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RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - teamvsn - 04-27-2022 10:22 PM
johnintx ' Wrote: Will they play NCCAA post-season tournaments during the transition?
Doubtful. We've never been a member because we always considered it a bobie prize for an unsuccessful season.
BTW, now you all know why I hate the D2 tournament so much. I'm used to a real national tournament. But now I'll have to deal with it.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - Todor - 04-27-2022 10:32 PM
(04-27-2022 10:22 PM)teamvsn Wrote:johnintx ' Wrote: Will they play NCCAA post-season tournaments during the transition?
Doubtful. We've never been a member because we always considered it a bobie prize for an unsuccessful season.
BTW, now you all know why I hate the D2 tournament so much. I'm used to a real national tournament. But now I'll have to deal with it.
Good. I always felt like it robbed the few NCCAA D1 programs where aren’t also NAIA or another affiliation of opportunities. I know it doesn’t affect many schools and most that are strictly NCCAA are in D2 if the organization.
So, a possible realignment of Cal PAC and GSAC schools could go several ways, if it happens. It could even go north/south, although less likely. It would depend on which schools can/do add then”correct” sports to match the other schools, if any are interested in doing so.
Or the Arizona schools could form their own if they get a few more members. I’m sure NNMC would join as they have already been playing BenU and a few others regularly and seem to not be wanted in the RRAC.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - johnintx - 04-27-2022 11:37 PM
(04-27-2022 10:32 PM)Todor Wrote:(04-27-2022 10:22 PM)teamvsn Wrote:johnintx ' Wrote: Will they play NCCAA post-season tournaments during the transition?
Doubtful. We've never been a member because we always considered it a bobie prize for an unsuccessful season.
BTW, now you all know why I hate the D2 tournament so much. I'm used to a real national tournament. But now I'll have to deal with it.
Good. I always felt like it robbed the few NCCAA D1 programs where aren’t also NAIA or another affiliation of opportunities. I know it doesn’t affect many schools and most that are strictly NCCAA are in D2 if the organization.
I get it. The NCCAA is designed for small Christian universities and Bible colleges with small budgets...smaller budgets than NAIA schools. It also gets used for national competition by schools that are transitioning from NAIA to D-II. There are also some schools that keep dual memberships between NAIA/NCCAA and D-II/NCCAA.
My alma mater, Oklahoma Baptist, won three Learfield Directors Cups our last three years in the NAIA, in 2013, 2014, and 2015. We were never part of NCCAA until our transition. We played post-season in the NCCAA only during the transition years of 2016 and 2017, and won 13 national championships in those two years, in men's/women's track (indoor & outdoor), men's/women's tennis, baseball, and softball. Our baseball program, after knocking on the door so many years in NAIA, won the NCCAA title both years. Our softball team won a national championship there one year after having a losing record in the regular season. On the other hand, our basketball teams weren't good during that period, and our football team played a D-II conference schedule with no hope, much less opportunity, for post-season.
We're not the only school to compete in NCCAA while transitioning to Division II. I'm glad our athletes had somewhere to compete nationally during the transition. But, it's (to be nice..) not the same. Once we became eligible for post-season play in D-II, we quit competing in NCCAA.
I wish Westmont well in its transition. You will be fine in D-II.
Of course, if the P5 & friends split from the NCAA and take the revenue of the basketball tournament, there will be no money left for D2, and we'll have a form of NAIA/D-II reunion under some umbrella down the road...but that's another topic.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - Fresno St. Alum - 04-28-2022 12:59 AM
(04-27-2022 06:41 PM)teamvsn Wrote:You're moving to D-II, I'm moving to Kingsburg. Things both of us thought wouldn't happen, happened. I'll rent out my Reedley place though.(04-27-2022 05:53 PM)Inkblot Wrote: In addition to the previously-known Thomas More and USC Beaufort, Westmont (teamvsn's school) is applying to join NCAA Division II, and presumably the Pacific West Conference. https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/committees/d2/memb/Mar2022D2Memb_Report.pdf
(Copied from what I just posted at VSN)
Well, it's public now so I can talk. There's a few angles to this:
VSN:
I'm still a fan of the NAIA, and still a fan of Westmont. But after next year there will not be an overlap there. :(
Personally:
I am not excited. But I am not depressed either. AD Dave Odell has assured me and others that we wouldn't be doing this if we weren't going to do this right, and attain similar levels of success at the D2 level. We'll see about that. The other former GSAC members in the PacWest have had what we could call "sporadic success". Both APU and Point Loma have made it to the Final Four, but usually win no more than a game or two in the regionals. So yes, we'll see. The silver lining is that we'll be playing our historic rivals again in the PacWest: APU, Biola, Concordia, Fresno Pacific, and Point Loma.
What did I know, and when did I know it?
I first started hearing questions about NAIA vs D2 from faculty - yes, faculty - after Biola left the NAIA. There have been many discussions with various people at Westmont since then, ranging from "we might do this" to "I think we're going to do this" following that. I only got confirmation mid-March of this year following the normal app deadline; I asked Odell if this was the year they applied, and he said that the deadline shifted to March 1 because of the constitutional changes, but that yes they were going to do it. Up until then i had hope that they wouldn't. So it's really only a few months that I "knew", and i was told off the record as a "valued alumni", so I couldn't talk about it.
WHY D2???
Throughout the discussions I've had, there were a lot of topics covered. Some of them are still off the record, and will be for some time .. or forever if they never become relevant. But most importantly, it's less about NAIA vs NCAA than GSAC vs CalPac. The GSAC has changed a great deal since our historic rivals started moving away. In order to recruit new GSAC members, the conference changed their charter to no longer be Christian based... although it's still all private schools. So that is one reason to stay GSAC gone. The new schools are in Arizona and Northern California, so travel has increased. Another reason to stay GSAC, gone. With the increased travel, most of the sports moved to a "travel partner" scheduling system, in which games were played on Thursday and Saturday, creating 3-4 day road trips to Nor Cal and Arizona. That made sense. But to many of the schools in the GSAC that are struggling financially and had a large chunk of students that are athletes (frequently on road trips), the next logical step was to change the academic schedule to not have school on Fridays. This is when I started hearing things from faculty: this is the athletic tail wagging the academic dog. "Who are we associating ourselves with?". Then came COVID. A few localities within the GSAC footprint, including Santa Barbara County, were super strict about testing and quarantining. Westmont complied, and was in fact one of the few colleges in California that actually had on campus attendance last year all year. But many schools in the GSAC weren't under such orders, and would not perform any testing even at the worst time to protect their students, and our athletes (in game situations). So the GSAC had a split schedule, with the testing teams playing each other and the non-testing teams playing each other. Again, "who are we associating ourselves with?". For 2021/22 and COVID, they still would not test, although the pandemic is milder. What they did was make any missed games forfeits, not postponements. This was a blatant engineering of advantage to favor teams that don't test. The only teams that had forfeits last year were teams that tested. The other teams may very well have played with infected players, but didn't know. I'll add that of the other things that are still off the record, it became obvious that the move was inevitable.
Odell is very optimistic about our chances in D2, and thinks that Westmont will instantly be top 10 academically in D2. That, combined with our location and mission, makes for a unique niche that will help us continue to attract great players. If you know the rules of D2 membership and Westmont's staffing, its obvious some changes will need to be made during the process. I think I know what those changes will be, and they would be positive even if we stayed NAIA. But I won't talk about them until they are public.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - teamvsn - 05-20-2022 11:34 AM
Thanks to inkblot for reporting this on the VSN forum...
Carlow (PA) is going D3.
https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/committees/d3/memb/Mar2022D3Memb_Report.pdf
This report also lists Lyon, which we already knew about.
Hate to say it but probably a good move for Carlow. They are a geographical outlier in both the NAIA and the River States Conference. They rarely are competitive in the NAIA, although they are also members of USCAA and are competitive there. Hopefully they'll find a good home in D3.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - Fresno St. Alum - 05-20-2022 02:27 PM
what conferences will Carlow and Hartford join?
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - Todor - 05-21-2022 09:05 PM
(05-20-2022 11:34 AM)teamvsn Wrote: Thanks to inkblot for reporting this on the VSN forum...
Carlow (PA) is going D3.
https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/committees/d3/memb/Mar2022D3Memb_Report.pdf
This report also lists Lyon, which we already knew about.
Hate to say it but probably a good move for Carlow. They are a geographical outlier in both the NAIA and the River States Conference. They rarely are competitive in the NAIA, although they are also members of USCAA and are competitive there. Hopefully they'll find a good home in D3.
It’s hard to spot, and slow going, but the USCAA is getting a few more schools that are solely in the USCAA and unlikely to leave due to conferences, locations, unique academic situations etc.
I feel their leadership has done a great job working with what is a highly transient and ever changing mix of schools. Somehow in this, they are becoming a little more cohesive and focused I feel.
If they can retain a solid base that isn’t looking to move up all of the time, they will start picking up more D3 drop outs I think. As money gets tight, their northeastern focus is a tempting low cost option. Kudos to them.
With that said, I don’t know much about Carlow to know if solely USCAA would have been an option for them if they’d wanted. However, this does put Point Park in a worse situation and may make them more likely to leave too. When you are one of two NAIA schools with a fair distance between those 2 and the next closest, and then the other leaves, it will probably prompt questions institutionally.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - Todor - 05-22-2022 03:50 AM
I would not rule out a possible change in athletics affiliation at College of the Ozarks in the next year or so.
President Jerry Davis retired after 34 years and took on the role of chancellor. He was responsible for C of O leaving the NAIA a few years back and affiliating with the NCCAA.
The move to the NCCAA was seen as an odd, and somewhat hasty, move. And Ozarks premier sport Mens Basketball has suffered. As the long time host to the NAIA Division II tournament, they had an auto bid to the national tournament every year and won a number of national championships for both men and women.
Mens basketball was 11-19 this year. Quality wise, they were 6-10 versus NAIA teams and most of the wins were versus subpar programs. They lost to 3-27 Bacone at home for example. NAIA wins were against 5 win Haskell, Arkansas Baptist…Not the cream of the crop, and certainly not the level of success fans there are long accustomed to.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see them make a move sooner than later. They would be a great fit for D3 but NAIA is probably more agreeable to their institutional philosophy.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - DavidSt - 05-22-2022 09:57 AM
(05-21-2022 09:05 PM)Todor Wrote:(05-20-2022 11:34 AM)teamvsn Wrote: Thanks to inkblot for reporting this on the VSN forum...
Carlow (PA) is going D3.
https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/committees/d3/memb/Mar2022D3Memb_Report.pdf
This report also lists Lyon, which we already knew about.
Hate to say it but probably a good move for Carlow. They are a geographical outlier in both the NAIA and the River States Conference. They rarely are competitive in the NAIA, although they are also members of USCAA and are competitive there. Hopefully they'll find a good home in D3.
It’s hard to spot, and slow going, but the USCAA is getting a few more schools that are solely in the USCAA and unlikely to leave due to conferences, locations, unique academic situations etc.
I feel their leadership has done a great job working with what is a highly transient and ever changing mix of schools. Somehow in this, they are becoming a little more cohesive and focused I feel.
If they can retain a solid base that isn’t looking to move up all of the time, they will start picking up more D3 drop outs I think. As money gets tight, their northeastern focus is a tempting low cost option. Kudos to them.
With that said, I don’t know much about Carlow to know if solely USCAA would have been an option for them if they’d wanted. However, this does put Point Park in a worse situation and may make them more likely to leave too. When you are one of two NAIA schools with a fair distance between those 2 and the next closest, and then the other leaves, it will probably prompt questions institutionally.
I might see Dine and Navajo Tech add sports and join the NAIA out of the USCAA. They are really miles away from anybody in USCAA anyways, and seemed to play more NAIA and NJCAA schools in the sports that they do have.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - Todor - 05-22-2022 12:24 PM
It would sure be interesting if a new conference could come up with the minimum number of teams to have at least a basketball conference in that area. I’m not sure if a conference has to have a minimum number of sports to exist in NAIA (I believe TeamVSN previously stated they don’t). Other question is can a conference get a nationals bid with 6 members? I’m sure our NAIA guru knows without having to check!
It would be a stretch, but if Navajo Tech and Dine started at least M/W basketball, they could join Northern New Mexico and possibly AIC/SAGU and just need a couple more still. I know, “just a couple more” is a stretch in that region, but I’m just thinking of ideas. I’m leaving out the NAIA schools in Arizona that already have homes and mostly have large sports programs that need homes. On the surface they are natural to think of, but are not like the others named.
What would be wild is is NTU and Dine did add basketball, and a basketball only conference formed that included Bacone and Haskell. It would have to be the first 4 year college conference of primarily Native schools. NNMC is mostly Hispanic but has a much higher percent NA students than any average school, and AIC is kind of a mix now but it’s still their focus. But since Haskell, Bacone, and NNMC all travel a lot and play each other already in the CAC, making it a conference would not add any extra travel most likely. Bacone and Haskell could be played in one weekend trip anyway.
TeanVSN, what do you think? Ever think anyone would ever envision this conference lol? I bet not! I know it would be a pretty big stretch for the 2 (NTU and Dine) to join the NAIA and for AIC to do so well (if SAGU would even want them to) but AIC is playing lots of NAIA schools already out necessity and both the other schools have some history offering some sports, so it’s not as far fetched as some ideas I’ve seen, and Haskell recruits the Southwest pretty heavily and has played game there often. Bacone is beginning to as well as they reorient themselves back to their original purpose. Would be really cool if it could happen. May even prompt NM Tech to dip their toe back into athletics since they’d have potential home they’ve never had. I’m thinking mostly of how fun it be to see happen, but not saying I predict it or anything.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - teamvsn - 05-22-2022 12:40 PM
There have been rumors of SAGU/AIC joining the NAIA for a few years. As far as I know, the main SAGU campus hasn't slapped down the rumors. Not sure why they would object, athletics is a good way of building school spirit and enrollment.
Navajo Tech hasn't been mentioned much as a candidate but I don't see why not. Seems like a good possibility.
As far as a "Historically Native American" conference, that's a very interesting concept. I don't think I've heard anyone suggest it before. Seems like it would be doable, and even attractive for Haskell and Bacone who have been independent for a few years due to financial issues.
But I think the potential for a primarily AZ conference are greater. There's 4 in Phoenix already, plus Embry Riddle in Flagstaff. SAGU/AIC would fit in well, and Navajo Tech makes a good neighbor too. Add in Henderson State near Las Vegas and you have a genuine conference in the SW. Maybe you even add NNMU and maybe even University of the Southwest in Hobbs.
To answer your question about conferences directly, technically there is no minimum. But you have to have 6 to get an automatic bid, so having less is pointless.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - teamvsn - 05-22-2022 12:41 PM
If the Arizona schools leave the GSAC and CalPac, that might even lead to a merger of those conferences.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - Todor - 05-22-2022 05:10 PM
(05-22-2022 12:41 PM)teamvsn Wrote: If the Arizona schools leave the GSAC and CalPac, that might even lead to a merger of those conferences.
I’d kind of forgotten about movement in each of those conferences. Nothing seismic I suppose, but 3 members lost between them is noteworthy.
I could see the Arizona Cal Pac schools on board with an AZ conference more than Ottawa AZ, although they would likely join. But it feels like some of those schools would need homes for a lot of sports if their adds are the AIC, NTU, Dine and NNMC. Maybe long term would work out. Short term I’d say it’s a mismatch.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - Todor - 05-22-2022 05:45 PM
(05-22-2022 12:40 PM)teamvsn Wrote: There have been rumors of SAGU/AIC joining the NAIA for a few years. As far as I know, the main SAGU campus hasn't slapped down the rumors. L
, athletics is a good way of building school spirit and enrollment.
Navajo Tech hasn't been mentioned much as a candidate but I don't see why not. Seems like a good possibility.
As far as a "Historically Native American" conference, that's a very interesting concept. I don't think I've heard anyone suggest it before. Seems like it would be doable, and even attractive for Haskell and Bacone who have been independent for a few years due to financial issues.
But I think the potential for a primarily AZ conference are greater. There's 4 in Phoenix already, plus Embry Riddle in Flagstaff. SAGU/AIC would fit in well, and Navajo Tech makes a good neighbor too. Add in Henderson State near Las Vegas and you have a genuine conference in the SW. Maybe you even add NNMU and maybe even University of the Southwest in Hobbs.
To answer your question about conferences directly, technically there is no minimum. But you have to have 6 to get an automatic bid, so having less is pointless.
I see your point about the Arizona Cal Pac schools, but if they were involved in a potential Arizona/New Mexico conference I’d say that would most likely rule out a chance of near total startups like Dine and NTU. I think they’d take one look at an OU AZ and Embry Riddle and see themselves very differently and not want to compete with that model, versus NNMC and AIC which are more similar to them. I’d say NNMC would be their exact model. Former community college, still with 2 year programs, very limited and slow growing athletics programs, public, largely locally oriented. Haskell and Bacone are also former Jucos with fairly recent history.
When I look at Haskell, Bacone, and Northerns basketball schedules, my idea actually makes sense. It wouldn’t increase their travel really. Their HINU and Bacone rosters have a lot of NM and AZ players. I believe Haskell mens basketball played at Northern Arizona a few years ago and they typically go to Phoenix or New Mexico for non con games fairly regularly already.
The main (perhaps only) reason this could happen is to have a conference full of pretty similar schools and to get an auto bid separate from the rest of the more far flung Continental Conference and more in line with these schools very limited budgets.
SAGU…Hmmm. It seems like some main campuses like to keep the branches a step lower than them. Or a step aside. I’m looking at Ben U, Lindenwood, Johnson and Wales, Campbellsville, Johnson U, and some others. It’s true the branches may not be ready to be at the same level in many cases, it also seems like main campuses like to remain the “main campus” in some instances. Ottawa and Park are opposite examples however. Who knows how SAGU feels.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - AZcats - 05-26-2022 01:24 PM
Assumption (D2/NE10) will add men's swimming & diving and women's ice hockey in 2023. I expect the women's ice hockey to join NEWHA.
Assumption Announces New Varsity Sports in Women’s Ice Hockey and Men’s Swimming
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - AssKickingChicken - 05-31-2022 05:01 PM
I haven’t seen an official announcement on launching a program, but the University of Montevallo, a D2 school in Alabama, is advertising for a head wrestling coach on the school’s website.
I know we have a Montevallo grad on here and was wondering if he knew anything about it.
Apologies if this is the wrong place to put this but I didn’t think it deserved a new thread and this seemed like the best place.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - AZcats - 05-31-2022 05:48 PM
(05-31-2022 05:01 PM)AssKickingChicken Wrote: I haven’t seen an official announcement on launching a program, but the University of Montevallo, a D2 school in Alabama, is advertising for a head wrestling coach on the school’s website.
I know we have a Montevallo grad on here and was wondering if he knew anything about it.
Apologies if this is the wrong place to put this but I didn’t think it deserved a new thread and this seemed like the best place.
In the last few years schools have been adding a men's and women's teams together, kind of disappointing that this looks to be just men.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - AssKickingChicken - 05-31-2022 06:34 PM
(05-31-2022 05:48 PM)AZcats Wrote:(05-31-2022 05:01 PM)AssKickingChicken Wrote: I haven’t seen an official announcement on launching a program, but the University of Montevallo, a D2 school in Alabama, is advertising for a head wrestling coach on the school’s website.
I know we have a Montevallo grad on here and was wondering if he knew anything about it.
Apologies if this is the wrong place to put this but I didn’t think it deserved a new thread and this seemed like the best place.
In the last few years schools have been adding a men's and women's teams together, kind of disappointing that this looks to be just men.
Are you disappointed they have lacrosse and volleyball for women but not for men?
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - Todor - 05-31-2022 08:43 PM
(05-31-2022 05:48 PM)AZcats Wrote:(05-31-2022 05:01 PM)AssKickingChicken Wrote: I haven’t seen an official announcement on launching a program, but the University of Montevallo, a D2 school in Alabama, is advertising for a head wrestling coach on the school’s website.
I know we have a Montevallo grad on here and was wondering if he knew anything about it.
Apologies if this is the wrong place to put this but I didn’t think it deserved a new thread and this seemed like the best place.
In the last few years schools have been adding a men's and women's teams together, kind of disappointing that this looks to be just men.
It is kind of an unusual move. Adding womens and mens together has become the defacto standard for schools without either program. But over a long period of time, much of the growth in womens wrestling was coming from the NAIA where there was a Invitational national championship and now a fully sanctioned NC.
I don’t know the exact status of women’s in the NCAA overall, let alone D2 specifically. I suspect that they would have to have their women’s program either compete as a D1 program or in some kind of all division championship. While some schools continue to run women’s a club, or sanctioned non scholarship, Montevallo probably has administrative reasons, or possibly they are already planning on adding some other sports and don’t need a women’s program for balance. But yeah, odd move.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond - AZcats - 06-01-2022 02:18 PM
(05-31-2022 06:34 PM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:(05-31-2022 05:48 PM)AZcats Wrote:(05-31-2022 05:01 PM)AssKickingChicken Wrote: I haven’t seen an official announcement on launching a program, but the University of Montevallo, a D2 school in Alabama, is advertising for a head wrestling coach on the school’s website.
I know we have a Montevallo grad on here and was wondering if he knew anything about it.
Apologies if this is the wrong place to put this but I didn’t think it deserved a new thread and this seemed like the best place.
In the last few years schools have been adding a men's and women's teams together, kind of disappointing that this looks to be just men.
Are you disappointed they have lacrosse and volleyball for women but not for men?
If this is trying to make a point, it's nothing but a big whiff. I'm not disappointed at all mainly because Montevallo announced the addition of men's lacrosse in 2016 and won the inaugural game in 2018. As I said and Todor explained further, it's become standard to add both programs together by schools with neither program.
According to the NCAA Directory, there are 40 women's wrestling programs including 17 in D2. Women's Wrestling, Triathlon, and Acrobatics & Tumbling are all in line to be elevated from Emerging Sport to Championship status within the next 5 years.