinson was a perfect example. As a Submariner, he had height restrictions which he outgrew by a lot... so he changed billets to a non-combat role.
There are plenty of differences between us an the academies, but the biggest similarities are that they can't just go out and recruit the best athletes like so many other places can. They expect their athletes to graduate, and ask a lot of them... a lot more than we ask of ours...
The point isn't that we are 'just like them'... the point is that they (the academies) are at a similar disadvantage to many of the schools they play... and they deploy a contrarian scheme as part of their attempt to mitigate that disadvantage. I'm not saying we should run the bone... but I DO think we would benefit from a similarly contrarian approach.... and not try and beat all these other teams while essentially running the same schemes.
RE: New Realignment Thread - GoodOwl - 01-05-2022 09:11 PM
Murray State Racers to MVC
...joins Belmont in leaving the OVC.
RE: New Realignment Thread - GoodOwl - 01-05-2022 09:14 PM
Interesting...SEC now has an exit fee...who's going to want to leave the SEC?
(01-04-2022 11:50 AM)johnbragg Wrote: https://twitter.com/SportsBizMiss/status/1478404749129285632
https://businessofcollegesports.com/other/sec-quietly-adds-exit-fee-to-conference-bylaws/
$30M upon notice of withdrawal, or $45 if member is "deemed to have withdrawn".
If nothing else, this helps position UT and OU to argue that 4 years of Big 12 distribution, or the Big 12 holding on to UT and OU's TV rights for nothing, is an "exit penalty" and not "liquidated damages"
RE: New Realignment Thread - AusTexDawg - 01-06-2022 11:46 AM
(01-05-2022 09:14 PM)GoodOwl Wrote: Interesting...SEC now has an exit fee...who's going to want to leave the SEC?
This may be a hedge against the top six or eight teams leaving the SEC to form a compact super-conference with schools like Notre Dame, Clemson, Ohio State, Penn State, Southern Cal, etc.
RE: New Realignment Thread - OptimisticOwl - 01-06-2022 12:59 PM
(01-06-2022 11:46 AM)AusTexDawg Wrote:(01-05-2022 09:14 PM)GoodOwl Wrote: Interesting...SEC now has an exit fee...who's going to want to leave the SEC?
This may be a hedge against the top six or eight teams leaving the SEC to form a compact super-conference with schools like Notre Dame, Clemson, Ohio State, Penn State, Southern Cal, etc.
Sort of like the exodus from the SWC to form the Big12?
RE: New Realignment Thread - GoodOwl - 02-12-2022 01:03 PM
(01-06-2022 12:59 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:(01-06-2022 11:46 AM)AusTexDawg Wrote:(01-05-2022 09:14 PM)GoodOwl Wrote: Interesting...SEC now has an exit fee...who's going to want to leave the SEC?
This may be a hedge against the top six or eight teams leaving the SEC to form a compact super-conference with schools like Notre Dame, Clemson, Ohio State, Penn State, Southern Cal, etc.
Sort of like the exodus from the SWC to form the Big12?
Well, with ODU, South Miss and Marshall announcing today that they're leaving at the end of this school year in June, 2022, wonder if we can et out of Dodge any faster as well? I mean, the "damages" wed' potentially have to forfeit would have to be minimal as CUSA has such a terrible tv deal it has next to no value.
RE: New Realignment Thread - franklyconfused - 02-12-2022 02:13 PM
(02-12-2022 01:03 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:(01-06-2022 12:59 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:(01-06-2022 11:46 AM)AusTexDawg Wrote:(01-05-2022 09:14 PM)GoodOwl Wrote: Interesting...SEC now has an exit fee...who's going to want to leave the SEC?
This may be a hedge against the top six or eight teams leaving the SEC to form a compact super-conference with schools like Notre Dame, Clemson, Ohio State, Penn State, Southern Cal, etc.
Sort of like the exodus from the SWC to form the Big12?
Well, with ODU, South Miss and Marshall announcing today that they're leaving at the end of this school year in June, 2022, wonder if we can et out of Dodge any faster as well? I mean, the "damages" wed' potentially have to forfeit would have to be minimal as CUSA has such a terrible tv deal it has next to no value.
Depends on whether the American can get us in. I don't believe that their current contract for TV will grow without a renegotiation, and that may depend on the consent of their own outgoing teams. I doubt the teams coming in to the American are worth the current conference's average, so the outgoing teams won't want to take a pay cut for a year just to be nice to us. They're likewise stuck in the same holding pattern hoping for the XII to let them in early with the complication that the American does have a contractual additional fee for failure to give adequate notice of departure.
Given that teams going into the Sun Belt are much closer match in profile to the teams already in the SBC, the math may work out better to just increase their TV deal's top line roughly pro rata (or better), so they have the option to flip the table over and storm off even if that TV deal isn't finalized. If the six C-USA teams going to the American tried to do the same, we might wind up without a conference competition in any sports or with only each other to play in the football conference season. Maybe the AAC would let us in for non-revenue sports, but I don't see a scenario where we're playing football or men's basketball in the American next fall.
RE: New Realignment Thread - WRCisforgotten79 - 02-12-2022 03:13 PM
C-USA would need to add a school for the East, or else football scheduling will be a mess. With 6 in each division, there would be 3 "crossover" games. Having 5 in the East will make that unworkable.