http://finance.yahoo.com/news/solar-pane...21343.html

In some communities.

This is another trainwreck coming. Contractors will charge extra, and do a poor installation job. The panels will wear out, or worse cause more problems to the home, all costing the homeowner even more money.

In the mean time, people will owe more and the banksters will make out alright.

People were outraged at "predatory lending" yet they cheer for this corruption.

Often wondered why far out green states like California did not do this a long time ago.
Agree, will be a lot of problems, but the Progs will think it's great.
How many times have they installed and taken down solar energy panels from the White House.
Probably much better than wind turbine legislature though.

And if people don't buy them?

Required? Terrible idea.
As an upgrade option? Great idea!

I would love to have solar panels on my roof but there is no ROI so it won't happen. We need this technology to take off and get cheaper, without China. I would live a US manufacturer to invent a new method of production and offer perhaps a shingle with a solar panel built in. May e using the wireless power transfer technology used in cell phone charging stations.

Positive Rep me and I'll vote for Obama in 2016

(09-16-2013 07:16 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  http://finance.yahoo.com/news/solar-pane...21343.html

In some communities.

This is another trainwreck coming. Contractors will charge extra, and do a poor installation job. The panels will wear out, or worse cause more problems to the home, all costing the homeowner even more money.

In the mean time, people will owe more and the banksters will make out alright.

People were outraged at "predatory lending" yet they cheer for this corruption.

Panels don't really wear out. They are less efficient over time, but they have no moving parts, so they never really break. If they do, they have a 25 year warranty.

Having panels installed when you build your house can actually save a ton of money. A lot of solar companies mark up the installation quite a bit, but the panels themselves can be had for pretty cheap these days and if you have them installed when the house is being built, a lot of added cost can be avoided.

They're also easy to install, any competent general contractor can get the panels on the roof and then you just need a certified electrician to tie it into the breaker.

I don't really agree with making them required, but I do like a policy they enacted in Texas (not sure if it was just a city or the entire state) that requires homebuilders to offer a solar package with every home.

If you roll solar panels into the cost of your mortgage, the added cost to your mortgage is generally a good bit less than the amount of energy saved, so you're net income positive from day 1. It is the smartest way to install solar.

(09-16-2013 11:05 AM)Niner National Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 07:16 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  http://finance.yahoo.com/news/solar-pane...21343.html

In some communities.

This is another trainwreck coming. Contractors will charge extra, and do a poor installation job. The panels will wear out, or worse cause more problems to the home, all costing the homeowner even more money.

In the mean time, people will owe more and the banksters will make out alright.

People were outraged at "predatory lending" yet they cheer for this corruption.

Panels don't really wear out. They are less efficient over time, but they have no moving parts, so they never really break. If they do, they have a 25 year warranty.

The efficiency can go so low as to be worthless. And that's a problem b/c it's hard to guage and instead of utilities estimating correctly for future needs, they will be low.

The brackets and mounts can be subject to corrosion. Those can break. There is actually already concern about that. Connectors too. (Calif might not be a bad place for corrosion in all fairness).

Quote:Having panels installed when you build your house can actually save a ton of money. A lot of solar companies mark up the installation quite a bit, but the panels themselves can be had for pretty cheap these days and if you have them installed when the house is being built, a lot of added cost can be avoided.

They're also easy to install, any competent general contractor can get the panels on the roof and then you just need a certified electrician to tie it into the breaker.

I get your points, and things like that are done better during construction...if you have a good builder. Mass market builders are known for taking shortcuts, and taking shortcuts can lead to leaks and roof damage, as well as electrical issues. I wouldn't be surprised if several are installed improperly and provide no benefit to the homeowner (how does he tell?)

Quote:I don't really agree with making them required, but I do like a policy they enacted in Texas (not sure if it was just a city or the entire state) that requires homebuilders to offer a solar package with every home.

Works for me. Wouldn't mind seeing some gov't tested windmills (made in USA) available for new homes in Chi suburbs and other windy places.

Quote:If you roll solar panels into the cost of your mortgage, the added cost to your mortgage is generally a good bit less than the amount of energy saved, so you're net income positive from day 1. It is the smartest way to install solar.

Doesn't that depend on electricity rates?


Thanks I45 Owl

I did the math about 5 years ago and it was a wash over the life of the panel.

Even though Obama put stacks of money in his solar energy buddy's pockets, the cost stayed the same. The only thing that makes them a small ROI is the cost of energy has dramatically increased since 2008. I wonder why?

"If you can't win at something, cheat" - Barrack Obama

It might be fun in a geek way to have a solar panel to charge your mobile technology.

(09-16-2013 03:24 PM)Jerry Falwell Wrote:  I did the math about 5 years ago and it was a wash over the life of the panel.

Even though Obama put stacks of money in his solar energy buddy's pockets, the cost stayed the same. The only thing that makes them a small ROI is the cost of energy has dramatically increased since 2008. I wonder why?

"If you can't win at something, cheat" - Barrack Obama

Solar panels have dropped in cost by more than 75% from 5 years ago...

I priced out a 2kW system for my townhome (that's all my roof could hold) about 9 months ago and if I bought the panels myself and installed them myself (easy to do) I was only looking at around $4,000-$4,500. Another $500 to have an electrician handle the electrical work to tie everything into the breaker.

Payback would have been around 12.5 years without claiming any incentives available. Seems like a long time, but any power source has a long ROI. Nuclear plants and new coal plants take 30+ years to break even.

Solar has changed a lot in the last 5 years. There are now systems with the inverters and the racking integrated into the panels. Some are nearly plug and play, you just need an electrician to handle the breaker work since that is required by law in most areas. You don't really NEED a professional to install it. If you can screw things in place and plug wires together there is little margin for error.

One of the reasons we're seeing energy prices increase so much is we have ancient generation facilities in a lot of places. As these facilities are replaced the utilities are taking on billions in debt to finance new generation. Regulated energy markets have kept prices artificially low for years, preventing utilities from investing in new generation facilities. Instead they kept the plants running for far longer than they should have and some now have to be replaced because they're so inefficient that it doesn't make financial sense to run plants that operate at 30-40% efficiency as fuel costs have increased due to global competition.

(09-16-2013 04:30 PM)Niner National Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 03:24 PM)Jerry Falwell Wrote:  I did the math about 5 years ago and it was a wash over the life of the panel.

Even though Obama put stacks of money in his solar energy buddy's pockets, the cost stayed the same. The only thing that makes them a small ROI is the cost of energy has dramatically increased since 2008. I wonder why?

"If you can't win at something, cheat" - Barrack Obama

Solar panels have dropped in cost by more than 75% from 5 years ago...

I priced out a 2kW system for my townhome (that's all my roof could hold) about 9 months ago and if I bought the panels myself and installed them myself (easy to do) I was only looking at around $4,000-$4,500. Another $500 to have an electrician handle the electrical work to tie everything into the breaker.

Payback would have been around 12.5 years without claiming any incentives available.

That's pretty interesting.

(09-16-2013 07:16 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  http://finance.yahoo.com/news/solar-pane...21343.html

In some communities.

This is another trainwreck coming. Contractors will charge extra, and do a poor installation job. The panels will wear out, or worse cause more problems to the home, all costing the homeowner even more money.

In the mean time, people will owe more and the banksters will make out alright.

People were outraged at "predatory lending" yet they cheer for this corruption.

WOW! Two whole towns in the entire state of California?

C'mon Torchy...aren't you putting the cart slightly before the horse here? You're already crying crime and corruption and demeaning multiple industires with zero basis in reality other than your hatred of anything resembling a mandate.

(09-16-2013 04:40 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 04:30 PM)Niner National Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 03:24 PM)Jerry Falwell Wrote:  I did the math about 5 years ago and it was a wash over the life of the panel.

Even though Obama put stacks of money in his solar energy buddy's pockets, the cost stayed the same. The only thing that makes them a small ROI is the cost of energy has dramatically increased since 2008. I wonder why?

"If you can't win at something, cheat" - Barrack Obama

Solar panels have dropped in cost by more than 75% from 5 years ago...

I priced out a 2kW system for my townhome (that's all my roof could hold) about 9 months ago and if I bought the panels myself and installed them myself (easy to do) I was only looking at around $4,000-$4,500. Another $500 to have an electrician handle the electrical work to tie everything into the breaker.

Payback would have been around 12.5 years without claiming any incentives available.

That's pretty interesting.

I forgot to note that I didn't buy them because my HOA wouldn't allow them. Legally my townhome is a condo, so the roof is considered shared space and solar panels can't be installed on a shared roof.

You can get wholesale panels for less than $1.00/watt though if you look hard enough.

I've found Canadian Solar panels for $.91/watt before.

Just like with anything, if you install it yourself you can save a ton of money.

(09-16-2013 04:58 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 07:16 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  http://finance.yahoo.com/news/solar-pane...21343.html

In some communities.

This is another trainwreck coming. Contractors will charge extra, and do a poor installation job. The panels will wear out, or worse cause more problems to the home, all costing the homeowner even more money.

In the mean time, people will owe more and the banksters will make out alright.

People were outraged at "predatory lending" yet they cheer for this corruption.

WOW! Two whole towns in the entire state of California?

C'mon Torchy...aren't you putting the cart slightly before the horse here? You're already crying crime and corruption and demeaning multiple industires with zero basis in reality other than your hatred of anything resembling a mandate.

Troll is gonna troll.

For a political party who preaches about hating being "indebted for oil in the middle east", Conservatives sure are against alternative energy.

If there is good enough technology to store solar energy in batteries this could at least help power situations where power lines
are down for a time. Imagine that would be too costly though, or too inefficient.

(09-16-2013 06:43 PM)mathenis89 Wrote:  For a political party who preaches about hating being "indebted for oil in the middle east", Conservatives sure are against alternative energy.

And exactly what alternative would make us significantly less dependent on oil from the Mideast?

(09-16-2013 06:49 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 06:43 PM)mathenis89 Wrote:  For a political party who preaches about hating being "indebted for oil in the middle east", Conservatives sure are against alternative energy.

And exactly what alternative would make us significantly less dependent on oil from the Mideast?

Heavy buildout of wind and solar, coupled with heavy adoption of electric vehicles and/or hydrogen fuel cell.

Of course, most of our oil doesn't come directly from the Middle East anyway. I'd be all for trying the experiment of just getting the **** out of the Middle East entirely and seeing if that really had a significant negative impact on our oil prices.

(09-16-2013 06:55 PM)JOwl Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 06:49 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 06:43 PM)mathenis89 Wrote:  For a political party who preaches about hating being "indebted for oil in the middle east", Conservatives sure are against alternative energy.

And exactly what alternative would make us significantly less dependent on oil from the Mideast?

Heavy buildout of wind and solar, coupled with heavy adoption of electric vehicles and/or hydrogen fuel cell.

Of course, most of our oil doesn't come directly from the Middle East anyway. I'd be all for trying the experiment of just getting the **** out of the Middle East entirely and seeing if that really had a significant negative impact on our oil prices.

Not any time soon. Obama's goal of one million electric cars on the road by 2015 saves us something well short of 1% of oil usage. And substantial advances in electric car technology, along with substantial infrastructure improvements, are needed to make it work. And until we have 40-50 million electric cars on the road, with substantially longer range than today, solar and wind won't reduce oil demand to any material degree.

Hydrogen fuel cells are a great idea except it takes humongous amounts of energy to isolate hydrogen (and where does that energy come from), plus the infrastructure requirements are daunting, plus there are some safety issues.

I would agree that we need to get out of the Mideast to the extent possible. Sugar cane ethanol from Latin America, converting fleets to CNG and railroads back to electric, and, yes, drill baby drill offer the best prospects of doing so in the shortest time frame.

One other point. Cost is not the only consideration. There are economic and other advantages to producing domestically, whether or not the price per barrel/gallon is directly impacted. Same to importing from closer countries that like us rather than from far away countries that hate us .