(08-29-2013 04:26 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 03:30 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 02:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  We could eliminate the debt, the drug cartels, and the gun smuggling problems by simply legalizing and taxing weed.

But that would be too easy.

No "we" couldn't.

Simple things for simple minds.

Why couldn't we?

1 - Debt do you have any clue how much weed would have to be sold for the taxes on it ti make the smallest noticeable dent in the debt? Our *deficit* in in the trillion dollar range now.

2 - Cartels are cartels. If weed wsa legal they would go to something else or some other activity that makes them money. If you make *anything* illegal they will swoop in on it.

3 - Gun Smuggling - See #2 ... Gambling, Sex Trafficking, other drugs...

(08-30-2013 02:01 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 02:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  We could eliminate the debt, the drug cartels, and the gun smuggling problems by simply legalizing and taxing weed.

But that would be too easy.

Im not saying it should or should not be legal but if you think guns, cartels, and especially the debt would be "eliminated" but legal weed you are way too in love with weed..

The prohibition on Cannabis clearly has created a dangerous black market and has lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people during its reign starting in the 30's. The most current danger is to our South. In 2008 the estimated death toll in Mexico was estimated at over 6000. That has not let up since then. I think a very good case can be made that great harm reduction can be accomplished by eliminating the ban on Cannabis.

Fit may be over stating the case in regard to debt reduction..but..Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that Cannabis is not BIG business and that the cost of enforcing the the laws are not huge. Recent estimates put our enforcement efforts around 50 Billion annually. That is not chump change. In addition it is estimated that legalization of Cannabis in California could generate revenues of over 40 Billion annually. So..There is a case to be made that major cost reductions and revenue generation are possible by legalizing Cannabis. There is also the bonus of adding a brand new sector of business to the economy and thus job creation and tax revenue generation.

(08-30-2013 06:26 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(08-30-2013 02:01 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 02:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  We could eliminate the debt, the drug cartels, and the gun smuggling problems by simply legalizing and taxing weed.

But that would be too easy.

Im not saying it should or should not be legal but if you think guns, cartels, and especially the debt would be "eliminated" but legal weed you are way too in love with weed..

The prohibition on Cannabis clearly has created a dangerous black market and has lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people during its reign starting in the 30's. The most current danger is to our South. In 2008 the estimated death toll in Mexico was estimated at over 6000. That has not let up since then. I think a very good case can be made that great harm reduction can be accomplished by eliminating the ban on Cannabis.

Fit may be over stating the case in regard to debt reduction..but..Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that Cannabis is not BIG business and that the cost of enforcing the the laws are not huge. Recent estimates put our enforcement efforts around 50 Billion annually. That is not chump change. In addition it is estimated that legalization of Cannabis in California could generate revenues of over 40 Billion annually. So..There is a case to be made that major cost reductions and revenue generation are possible by legalizing Cannabis. There is also the bonus of adding a brand new sector of business to the economy and thus job creation and tax revenue generation.

I never said it was not I said the folks who make a ton of money on Cannabis would find something else to make money and shoot people over.

edit - I also never said I thought it should be illegal..

(08-30-2013 06:50 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-30-2013 06:26 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(08-30-2013 02:01 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 02:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  We could eliminate the debt, the drug cartels, and the gun smuggling problems by simply legalizing and taxing weed.

But that would be too easy.

Im not saying it should or should not be legal but if you think guns, cartels, and especially the debt would be "eliminated" but legal weed you are way too in love with weed..

The prohibition on Cannabis clearly has created a dangerous black market and has lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people during its reign starting in the 30's. The most current danger is to our South. In 2008 the estimated death toll in Mexico was estimated at over 6000. That has not let up since then. I think a very good case can be made that great harm reduction can be accomplished by eliminating the ban on Cannabis.

Fit may be over stating the case in regard to debt reduction..but..Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that Cannabis is not BIG business and that the cost of enforcing the the laws are not huge. Recent estimates put our enforcement efforts around 50 Billion annually. That is not chump change. In addition it is estimated that legalization of Cannabis in California could generate revenues of over 40 Billion annually. So..There is a case to be made that major cost reductions and revenue generation are possible by legalizing Cannabis. There is also the bonus of adding a brand new sector of business to the economy and thus job creation and tax revenue generation.

I never said it was not I said the folks who make a ton of money on Cannabis would find something else to make money and shoot people over.

edit - I also never said I thought it should be illegal..

Fair enough.

What makes us think that those that are engaged now illegally in the Cannabis industry are suddenly going to remove themselves from the business if it became legal?
I submit they would simply then grow, distribute and sell legally without the risk of the black market..which is the basis for the violence.
Those that were engaged in making alcohol during prohibition were often former distillers. They returned to that occupation after the 21st amendment.
The potential profits combined with elimination of risk would lead one to think that a new legitimate segment of the economy would emerge in the USA very quickly.

(08-30-2013 06:26 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Fit may be over stating the case in regard to debt reduction

May be? That's a definite.

Besides, I don't see Fit expressing any concerns about other gov't overreach, which also costs the country dollars and liberty.

Nor do I see him addressing the high taxes put on other "sins" which lead to criminal activity...he's happy to be delusional that high taxes won't propagate the violence.

Anyway, yeah, make it legal, put a 15% tax on it, and see what happens. My guess is that with the decreased revenue from alcohol and tobacco taxes, there will be no net gain in revenue. The benefits will come from reduced costs for DEA and police (should they choose to scale back).

(08-30-2013 08:34 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(08-30-2013 06:26 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Fit may be over stating the case in regard to debt reduction

May be? That's a definite.

Besides, I don't see Fit expressing any concerns about other gov't overreach, which also costs the country dollars and liberty.

Nor do I see him addressing the high taxes put on other "sins" which lead to criminal activity...he's happy to be delusional that high taxes won't propagate the violence.

Anyway, yeah, make it legal, put a 15% tax on it, and see what happens. My guess is that with the decreased revenue from alcohol and tobacco taxes, there will be no net gain in revenue. The benefits will come from reduced costs for DEA and police (should they choose to scale back).

You make a salient point. Government does have a hard time ever scaling back anything. There is a very good probability that those resources would be shifted to other targets. That could be fine if those targets are legit. It also could mean the targets could be us.

(08-29-2013 02:07 PM)john01992 Wrote:  http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/29/politics/h...?hpt=hp_c2

(08-30-2013 07:07 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  What makes us think that those that are engaged now illegally in the Cannabis industry are suddenly going to remove themselves from the business if it became legal?

When Prohibition ended the worst and most violent of the bootleggers moved onto other things. Thugs are thugs and if they can make a boatload of money through crime or a slightly smaller boat load through hard work guess which they will choose?

Quote:I submit they would simply then grow, distribute and sell legally without the risk of the black market..which is the basis for the violence.

Nope... Farmer, and some regular folks will grow and sell it here. Pot, when legal, is going to cost a hell of a lot less. That means smaller profit margins. It also puts you under the regulatory arm of the US ,making profits even less.

The most violent of the cartells will turn to something illegal, hence something with a higher margin.

Quote:Those that were engaged in making alcohol during prohibition were often former distillers. They returned to that occupation after the 21st amendment.

The people shooting others in the street and employing the distillers went back to thugging other things.

Some will quit and yes there will be a downturn in violence but making one illegal drug legal, especially one as benign (or so were told) as pot is not going to reduce demand for other illegal drugs.

(08-29-2013 02:52 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  The point of Marxism is to create a dysfunctional society. Pot is a pretty good tool to use in that effort.

It's also good when listening to Pink Floyd. Not that I've done that (more than once or twice anyways).

(08-29-2013 03:15 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 02:52 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  The point of Marxism is to create a dysfunctional society. Pot is a pretty good tool to use in that effort.

Is there no bottom to your paranoia?

Does anyone else see the irony that someone advocating pot being illegal is the one being accused of paranoia?

(08-30-2013 11:24 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-30-2013 07:07 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  What makes us think that those that are engaged now illegally in the Cannabis industry are suddenly going to remove themselves from the business if it became legal?

When Prohibition ended the worst and most violent of the bootleggers moved onto other things. Thugs are thugs and if they can make a boatload of money through crime or a slightly smaller boat load through hard work guess which they will choose?

That's the concern that I've always had, but it still seems to me that the black market for other items is likely to be far less lucrative than drugs. If the Mexican Cartels transition from selling Meth to peddling counterfeit Gucci handbags, then so be it.

(08-30-2013 11:24 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(08-30-2013 07:07 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  What makes us think that those that are engaged now illegally in the Cannabis industry are suddenly going to remove themselves from the business if it became legal?

When Prohibition ended the worst and most violent of the bootleggers moved onto other things. Thugs are thugs and if they can make a boatload of money through crime or a slightly smaller boat load through hard work guess which they will choose?

Quote:I submit they would simply then grow, distribute and sell legally without the risk of the black market..which is the basis for the violence.

Nope... Farmer, and some regular folks will grow and sell it here. Pot, when legal, is going to cost a hell of a lot less. That means smaller profit margins. It also puts you under the regulatory arm of the US ,making profits even less.

The most violent of the cartells will turn to something illegal, hence something with a higher margin.

Quote:Those that were engaged in making alcohol during prohibition were often former distillers. They returned to that occupation after the 21st amendment.

The people shooting others in the street and employing the distillers went back to thugging other things.

Some will quit and yes there will be a downturn in violence but making one illegal drug legal, especially one as benign (or so were told) as pot is not going to reduce demand for other illegal drugs.

No argument that thugs will be thugs. There is nothing we can do about that segment of society except allow law enforcement to do their jobs.

I'm not sure if margins would decrease that much. Most of the cost of street Cannabis comes from the risk involved in getting the product to market from growing to delivery...Removing that risk eliminates a giant amount of overhead and brings competition into play in regard to transportation, marketing,mass production..ect..ect..ect Reduced overhead allows for lower prices. It does not though necessarily mean less profit.

The amount of overhead involved in a product is as important to the profit margin as how much you sell it for. In a competitive situation...it is even more important.

Good to know the reason libs support this is because they think it will decrease our debt and halt our cartels and gun/drug trafficking. How much more damn delusional can you be. Here's an idea, increase Border Security and stop treating illegal mexicans like true blue American heroes... If they try to cross illegaly, shoot them.

*edit - with bean bags or salt rocks.

Wait, did you just call Owl 69/70/75 a liberal too?

(08-30-2013 03:27 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  Good to know the reason libs support this is because they think it will decrease our debt and halt our cartels and gun/drug trafficking. How much more damn delusional can you be. Here's an idea, increase Border Security and stop treating illegal mexicans like true blue American heroes... If they try to cross illegaly, shoot them.

*edit - with bean bags or salt rocks.

If this rationale is what it takes to lure on of the gangs to come to its senses on this issue then fine. If I was in the GOP I would be very afraid that this issue might just the difference in winning and losing in 16. The Libs may well have fired the first shot on this. Is the GOP going to answer? I hope so.

As to beefing up the border...that is fine..but I would prefer we just stop giving people the incentive to come here by not giving them welfare handouts and free healthcare. How about jail time for those that hire them? It is much easier to just build fences and waste damn bunch of money on more border agents I suppose.

(08-30-2013 03:29 PM)I45owl Wrote:  Wait, did you just call Owl 69/70/75 a liberal too?

Me? No. I called out liberals who think legal weed would decrease debt and slow down basically most of our crime.

(08-30-2013 03:29 PM)I45owl Wrote:  Wait, did you just call Owl 69/70/75 a liberal too?

Me also...I just ignored the insult.

(08-30-2013 03:35 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(08-30-2013 03:27 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  Good to know the reason libs support this is because they think it will decrease our debt and halt our cartels and gun/drug trafficking. How much more damn delusional can you be. Here's an idea, increase Border Security and stop treating illegal mexicans like true blue American heroes... If they try to cross illegaly, shoot them.

*edit - with bean bags or salt rocks.

If this rationale is what it takes to lure on of the gangs to come to its senses on this issue then fine. If I was in the GOP I would be very afraid that this issue might just the difference in winning and losing in 16. The Libs may well have fired the first shot on this. Is the GOP going to answer? I hope so.

As to beefing up the border...that is fine..but I would prefer we just stop giving people the incentive to come here by not giving them welfare handouts and free healthcare. How about jail time for those that hire them? It is much easier to just build fences and waste damn bunch of money on more border agents I suppose.

Something has to give, I just can't see weed legalization being the answer. Whether it would solve other problems, I don't know, but solving crime and debt, no. They'd have to go for the bigger fish to fix that.

(08-30-2013 03:35 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(08-30-2013 03:29 PM)I45owl Wrote:  Wait, did you just call Owl 69/70/75 a liberal too?

Me? No. I called out liberals who think legal weed would decrease debt and slow down basically most of our crime.

You were going by the opinion of one poster. I don't think most Libs would be as hyperbolic as he was. His point is valid...just way overstated.

(08-30-2013 03:38 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(08-30-2013 03:35 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(08-30-2013 03:27 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  Good to know the reason libs support this is because they think it will decrease our debt and halt our cartels and gun/drug trafficking. How much more damn delusional can you be. Here's an idea, increase Border Security and stop treating illegal mexicans like true blue American heroes... If they try to cross illegaly, shoot them.

*edit - with bean bags or salt rocks.

If this rationale is what it takes to lure on of the gangs to come to its senses on this issue then fine. If I was in the GOP I would be very afraid that this issue might just the difference in winning and losing in 16. The Libs may well have fired the first shot on this. Is the GOP going to answer? I hope so.

As to beefing up the border...that is fine..but I would prefer we just stop giving people the incentive to come here by not giving them welfare handouts and free healthcare. How about jail time for those that hire them? It is much easier to just build fences and waste damn bunch of money on more border agents I suppose.

Something has to give, I just can't see weed legalization being the answer. Whether it would solve other problems, I don't know, but solving crime and debt, no. They'd have to go for the bigger fish to fix that.

It is not the answer. It is just the right thing to do. The idea that I can buy Vodka and not Cannabis is absurd.