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RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - Jugnaut - 06-23-2018 04:04 PM
(06-23-2018 02:21 PM)green Wrote:(06-22-2018 06:00 PM)Jugnaut Wrote: Why do you have the right to exclude strangers from your property but consider it wrong for the nation to exclude illegal aliens from its territory?
Xenophobia has nothing to do with it. In another thread, you said you were libertarian. I consider myself one too. I view illegal migrants as violating the principle of non-aggression and violating the property rights of our people/nation. I find it wrong on a moral level.
https://twitter.com/UnlawfulEntries/status/1008757120932642816
does your righteous indignation extend to foreign tourists & students ...
GOOD FOREIGNER, BAD FOREIGNER
I don't have any problem with legal immigrants, tourists, or foreign students. If they are obeying our laws, they are welcome. If they aren't, then they're criminals. It is an internal policy decision that is left up to each nation/people to determine what number, type, etc. of immigrants we accept. Other than that, there is no right for someone of another nation to trespass against ours.
RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - Jugnaut - 06-23-2018 04:12 PM
(06-23-2018 03:10 PM)Lush Wrote:(06-23-2018 02:21 PM)green Wrote:(06-22-2018 06:00 PM)Jugnaut Wrote: Why do you have the right to exclude strangers from your property but consider it wrong for the nation to exclude illegal aliens from its territory?
Xenophobia has nothing to do with it. In another thread, you said you were libertarian. I consider myself one too. I view illegal migrants as violating the principle of non-aggression and violating the property rights of our people/nation. I find it wrong on a moral level.
https://twitter.com/UnlawfulEntries/status/1008757120932642816
does your righteous indignation extend to foreign tourists & students ...
GOOD FOREIGNER, BAD FOREIGNER
i'm sure people don't have a problem with tourists and students green
to jugs, what's moral about borders? it's not exactly easy to become a citizen of this country. for the vast majority of illegals they adhere to our laws once they live under them. no sense to draw attention to themselves for obvious reasons. it's not particularly moral to refuse aid in education and healthcare to people trying to access a better life. our situation (being lucky enough to be born in the states) is less dire than a majority of the world and we can afford to have this little nuisance so long as borders exist. maybe a wall changes that and folks gotta keep on keepin on at the homestead, best they can
i'm wiling to play by the laws and grant you your borders at this stage of the game. the eu experiment is starting to unravel but it was an attempt at an what if? i don't think borders are the answer but i don't think that's going to change
I see borders as an extension of the natural right to self-defense and/or part of basic property rights. Without borders you don't have a nation. Just as I have a natural right to defend myself and my property, so too does the nation/people have a right to national defense. Illegal migrants are trespassing against us. No different than if someone walked through your front door and started eating out of your refrigerator or sleeping on your couch. We have a right to stop that. Simple as that. If we decide as a people to increase the level of legal immigration, that's our internal affair and policy decision. Illegal immigrants have no right to invade our territory.
That said, I am sympathetic to the the plight of people suffering from around the world. I understand why people would become economic migrants and want to move to a better country. We are under no duty to let them in however, it's completely an internal decision for our people to make.
In my personal life, my wife is Vietnamese-American. Her parents came here as refugees after the war. I completely support the US choosing to help refugees, especially in situation such as we fought a war as allies and our allies lost.
RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - green - 06-23-2018 04:18 PM
(06-23-2018 04:12 PM)Jugnaut Wrote: Without people (FIFY) you don't have a nation.
GHOST TOWN
RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - JMUDunk - 06-23-2018 04:30 PM
(06-23-2018 03:53 PM)green Wrote:(06-23-2018 03:15 PM)JMUDunk Wrote: “Wingo”’s as weak on his history as you are.
Reagan said no such thing. My goodness, the state of our education system these days.
It’s downright frightening...
https://twitter.com/jaycliffe/status/1010243959774330880
HISTORY BUFF
"Work permits", that's what we have now...
That doesn't mean, Hey folks, just pack up all your schit and you and your entire "family" come set up residence here. No worries, we'll give you free food, free clothing, free housing, we'll educate your kids for free and make sure they get free health and dental services too."
He said one time amnesty for (I think it was) 6 million alien illegals, in exchange for then closing the border tto any future squatters trying to invade. pp
Course the double crossing dims said fine, let's do this in two steps
Step 1.- Amnesty for illegals currently here.
Step 2. Securing the border.
Course step 2 never happened and here we are.
Yet again.
THOSE WHO DO NOT LEARN FROM HISTORY...
RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - Owl 69/70/75 - 06-23-2018 05:17 PM
No we don't have "work permits" now. That's what most countries have, but we don't, except for a very limited number. Reagan was a big supporter of the Bracero program, which may be the closest thing to a rational approach that we have ever had.
What's Wrong with Open Borders - JMUDunk - 06-24-2018 07:40 AM
(06-23-2018 05:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: No we don't have "work permits" now. That's what most countries have, but we don't, except for a very limited number. Reagan was a big supporter of the Bracero program, which may be the closest thing to a rational approach that we have ever had.
Fair enough, I’m sure you know more about the vernacular or correct terms than I. What are work visas, then? Or maybe seasonal permits or whatever? Not the H-1 hi tech things, but the ones that have had people coming en masse that I’ve been (or had been) working alongside since at least 1985? What are the avocado and orange pickers working on? Maybe it’s a green card? Is there a functional difference, other than name?
I go into the Russian enclave of food lion in the outer banks of NC and it’s nearly totally staffed by (oft times smoking hot) young roooskie chicks. Back in the day it was Ireland, Scotland, Danes etc.
We even let some jersey folks in back when. Things were that desperate.
I don’t know the “proper” name, but they are/were here on seasonal, temp passports or whatever to fill jobs, Kings dominion, Busch gardens and the like as well.
NOT simply an open border. These people didn’t just walk on in and decide they’d stay permanently. That’s really the point.
RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - Lush - 06-24-2018 08:25 AM
so what the hell changed between the time when you could just walk across the border, like kerouac did? did mexico become more of a shithole or was it f*ckin kennedy and possibly the red scare? seems a bit much to research right now and i defer
RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - Lush - 06-24-2018 08:26 AM
or was it cuzza drugs
RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - green - 06-24-2018 09:46 AM
(06-24-2018 08:25 AM)Lush Wrote: so what the hell changed between the time when you could just walk across the border, like kerouac did? did mexico become more of a shithole or was it f*ckin kennedy and possibly the red scare? seems a bit much to research right now and i defer
https://twitter.com/julessc521/status/1010250417085779968
WISH I WAS IN THE LAND OF COTTON
RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - geosnooker2000 - 06-25-2018 01:09 PM
(06-23-2018 01:15 PM)Lush Wrote:(06-22-2018 11:16 PM)geosnooker2000 Wrote:(06-22-2018 01:28 PM)Lush Wrote: it's obvious, i suppose, that nations evolve organically and these imaginary lines can't be helped. is it, human nature that does this? where else in the universe are there borders?
Where else are there differing forms of government?
i suppose your sentiment lies in governments are a necessary reaction to the advent of society and it cannot be otherwise?
Yes, that is the unfortunate reality. And it is only thus because you could live with the best intentions, but will be vulnerable to all of the bad-actors in the world. Therefore, you must have a military, or the protection of someone else's.
RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - geosnooker2000 - 06-25-2018 01:15 PM
(06-23-2018 04:18 PM)green Wrote:(06-23-2018 04:12 PM)Jugnaut Wrote: Without people (FIFY) you don't have a nation.
GHOST TOWN
Uhhhh.... we got no shortage of people...
RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - green - 06-25-2018 01:20 PM
(06-22-2018 01:28 PM)Lush Wrote: where else in the universe are there borders?
![[Image: Pictures%2Bof%2BEarth%2BFrom%2BOuter%2BSpace-707256.jpg]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WEo_wQ-o8Kg/Uc9qe1r6r6I/AAAAAAAAEdI/KkNwP4X5H-0/s1600/Pictures%2Bof%2BEarth%2BFrom%2BOuter%2BSpace-707256.jpg)
ARTIFICIAL TURF
RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - stinkfist - 06-25-2018 01:23 PM
(06-25-2018 01:15 PM)geosnooker2000 Wrote:(06-23-2018 04:18 PM)green Wrote:(06-23-2018 04:12 PM)Jugnaut Wrote: Without people (FIFY) you don't have a nation.
GHOST TOWN
Uhhhh.... we got no shortage of people...
yeah we do.....the ones the dems fund to NOT WORK......that's the crux that has lead to all this bs......
#spoilt
RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - Jugnaut - 06-25-2018 01:38 PM
(06-22-2018 01:28 PM)Lush Wrote: it's obvious, i suppose, that nations evolve organically and these imaginary lines can't be helped. is it, human nature that does this? where else in the universe are there borders?
Pretty much everything in the universe has a border from cell walls and skin which act as a border to keep our infectious invaders, to oceans, atmospheres, and planets, to animal groups or colonies patrolling and defending their territory, borders are everywhere.
RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - green - 06-25-2018 02:01 PM
(06-25-2018 01:38 PM)Jugnaut Wrote: infectious invaders
https://twitter.com/MrCheckpoint/status/1011316036958732288
IDENTITY CRISIS
RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - Lush - 06-25-2018 02:47 PM
(06-25-2018 01:38 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:(06-22-2018 01:28 PM)Lush Wrote: it's obvious, i suppose, that nations evolve organically and these imaginary lines can't be helped. is it, human nature that does this? where else in the universe are there borders?
Pretty much everything in the universe has a border from cell walls and skin which act as a border to keep our infectious invaders, to oceans, atmospheres, and planets, to animal groups or colonies patrolling and defending their territory, borders are everywhere.
who's decision?
RE: What's Wrong with Open Borders - Owl 69/70/75 - 06-25-2018 04:15 PM
(06-24-2018 07:40 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:(06-23-2018 05:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: No we don't have "work permits" now. That's what most countries have, but we don't, except for a very limited number. Reagan was a big supporter of the Bracero program, which may be the closest thing to a rational approach that we have ever had.Fair enough, I’m sure you know more about the vernacular or correct terms than I. What are work visas, then? Or maybe seasonal permits or whatever? Not the H-1 hi tech things, but the ones that have had people coming en masse that I’ve been (or had been) working alongside since at least 1985? What are the avocado and orange pickers working on? Maybe it’s a green card? Is there a functional difference, other than name?
I go into the Russian enclave of food lion in the outer banks of NC and it’s nearly totally staffed by (oft times smoking hot) young roooskie chicks. Back in the day it was Ireland, Scotland, Danes etc.
We even let some jersey folks in back when. Things were that desperate.
I don’t know the “proper” name, but they are/were here on seasonal, temp passports or whatever to fill jobs, Kings dominion, Busch gardens and the like as well.
NOT simply an open border. These people didn’t just walk on in and decide they’d stay permanently. That’s really the point.
We have a very limited work visa program now. That needs to be expanded. It's probably the only way to handle the illegals who are already here and working. We can't send them back--that would make Mexico a failed state, and we don't need Somalia on our southern border--and we should not make them citizens--that is simply rewarding illegal behavior. So give them work permits, and expand the legal work permit. It is patently absurd for Microsoft to build a campus in southern British Columbia, and send foreign IT masters/doctorate graduates from MIT and Caltech and Rice to work there, because they can't get them work permits in the US. That is really cutting off our nose to spite our face.
There are lots of sad stories in the world. We cannot make it our national mission to take care of every single one.