(10-29-2013 12:54 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 12:44 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 12:00 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 11:55 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Every person's circumstances are different and we shouldn't judge a person's success against ours. Just because you got to where you are with hard work doesn't mean that everyone else should be able too as well.

I know plenty of hard working people who never got rich and I know plenty of rich people who never lifted a finger to get what they have.

when did I say I was rich? I'm not.
I said I worked hard and didn't stay at min wage.

who said life was fair? so what if rich people get a leg up?
I can envy and whine about the leg up they got or I can go out and do what I can to better myself and my family.

My point was that if you start at the bottom, show up and work hard every day, you won't stay at the bottom and anyone who argues otherwise is lying.

If by bottom, you mean minimum wage, then obviously you won't be there forever. If bottom means lower class, that's different. Not everyone is bestowed with the ability to make it to college, and not everyone that goes has the mental resources to get a major in something solid. I don't think these people should be condemned and called lazy just because they weren't educated or skilled enough to achieve the American dream.

Ok, then why are you doing it?

It's the left that starts this populist class warfare. This thread is a tiny example of that.

It's you dmac, that are insulting people who don't achieve "the American dream."

What's more insulting:

A. Pretending that these people are all poor because they're lazy.
B. acknowledging that our education system failed them.

Sorry, you're not fooling anyone by trying to flip the script at the people who want to help. Some people never had a chance.

(10-29-2013 11:48 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 11:26 AM)VA49er Wrote:  That's exactly where many of us started, I know I did. Of course that was high school and I, like people are supposed to do, moved on to more lucrative jobs.

Me too.
Cut grass, trimmed hedges, painted swimming pools, for a local landlord at 14 for two years. Worked at the Golden Arches at 16. After two years at the Golden Arches I got a job as a waiting tables because I could earn tips in college. Graduated college and have been gainfully employed since. No one has given me anything. No scholarships, no family connections, no network.

At each and every job since 14 I showed up on time, worked my whole shift, didn't miss work "sick", didn't goof off, worked overtime if needed, took extra shifts if available. When I was at work I worked hard because it's the right thing to do.

I'm guessing you didn't expect $15/hour either. People are just too damn lazy these days and expect everything to be handed to them.

(10-29-2013 12:52 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 11:55 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Every person's circumstances are different and we shouldn't judge a person's success against ours. Just because you got to where you are with hard work doesn't mean that everyone else should be able too as well.

I know plenty of hard working people who never got rich and I know plenty of rich people who never lifted a finger to get what they have.

SOMEBODY certainly lifted a finger to get the money. The fact that someone's grandfather or whomever worked hard or smart enough to make it so that his grandchild didn't have to work hard should be lauded... not looked down upon. If for no other reason but that person would have still had the benefits of the best education money could buy and connections... and likely taken a job from someone who "worked hard" for their position. I'd much rather he be lazy and HIRE people like me.

You guys love to keep this line blurred when it is really pretty simple.

Not one person I know of doesn't believe in giving hard working people a hand up because they deserve it because of their efforts or a hand out if/when they need it. What they don't believe in is giving a hand up to someone who hasn't earned it or a hand out to someone who doesn't need it. While the definitions of "hard work" and "need" may be blurry, the concept is incredibly clear.

But by the same token. Not one person I know receives a hand out or hand up for doing absolutely nothing. Yet, the media and people on this forum would have you believe that everyone is getting something for nothing. There simply are no statistics to support that.

(10-29-2013 01:12 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 12:54 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 12:44 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 12:00 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 11:55 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Every person's circumstances are different and we shouldn't judge a person's success against ours. Just because you got to where you are with hard work doesn't mean that everyone else should be able too as well.

I know plenty of hard working people who never got rich and I know plenty of rich people who never lifted a finger to get what they have.

when did I say I was rich? I'm not.
I said I worked hard and didn't stay at min wage.

who said life was fair? so what if rich people get a leg up?
I can envy and whine about the leg up they got or I can go out and do what I can to better myself and my family.

My point was that if you start at the bottom, show up and work hard every day, you won't stay at the bottom and anyone who argues otherwise is lying.

If by bottom, you mean minimum wage, then obviously you won't be there forever. If bottom means lower class, that's different. Not everyone is bestowed with the ability to make it to college, and not everyone that goes has the mental resources to get a major in something solid. I don't think these people should be condemned and called lazy just because they weren't educated or skilled enough to achieve the American dream.

Ok, then why are you doing it?

It's the left that starts this populist class warfare. This thread is a tiny example of that.

It's you dmac, that are insulting people who don't achieve "the American dream."

What's more insulting:

A. Pretending that these people are all poor because they're lazy.
B. acknowledging that our education system failed them.

Sorry, you're not fooling anyone by trying to flip the script at the people who want to help. Some people never had a chance.

Well you do manage to be obtuse. Nevertheless, for those of us who know history, we know who gave the 'Four Freedoms' speech, we know who started the populist uprisings in the 1800s, we know what the founders of US public education (Mann, Dewey, etc) wrote as their goals....

In the end it's you who hate the poor. Living a life well isn't regarded by you; you insist on judging people by their material acquisitions, and if you judge it to be low, then you stir up strife.

Flip the script? No, I'm the one who knows enough to reveal the truth.

(10-29-2013 01:19 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  But by the same token. Not one person I know receives a hand out or hand up for doing absolutely nothing. Yet, the media and people on this forum would have you believe that everyone is getting something for nothing. There simply are no statistics to support that.

Everyone? No. Meaningful numbers? Yes. Absolutely nothing? No. They usually have to AT LEAST stand in line.

When you arbitrarily raise the minimum wage or argue to do so, you are giving a hand out to many people who didn't earn it. When you have the sort of cliff vesting benefits that we have that discourages people from working but encourages them to have kids, you do as well.

Just think about this simple statement for a minute. The LOWEST wage that any company should legally allowed to be paid to anyone, regardless of skills, is one that will provide for all of their needs (a living wage) for them to live comfortably all by themselves or even support a family working only 40 hours a week. This is the argument made by most people for raising the minimum wage. I've shown some simple math that proves that people CAN "get by" in most parts of the country on less than $8/hr for 40 hours with some simple choices... often all by themselves... and can do pretty well if they make good choices and work harder (or often just more).

If Wal-Mart only pays you for 30 hours, fine. Take another job somewhere else for another 20. That's 50 hours a week at 8 hours which is 400/week... 4.3 weeks/month less SSI (virtually no taxes withheld) so call it 1600 net a month. $500 for rent, $350 for a car and insurance. $750 left per month for food and entertainment. Spend $250/mo on a decent unsubsidized insurance plan. Living well? Not particularly... will it support a family? No... but far from starving and with ZERO assistance from the government... AND it doesn't stop you from getting married/a roommate, but it would encourage you to wait on kids. If you and your spouse only have the skills to earn minimum wage, or the economy is so weak where you are that this is all that is available, maybe starting a family isn't the best idea.

the MINIMUM wage should reflect the minimal skills and the minimal support. People with kids or special circumstances (never had a chance) should be augmentations to this, and not the base. The BASE is someone who has no family or special circumstances. The fact that someone never had a chance shouldn't be a burden on the employer who is clearly offering them one.

(10-29-2013 01:12 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 12:54 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 12:44 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 12:00 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 11:55 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Every person's circumstances are different and we shouldn't judge a person's success against ours. Just because you got to where you are with hard work doesn't mean that everyone else should be able too as well.

I know plenty of hard working people who never got rich and I know plenty of rich people who never lifted a finger to get what they have.

when did I say I was rich? I'm not.
I said I worked hard and didn't stay at min wage.

who said life was fair? so what if rich people get a leg up?
I can envy and whine about the leg up they got or I can go out and do what I can to better myself and my family.

My point was that if you start at the bottom, show up and work hard every day, you won't stay at the bottom and anyone who argues otherwise is lying.

If by bottom, you mean minimum wage, then obviously you won't be there forever. If bottom means lower class, that's different. Not everyone is bestowed with the ability to make it to college, and not everyone that goes has the mental resources to get a major in something solid. I don't think these people should be condemned and called lazy just because they weren't educated or skilled enough to achieve the American dream.

Ok, then why are you doing it?

It's the left that starts this populist class warfare. This thread is a tiny example of that.

It's you dmac, that are insulting people who don't achieve "the American dream."

What's more insulting:

A. Pretending that these people are all poor because they're lazy.
B. acknowledging that our education system failed them.

Sorry, you're not fooling anyone by trying to flip the script at the people who want to help. Some people never had a chance.

No.

We're not pretending anything. We have facts, history and common sense on our side. Continue to keep people on the dole or dependent on someone or something else, whether it's Mommy and Daddy, a Faith based charity, or vastly worse- the Federal government and eventually you have resigned that person to a life of servitude, misery and likely poverty at some point.

It's a simple, rather lazy excuse to simply say our "education system failed them". Really? How about the graduates of great schools like what we have here locally and the kid decides to break into the local middle school and light it on fire. High School grad that upstanding young citizen.

How about the HVAC guy that I use that never graduated from High School? He makes $25 and hour as a maintenance foreman for an Apartment complex, mostly self taught and now has his own side gig with 3 guys working for him. He's doing just fine. Why? He works hard, 7 days a week if necessary.

No one is flipping any script, it's simply that your script has been tried for generations and trillions of dollars and has failed. Spectacularly.

While it may be admirable that you want to help, what's your definition of helping? Working at the local soup kitchen perhaps? Do you donate time, effort and your own money as much as most of those with a Church affiliation generally do?

Or is it that you simply want to spend other peoples monies through the Federal Government and walk off to pat yourself on the back? We've done that, find another script.

Hell of a post JMUDrunk. +1

(10-29-2013 02:23 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Hell of a post JMUDrunk. +1

Lol. thanks, but uhhh, it's Dunk. Named after my old college dog Duncan... good little fella. haha.

(10-29-2013 02:14 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 01:12 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 12:54 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 12:44 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 12:00 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  when did I say I was rich? I'm not.
I said I worked hard and didn't stay at min wage.

who said life was fair? so what if rich people get a leg up?
I can envy and whine about the leg up they got or I can go out and do what I can to better myself and my family.

My point was that if you start at the bottom, show up and work hard every day, you won't stay at the bottom and anyone who argues otherwise is lying.

If by bottom, you mean minimum wage, then obviously you won't be there forever. If bottom means lower class, that's different. Not everyone is bestowed with the ability to make it to college, and not everyone that goes has the mental resources to get a major in something solid. I don't think these people should be condemned and called lazy just because they weren't educated or skilled enough to achieve the American dream.

Ok, then why are you doing it?

It's the left that starts this populist class warfare. This thread is a tiny example of that.

It's you dmac, that are insulting people who don't achieve "the American dream."

What's more insulting:

A. Pretending that these people are all poor because they're lazy.
B. acknowledging that our education system failed them.

Sorry, you're not fooling anyone by trying to flip the script at the people who want to help. Some people never had a chance.

No.

We're not pretending anything. We have facts, history and common sense on our side. Continue to keep people on the dole or dependent on someone or something else, whether it's Mommy and Daddy, a Faith based charity, or vastly worse- the Federal government and eventually you have resigned that person to a life of servitude, misery and likely poverty at some point.

It's a simple, rather lazy excuse to simply say our "education system failed them". Really? How about the graduates of great schools like what we have here locally and the kid decides to break into the local middle school and light it on fire. High School grad that upstanding young citizen.

How about the HVAC guy that I use that never graduated from High School? He makes $25 and hour as a maintenance foreman for an Apartment complex, mostly self taught and now has his own side gig with 3 guys working for him. He's doing just fine. Why? He works hard, 7 days a week if necessary.

No one is flipping any script, it's simply that your script has been tried for generations and trillions of dollars and has failed. Spectacularly.

While it may be admirable that you want to help, what's your definition of helping? Working at the local soup kitchen perhaps? Do you donate time, effort and your own money as much as most of those with a Church affiliation generally do?

Or is it that you simply want to spend other peoples monies through the Federal Government and walk off to pat yourself on the back? We've done that, find another script.

I don't see this as a one or the other kind of thing. I spent my own money to fly to Louisiana and build houses for Katrina victims. I also believe that it's important to better support education. I honestly believe that education is one of the biggest reasons people stay poor. I understand where you're coming with your stories, but they're just anecdotes. They don't necessarily reflect the average.

(10-29-2013 02:14 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 01:12 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  Sorry, you're not fooling anyone by trying to flip the script at the people who want to help. Some people never had a chance.

No.

We're not pretending anything. We have facts, history and common sense on our side. Continue to keep people on the dole or dependent on someone or something else, whether it's Mommy and Daddy, a Faith based charity, or vastly worse- the Federal government and eventually you have resigned that person to a life of servitude, misery and likely poverty at some point.

It's a simple, rather lazy excuse to simply say our "education system failed them". Really? How about the graduates of great schools like what we have here locally and the kid decides to break into the local middle school and light it on fire. High School grad that upstanding young citizen.

How about the HVAC guy that I use that never graduated from High School? He makes $25 and hour as a maintenance foreman for an Apartment complex, mostly self taught and now has his own side gig with 3 guys working for him. He's doing just fine. Why? He works hard, 7 days a week if necessary.

No one is flipping any script, it's simply that your script has been tried for generations and trillions of dollars and has failed. Spectacularly.

While it may be admirable that you want to help, what's your definition of helping? Working at the local soup kitchen perhaps? Do you donate time, effort and your own money as much as most of those with a Church affiliation generally do?

Or is it that you simply want to spend other peoples monies through the Federal Government and walk off to pat yourself on the back? We've done that, find another script.

+3

Being blind to real desperation in this country is not a virtue.

(10-29-2013 02:37 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  I honestly believe that education is one of the biggest reasons people stay poor.

You honestly believe in the tooth fairy too, but that don't make it so.

Growing up poor changes your brain.

Just an example I stumbled upon today.

(10-29-2013 02:37 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 02:23 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Hell of a post JMUDrunk. +1

Lol. thanks, but uhhh, it's Dunk. Named after my old college dog Duncan... good little fella. haha.

I think it's the beer can throwing me off.

(10-29-2013 02:52 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  Growing up poor changes your brain.

Just an example I stumbled upon today.

I grew up poor and I'm making 6 figures right now.

(10-29-2013 02:59 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 02:52 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  Growing up poor changes your brain.

Just an example I stumbled upon today.

I grew up poor and I'm making 6 figures right now.

Go to your nearest inner city school and see if you think many of those kids have an honest chance.

(10-29-2013 02:59 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 02:52 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  Growing up poor changes your brain.

Just an example I stumbled upon today.

I grew up poor and I'm making 6 figures right now.

How does it feel to be an outlier?

(10-29-2013 02:37 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  I don't see this as a one or the other kind of thing. I spent my own money to fly to Louisiana and build houses for Katrina victims. I also believe that it's important to better support education. I honestly believe that education is one of the biggest reasons people stay poor. I understand where you're coming with your stories, but they're just anecdotes. They don't necessarily reflect the average.

You don't raise the average by lowering the expectations. This is a key part of the failure of our educational system.

More people would feel better about helping others if they knew that those asking for help were already doing all that they could do for themselves. Lots of them are to be certain, but lots of them aren't. The best indicator that people feel this way is the incivility towards those who "live high" (or give the appearance of doing so) while on support. I have 2 kids in college that I support alone, which means that I don't live NEARLY as high as my income would support, and it pisses me off when I do frugal things to give more to my kids only to have them act foolishly with my money. It pisses me off when someone on child support won't wear a condom because they don't like how it feels, but expects the state (me) to pay for the resulting abortion or child... when I wore one as a younger man because I didn't want to have a child.

(10-29-2013 02:42 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Being blind to real desperation in this country is not a virtue.

Neither is being blind to real exploitation.

Few people have a problem with people in desperate situations needing help. Seriously, that is a lie you are telling yourself. They (we) have a problem with people who make OTHERS make sacrifices so that they don't have to.

(10-29-2013 03:01 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 02:59 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 02:52 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  Growing up poor changes your brain.

Just an example I stumbled upon today.

I grew up poor and I'm making 6 figures right now.

Go to your nearest inner city school and see if you think many of those kids have an honest chance.

Consequences of the left's Great Society and other social programs. All predicted well ahead of time, all came to pass.

So leftists don't get a gold star b/c they "care". Just the opposite, they should be punished b/c they admit guilt of propagating a system which they explicitly admit steals opportunity from others.

(10-29-2013 03:01 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 02:59 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 02:52 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  Growing up poor changes your brain.

Just an example I stumbled upon today.

I grew up poor and I'm making 6 figures right now.

Go to your nearest inner city school and see if you think many of those kids have an honest chance.

I've worked in the inner city schools, well county but Va is a little different in how we call places, not a lot of "Cities". But regardless, k-6th grade. You wanna know what their biggest impediment to success was? it wasn't the teachers, Arlington County Va has some outstanding, very well paid Teachers. My own mother for one.

It wasn't a lack of resources, generally wealthy county with pockets of ugliness. It wasn't the administration there were good people running the show as well, perhaps not the blue chippers, but not all of us can be the top dog.

Nope. It wasn't any of that. Or them. it most certainly wasn't the students, these young happy, plenty capable little kids.

Their biggest impediment, to a kid- little Eric. Gizmo, Monique, Alex, Calli, Benito, or any of the other hundreds of kids, simply put- their biggest obstacle to success in their lives? The parents. Or more often parent.

Yep, the ones that would show up half dressed, often times in a robe and slippers at 2:00 o'clock, hair all a mess to chastise a staff member for some alleged grievance. The time I was screamed at, in the open hallway and bodily threatened in front of an entire hallway of students for "You made my Daughter sit out (of whatever activity it was) and she said it was because you said she was a N!@@#&".

True story. And it wasn't a singular incident by any means.

Now, some here, will once again try to dismiss real life experiences as "stories". Try to diminish their worth as perhaps anecdotal. But at some time, even a trained "scientist" draws upon that which is clearly right before their eyes.

That this isn't hypothesis, theory or that voo-doo that you do. It's fact. It's life. It's not running a "model" or crunching endless numbers.

Perhaps if more of our well meaning social engineers actually spent some real time, of their real lives, in the very surroundings they purport to be experts on, they wouldn't screw things up so magnificently each and every time. Sometimes the simple answers are really, just simple.

Just a thought.