Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

(04-20-2013 06:44 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  As Glenn Greenwald put it today, "The reason to care what happens to him is because how he is treated creates precedent for what the US government is empowered to do, including to US citizens on US soil. When you cheer for the erosion of his rights, you're cheering for the erosion of your own."

glenn greenwald thinks stop signs represent an erosion of our rights. the hate filled little bastard acquired his citizenship on fraudulent grounds while he was almost certainly planning the terrorist plot that maimed dozens of people.

he was a citizen for 7 months. lot's of things are genuinely slippery slopes. this isn't one of them. flock him.

(04-20-2013 07:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

The difference is we're talking about the rights of law abiding citizens vs the rights of a guy who kills Americans. Two different animals.

(04-20-2013 05:01 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 04:50 PM)Smaug Wrote:  He's an American citizen accused of committing a criminal act against Americans in America.

He gets his due process or none of us is safe.

For the people who ***** about the president ignoring the Constitution (and, admittedly, I'm one of them) we'd better damned well be ready to honor it.

I think the citizenship argument is empty.

he has been an american citizen for 7 months, and almost without question it was acquired fraudulently. there is no way he wasn't in the planning stages of the terrorist attack when he was going through the citizenship process. concealing facts or lying to the USCIS is grounds for revocation, to say nothing of planting a 50 pound bomb next to an 8 year old boy and his little sister.

You are speculating.

(04-20-2013 07:07 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

The difference is we're talking about the rights of law abiding citizens vs the rights of a guy who kills Americans. Two different animals.

Which section of the Constitution says that? I must've missed it.

That's the whole point of rights. They apply to everyone equally, from the guilty to the innocent. And, legally, this guy is currently innocent.

(04-20-2013 07:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

that is simply incorrect. he has no constitutional rights if he he acquired his citizenship upon fraudulent grounds in the first place (all of 7 months ago), which is almost certainly the case. there are many worthy grounds for denaturalization in the case of this hateful little bastard.

(04-20-2013 07:07 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

The difference is we're talking about the rights of law abiding citizens vs the rights of a guy who kills Americans. Two different animals.

No.

He doesn't lose his rights because he is accused of a crime, same as you wouldn't.

(04-20-2013 07:10 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

that is simply incorrect. he has no constitutional rights if he he acquired his citizenship upon fraudulent grounds in the first place (all of 7 months ago), which is almost certainly the case. there are many worthy grounds for denaturalization in the case of this hateful little bastard.

You keep saying that.

(04-20-2013 07:08 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 05:01 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 04:50 PM)Smaug Wrote:  He's an American citizen accused of committing a criminal act against Americans in America.

He gets his due process or none of us is safe.

For the people who ***** about the president ignoring the Constitution (and, admittedly, I'm one of them) we'd better damned well be ready to honor it.

I think the citizenship argument is empty.

he has been an american citizen for 7 months, and almost without question it was acquired fraudulently. there is no way he wasn't in the planning stages of the terrorist attack when he was going through the citizenship process. concealing facts or lying to the USCIS is grounds for revocation, to say nothing of planting a 50 pound bomb next to an 8 year old boy and his little sister.

You are speculating.

and you, my friend*, are whistling past the graveyard on this one.

*I have read and admired many of your posts in the past. I probably wouldn't even be in the spin room (which I avoided like the plague) if CUSABBS hadn't gone to hell on a hat rack.

(04-20-2013 07:10 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

that is simply incorrect. he has no constitutional rights if he he acquired his citizenship upon fraudulent grounds in the first place (all of 7 months ago), which is almost certainly the case. there are many worthy grounds for denaturalization in the case of this hateful little bastard.

He can't just have his citizenship revoked, that has to go through due process (read: court) as well. And, participating in criminal activity doesn't instantly mean you get stripped of citizenship. If it turns out these two were lone actors and not members of AQ or some other organization, it might be difficult to make a case to revoke citizenship. At any rate, at this particular moment of time he's a citizen and he's due his rights. If, through the due process of the justice system he loses that citizenship he should still be afforded the process, rights, and humane treatment that we claim to promote and champion.

(04-20-2013 07:10 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

that is simply incorrect. he has no constitutional rights if he he acquired his citizenship upon fraudulent grounds in the first place (all of 7 months ago), which is almost certainly the case. there are many worthy grounds for denaturalization in the case of this hateful little bastard.

What do you mean by fraudulent grounds? He didn't buy his passport on the black market. He went through the normal naturalization process just like anyone else. His future intentions, if he even had them at that time, in no way make it fraudulent.

(04-20-2013 07:12 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:10 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

that is simply incorrect. he has no constitutional rights if he he acquired his citizenship upon fraudulent grounds in the first place (all of 7 months ago), which is almost certainly the case. there are many worthy grounds for denaturalization in the case of this hateful little bastard.

You keep saying that.

that's because it keeps being true.

(04-20-2013 07:11 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:07 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

The difference is we're talking about the rights of law abiding citizens vs the rights of a guy who kills Americans. Two different animals.

No.

He doesn't lose his rights because he is accused of a crime, same as you wouldn't.

True. I should have gone on to say that with the stroke of Obamas pen he could have taken gun rights away from innocent people and made them unlawful people over night.

(04-20-2013 07:16 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:11 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:07 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

The difference is we're talking about the rights of law abiding citizens vs the rights of a guy who kills Americans. Two different animals.

No.

He doesn't lose his rights because he is accused of a crime, same as you wouldn't.

True. I should have gone on to say that with the stroke of Obamas pen he could have taken gun rights away from innocent people and made them unlawful people over night.

huh?

And just let me say it's a rare night that I'm on the same side of an argument with Smaug and BlazerFan11 that doesn't involve Division I schools in the state of Alabama.

(04-20-2013 07:15 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:10 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

that is simply incorrect. he has no constitutional rights if he he acquired his citizenship upon fraudulent grounds in the first place (all of 7 months ago), which is almost certainly the case. there are many worthy grounds for denaturalization in the case of this hateful little bastard.

What do you mean by fraudulent grounds? He didn't buy his passport on the black market. He went through the normal naturalization process just like anyone else. His future intentions, if he even had them at that time, in no way make it fraudulent.

what do you think that the process of obtaining US citizenship entails? it simply isn't a purely administrative process of pushing around paperwork. you swear fidelity, you swear off old allegiances. you sign documents that are statements of the past and present actions.

it's just absurd to think that this guy had a hard on to be an american 6 months ago without a ton of ulterior motives.

(04-20-2013 07:18 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:16 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:11 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:07 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

The difference is we're talking about the rights of law abiding citizens vs the rights of a guy who kills Americans. Two different animals.

No.

He doesn't lose his rights because he is accused of a crime, same as you wouldn't.

True. I should have gone on to say that with the stroke of Obamas pen he could have taken gun rights away from innocent people and made them unlawful people over night.

huh?

And just let me say it's a rare night that I'm on the same side of an argument with Smaug and BlazerFan11 that doesn't involve Division I schools in the state of Alabama.

It's a pain in the butt typing out long responses on an iPad But I was comparing guns rights to the rights of criminals.

(04-20-2013 07:16 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:12 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:10 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

that is simply incorrect. he has no constitutional rights if he he acquired his citizenship upon fraudulent grounds in the first place (all of 7 months ago), which is almost certainly the case. there are many worthy grounds for denaturalization in the case of this hateful little bastard.

You keep saying that.

that's because it keeps being true.

Except you don't know that.

(04-20-2013 07:18 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:16 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:11 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:07 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

The difference is we're talking about the rights of law abiding citizens vs the rights of a guy who kills Americans. Two different animals.

No.

He doesn't lose his rights because he is accused of a crime, same as you wouldn't.

True. I should have gone on to say that with the stroke of Obamas pen he could have taken gun rights away from innocent people and made them unlawful people over night.

huh?

And just let me say it's a rare night that I'm on the same side of an argument with Smaug and BlazerFan11 that doesn't involve Division I schools in the state of Alabama.

as your neighbor, I found that very funny. but in that uncomfortable, "we're all flucked" kind of way.

(04-20-2013 07:23 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:15 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:10 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm really disappointed in many people here that I've seen berate Obama about trampling on certain Constitutional rights (2nd amendment) but on the other hand want us to just ignore this guy's 5th and 6th amendment rights. If you support the Constitution, you have to support all of it, otherwise shut up on the rest of it. And, Smaug's right: ignoring this guy's rights this time around may make you feel good but in 20 years when you're on a plane to Gitmo you might think differently.

that is simply incorrect. he has no constitutional rights if he he acquired his citizenship upon fraudulent grounds in the first place (all of 7 months ago), which is almost certainly the case. there are many worthy grounds for denaturalization in the case of this hateful little bastard.

What do you mean by fraudulent grounds? He didn't buy his passport on the black market. He went through the normal naturalization process just like anyone else. His future intentions, if he even had them at that time, in no way make it fraudulent.

what do you think that the process of obtaining US citizenship entails? it simply isn't a purely administrative process of pushing around paperwork. you swear fidelity, you swear off old allegiances. you sign documents that are statements of the past and present actions.

it's just absurd to think that this guy had a hard on to be an american 6 months ago without a ton of ulterior motives.

He's been in the US for over a decade. He didn't sign up to do it 7 months ago. From what I've heard his brother was likely the leader of this thing and he was just following along because he looked up to his brother so much. Of course that's speculation but there is a tiny bit of evidence behind it. At any rate, if there's evidence he was a member of a radical group for longer than he's been a citizen, OK. If this plot started after that, or there's no larger group, then try again.

He killed four people. There is a huge reaction to this thing like it was 9/11. Yes, it was a terrible act, and yes, he should and will pay for it, and yes the loss of those four people is horrible. It doesn't mean we should act as if the republic will fall if we don't literally run this guy through a wood chipper.

I want the kid strung up by his Buster Browns as much as anybody, but I want due process to be respected even more.