(11-01-2013 03:09 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  He lost all credibility when he put UNM and UH on par academically with SMU.

Do some freaking research dude. Just laughable.

Or you could actually read how he did his methodology:

"For the purposes of the Big 12, 5 points will be assigned to any school that has at least 2 of the following 3 qualifications: an AAU member, ranked in the top 100 of the US News undergraduate rankings and/or ranked in the top 300 of the ARWU world graduate school rankings. A school that has 1 of those qualifications will receive 3 points."

Keep ignoring NIU, but realistically, NIU brings more to the Big 12 than Memphis, Cincinnati, Tulane or any of the other schools listed here. Granted, NIU needs facility upgrades, increased donor levels, etc., but being 60 miles from Chicago offers a HUGE TV market that should influence Big 12 expansion.

(11-01-2013 03:37 PM)bigredmachine Wrote:  Keep ignoring NIU, but realistically, NIU brings more to the Big 12 than Memphis, Cincinnati, Tulane or any of the other schools listed here. Granted, NIU needs facility upgrades, increased donor levels, etc., but being 60 miles from Chicago offers a HUGE TV market that should influence Big 12 expansion.

Based on your logic they B12 should invite Fordham (NYC) and Illinois-Chicago.

(11-01-2013 03:44 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 03:37 PM)bigredmachine Wrote:  Keep ignoring NIU, but realistically, NIU brings more to the Big 12 than Memphis, Cincinnati, Tulane or any of the other schools listed here. Granted, NIU needs facility upgrades, increased donor levels, etc., but being 60 miles from Chicago offers a HUGE TV market that should influence Big 12 expansion.

Based on your logic they B12 should invite Fordham (NYC) and Illinois-Chicago.

I think he makes a good logical set of arguments. Cincy's location is somewhat misleading unless you have been through the area or spent some time in the area. Cincy can carry the B12 flag in SW Ohio, Northern Ky and SW Indiana, and even though they will never be the top draw in those states, as long as they can maintain themselves as at least the 3rd draw for eyeballs, that's okay. Most college football fans watch multiple games over the course of the Thursday night to the end of Saturday night. Cincy also give the B12 a school that can play ACC school Louisville in a rivalry.

BYU is a no brainer. Every Mormon who cares for sports will watch them, same as every Catholic who watches football keeps an eye on the Irish. In addition to the Mormons that live in Utah, there are large clusters of them along the Wasatch and Front ranges in Idaho, Colorado, and New Mexico. BYU makes a good analogue to ND in the ACC.

Texas and BYU in the same conference requires massaging huge egos and to make the conference interesting to the outside world, I don't think you can have the Texahoma 6 as one division.

Tulane would indeed make a good 15th for the B12 if only for allowing the other league schools to visit New Orleans and it would step on some SEC toes. I suppose if you want a real project and some sort of presence back in a major metro you would look at Colorado State and Northern Illinois (they could use a name change - perhaps Illinois Tech).

(11-01-2013 03:44 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 03:37 PM)bigredmachine Wrote:  Keep ignoring NIU, but realistically, NIU brings more to the Big 12 than Memphis, Cincinnati, Tulane or any of the other schools listed here. Granted, NIU needs facility upgrades, increased donor levels, etc., but being 60 miles from Chicago offers a HUGE TV market that should influence Big 12 expansion.

Based on your logic they B12 should invite Fordham (NYC) and Illinois-Chicago.

This.

NIU doesn't have the history, brand name recognition, large fan base, recognized academics or athletic pedigree that a P5 conference wants.

Just being located in or near a big city is not enough or Temple, FIU and Stony Brook would be high on the expansion list.

Also agree a name change might help shed the directional taint. They could do like Auburn and Clemson and become DeKalb University, though that might get confused with DePaul.

(11-01-2013 04:26 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 03:44 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 03:37 PM)bigredmachine Wrote:  Keep ignoring NIU, but realistically, NIU brings more to the Big 12 than Memphis, Cincinnati, Tulane or any of the other schools listed here. Granted, NIU needs facility upgrades, increased donor levels, etc., but being 60 miles from Chicago offers a HUGE TV market that should influence Big 12 expansion.

Based on your logic they B12 should invite Fordham (NYC) and Illinois-Chicago.

This.

NIU doesn't have the history, brand name recognition, large fan base, recognized academics or athletic pedigree that a P5 conference wants.

Just being located in or near a big city is not enough or Temple, FIU and Stony Brook would be high on the expansion list.

Also agree a name change might help shed the directional taint. They could do like Auburn and Clemson and become DeKalb University, though that might get confused with DePaul.

Northern Illinois would have to be a B12 project. The league would have to actively help NI grow and tap the Chicago market. If I was gambling on a university in that category, NI might be worth the gamble as they could become the third/fourth most popular CF team in the State of Illinois behind, the Illini, ND, NW, and Wisky. Stoney Brook is a much higher risk.

I just don't know what to make out of Temple.

(11-01-2013 02:45 PM)TyBull Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 01:33 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  I have been saying for along timr BYU and Cincinnati are #11 and #12. I agree with Frank.

BYU has scheduling issues. They will NEVER play any game from any sport on any SUNDAY! That is a major issue with the Big 12 (or for that matter any conference) hence they are an independent.......

I think that BYU stays independent..... ala ND

Nah...the Big12 has never made an issue of the no Sunday play....Actually whenever does the Big12 play conference games on Sunday.

(11-01-2013 04:47 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 02:45 PM)TyBull Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 01:33 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  I have been saying for along timr BYU and Cincinnati are #11 and #12. I agree with Frank.

BYU has scheduling issues. They will NEVER play any game from any sport on any SUNDAY! That is a major issue with the Big 12 (or for that matter any conference) hence they are an independent.......

I think that BYU stays independent..... ala ND

Nah...the Big12 has never made an issue of the no Sunday play....Actually whenever does the Big12 play conference games on Sunday.

Basketball/Baseball

Well contrary to what Frank says, I do not believe the big12 would cease to exist if Texas leaves....and I do not see why in the world they would, UT has the best situatuion in all of college football, so why would they leave..

The Big12 would likely add BYU first and if necessary backfill with teams from the AAC and MWC and would retain their P5 status.

That would be better than the Big12 schools joining the ACC or MWC.

The thing is, if UT were to leave, it wouldn't be solo, politics just wont allow for it.

They would probably need to move at least as a quartet of UT, OU and both their little brothers to keep the politicians happy.

Kansas would probably not get left out and WVU might find a soft landing spot too.

I dont see the remaining 4 (BU/TCU/ISU/KSU) as a strong enough core to get the networks to continue honoring the B12 contracts and so they will most likely have to seek asylum in the MWC or AAC.

(11-01-2013 03:27 PM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 03:09 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  He lost all credibility when he put UNM and UH on par academically with SMU.

Do some freaking research dude. Just laughable.

Or you could actually read how he did his methodology:

"For the purposes of the Big 12, 5 points will be assigned to any school that has at least 2 of the following 3 qualifications: an AAU member, ranked in the top 100 of the US News undergraduate rankings and/or ranked in the top 300 of the ARWU world graduate school rankings. A school that has 1 of those qualifications will receive 3 points."

weve talked about this with miami OH as well. sometimes its not so much your us news rankings but how many people know your schools academic rankings.

miami OH has surprisingly strong academics, but not a lot of people outside of ohio know that

(11-01-2013 04:50 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 04:47 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 02:45 PM)TyBull Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 01:33 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  I have been saying for along timr BYU and Cincinnati are #11 and #12. I agree with Frank.

BYU has scheduling issues. They will NEVER play any game from any sport on any SUNDAY! That is a major issue with the Big 12 (or for that matter any conference) hence they are an independent.......

I think that BYU stays independent..... ala ND

Nah...the Big12 has never made an issue of the no Sunday play....Actually whenever does the Big12 play conference games on Sunday.

Basketball/Baseball

Basketball? When? I do not recall any.

Baseball conference games? when? Maybe the tournament but that would be BYU's problem.

Certainly I have never read nor heard where the Big12 said it was a problem with them.

(11-01-2013 06:21 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 04:50 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 04:47 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 02:45 PM)TyBull Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 01:33 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  I have been saying for along timr BYU and Cincinnati are #11 and #12. I agree with Frank.

BYU has scheduling issues. They will NEVER play any game from any sport on any SUNDAY! That is a major issue with the Big 12 (or for that matter any conference) hence they are an independent.......

I think that BYU stays independent..... ala ND

Nah...the Big12 has never made an issue of the no Sunday play....Actually whenever does the Big12 play conference games on Sunday.

Basketball/Baseball

Basketball? When? I do not recall any.

Baseball conference games? when? Maybe the tournament but that would be BYU's problem.

Certainly I have never read nor heard where the Big12 said it was a problem with them.

The conference championship game in basketball is on Sunday. Has been for quite some time.

I have always thought the no-Sunday rule is less of an obstacle than everyone makes it out to be. The reason conferences make a big deal of it, IMO, is just the principle of revising conference schedules to accommodate one school.

Only a few conferences still finish their conference basketball tournament on selection Sunday. Most have their final on Saturday (or earlier).

Baseball can be accommodated the same way the MWC did -- instead of Friday-Saturday-Sunday scheduling for conference baseball series, play the series vs. BYU on Thursday-Friday-Saturday (or, if the home team prefers, a single game on Friday and a doubleheader on Saturday).

If a conference really wanted BYU to join, that would be only a minor inconvenience.

(11-01-2013 06:41 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 06:21 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 04:50 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 04:47 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 02:45 PM)TyBull Wrote:  BYU has scheduling issues. They will NEVER play any game from any sport on any SUNDAY! That is a major issue with the Big 12 (or for that matter any conference) hence they are an independent.......

I think that BYU stays independent..... ala ND

Nah...the Big12 has never made an issue of the no Sunday play....Actually whenever does the Big12 play conference games on Sunday.

Basketball/Baseball

Basketball? When? I do not recall any.

Baseball conference games? when? Maybe the tournament but that would be BYU's problem.

Certainly I have never read nor heard where the Big12 said it was a problem with them.

The conference championship game in basketball is on Sunday. Has been for quite some time.

That used to be the case, but it was moved to Saturday a couple of years ago.

Good thoughtful analysis by Frank. I can see a number of scenarios with varying appeal that I may elaborate on when not posting from my phone, but he did a good job of evaluating individual schools' value.

None of the schools work because of the overvalued contract situation the Big 12 already has. They already are going to be giving up 20 million to WVU and TCU as both of those schools' payouts gradually increase to the full payout. You add in two more schools who do not have a strong viewership value for the Networks and the Big 12 payout value plummets.

Yes, I know there is some supposed aspect to one or more of their contracts that provides a boost to maintain the payouts if they get to 12 but contracts have loopholes and those loopholes will be looked at by lawyers if any of these schools are added.

(11-01-2013 07:50 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  None of the schools work because of the overvalued contract situation the Big 12 already has. They already are going to be giving up 20 million to WVU and TCU as both of those schools' payouts gradually increase to the full payout. You add in two more schools who do not have a strong viewership value for the Networks and the Big 12 payout value plummets.

Yes, the only schools that would actually bring $20 million with them, as opposed to just being extra mouths to feed, would be schools in other P5 conferences. And since GoR's take those schools off the market, the Big 12 isn't expanding any time soon.

Really, with the various GoRs, there isn't much need for this particular forum, at least not where the P5 is concerned. Those conferences will have the same membership for at least the next 5 years.

(11-01-2013 09:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 07:50 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  None of the schools work because of the overvalued contract situation the Big 12 already has. They already are going to be giving up 20 million to WVU and TCU as both of those schools' payouts gradually increase to the full payout. You add in two more schools who do not have a strong viewership value for the Networks and the Big 12 payout value plummets.

Yes, the only schools that would actually bring $20 million with them, as opposed to just being extra mouths to feed, would be schools in other P5 conferences. And since GoR's take those schools off the market, the Big 12 isn't expanding any time soon.

Really, with the various GoRs, there isn't much need for this particular forum, at least not where the P5 is concerned. Those conferences will have the same membership for at least the next 5 years.

GoR's aren't indestructible.

(11-01-2013 05:44 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 03:27 PM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  

(11-01-2013 03:09 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  He lost all credibility when he put UNM and UH on par academically with SMU.

Do some freaking research dude. Just laughable.

Or you could actually read how he did his methodology:

"For the purposes of the Big 12, 5 points will be assigned to any school that has at least 2 of the following 3 qualifications: an AAU member, ranked in the top 100 of the US News undergraduate rankings and/or ranked in the top 300 of the ARWU world graduate school rankings. A school that has 1 of those qualifications will receive 3 points."

weve talked about this with miami OH as well. sometimes its not so much your us news rankings but how many people know your schools academic rankings.

miami OH has surprisingly strong academics, but not a lot of people outside of ohio know that

I'll call you on that.

Everyone you will talk to hasn't heard of Miami Oh but those who have is because of academic reputation.

I don't know anybody who has heard of the school who is of the opinion that its a lousy MAC school. If anything I've heard praise for MAC schools as that some of them are very good academically which carries over to the schools that aren't.

(11-01-2013 07:50 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  None of the schools work because of the overvalued contract situation the Big 12 already has. They already are going to be giving up 20 million to WVU and TCU as both of those schools' payouts gradually increase to the full payout. You add in two more schools who do not have a strong viewership value for the Networks and the Big 12 payout value plummets.

Yes, I know there is some supposed aspect to one or more of their contracts that provides a boost to maintain the payouts if they get to 12 but contracts have loopholes and those loopholes will be looked at by lawyers if any of these schools are added.

Which is exactly why the Big XII is in trouble. The other power conferences did not lose money with expansion. It helped raise the pay outs... call it renegotiation with the networks. If the Big XII can't pull this off, that tells us all we need to know about their future. The potential schools that would ensure a successful conference expansion, and more money are either not looking to move at all, or else they are looking at the B1G and SEC. In a nutshell, the Big XII have dug themselves a big hole. Letting Louisville get away was one huge mistake. Not adding Cincy is the other. Those two would have been a great add for WVU... right in the B1G and SEC backyards. Of course Texas pushed for staying at ten, but of course they can suck the conference for all it's worth then leave for greener pastures to feed old Bevo.

For that matter, the PAC has no real expansion options without blowing up the Big XII, and they probably screwed the goose on that option already.