So your criteria for admittance are:

A. OOC W/L record regardless of SOS
B. Poor in-conference performance.
C. Disregard for the one direct way to contribute to the league's income.

Alrighty then

(03-23-2013 05:53 PM)Title Wrote:  So your criteria for admittance are:

A. OOC W/L record regardless of SOS
B. Poor in-conference performance.
C. Disregard for the one direct way to contribute to the league's income.

Alrighty then

My criteria are: (In no particular order)

1. Fan support
2. Institutional fit
3. On court/field success
4. Media Market
5. Geographic Footprint.

The schools who have all of those qualities have already been added. The rest have some but not all of the qualities.

SLU is almost there. Dayton is 4 out of 5. VCU 2 out of 5 to me. Gonzaga 3 of 5. Wichita St is 3 of 5. Detroit is 3 of 5.

SLU I think is in period.

Now-
Fan support- Dayton vs VCU- probably ad Dayton, but a LOT closer than you think
Institutional fit- ad Dayton
on court- ad VCU
Media market- Richmond 57 Dayton 63- ad VCU http://www.tvb.org/media/file/TVB_Market...Ranks2.pdf
Geographic footprint- both fit, but VCU isn't a duplicate market in the way Dayton is.

So VCU has the advantage in 2 of the 5 that you list. Dayton has the advantage in 2, a lot closer than you think in one of them(based on the A10 tourney). Tiebreaker to me is the Geographic footprint, VCU not being a duplicate market while Dayton is. I didn't realize specifically how small Dayton's market is. If you say you have to consider the surrounding, we have that surrounding already between Butler and Xavier.

(03-23-2013 10:01 PM)stever20 Wrote:  SLU I think is in period.

Now-
Fan support- Dayton vs VCU- probably ad Dayton, but a LOT closer than you think
Institutional fit- ad Dayton
on court- ad VCU
Media market- Richmond 57 Dayton 63- ad VCU http://www.tvb.org/media/file/TVB_Market...Ranks2.pdf
Geographic footprint- both fit, but VCU isn't a duplicate market in the way Dayton is.

So VCU has the advantage in 2 of the 5 that you list. Dayton has the advantage in 2, a lot closer than you think in one of them(based on the A10 tourney). Tiebreaker to me is the Geographic footprint, VCU not being a duplicate market while Dayton is. I didn't realize specifically how small Dayton's market is. If you say you have to consider the surrounding, we have that surrounding already between Butler and Xavier.

I have a feeling institutional fit counts alot more than the others.

(03-23-2013 05:53 PM)Title Wrote:  So your criteria for admittance are:

A. OOC W/L record regardless of SOS
B. Poor in-conference performance.
C. Disregard for the one direct way to contribute to the league's income.

Alrighty then

No, it would be: Infrastructure & Market and Quality of Program. Our only dispute is how you measure quality of program. You're going with a small sample size. I'm looking at what's statistically likely to be repeated. And you're also ignoring a couple other factors we've been over before.

Based on your criteria, a new conference formed in 2005 would have taken St. Joseph's over Villanova.

(03-23-2013 10:02 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  

(03-23-2013 10:01 PM)stever20 Wrote:  SLU I think is in period.

Now-
Fan support- Dayton vs VCU- probably ad Dayton, but a LOT closer than you think
Institutional fit- ad Dayton
on court- ad VCU
Media market- Richmond 57 Dayton 63- ad VCU http://www.tvb.org/media/file/TVB_Market...Ranks2.pdf
Geographic footprint- both fit, but VCU isn't a duplicate market in the way Dayton is.

So VCU has the advantage in 2 of the 5 that you list. Dayton has the advantage in 2, a lot closer than you think in one of them(based on the A10 tourney). Tiebreaker to me is the Geographic footprint, VCU not being a duplicate market while Dayton is. I didn't realize specifically how small Dayton's market is. If you say you have to consider the surrounding, we have that surrounding already between Butler and Xavier.

I have a feeling institutional fit counts alot more than the others.

I think on court performance is the #1 driver quite frankly.

(03-23-2013 10:18 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-23-2013 10:02 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  

(03-23-2013 10:01 PM)stever20 Wrote:  SLU I think is in period.

Now-
Fan support- Dayton vs VCU- probably ad Dayton, but a LOT closer than you think
Institutional fit- ad Dayton
on court- ad VCU
Media market- Richmond 57 Dayton 63- ad VCU http://www.tvb.org/media/file/TVB_Market...Ranks2.pdf
Geographic footprint- both fit, but VCU isn't a duplicate market in the way Dayton is.

So VCU has the advantage in 2 of the 5 that you list. Dayton has the advantage in 2, a lot closer than you think in one of them(based on the A10 tourney). Tiebreaker to me is the Geographic footprint, VCU not being a duplicate market while Dayton is. I didn't realize specifically how small Dayton's market is. If you say you have to consider the surrounding, we have that surrounding already between Butler and Xavier.

I have a feeling institutional fit counts alot more than the others.

I think on court performance is the #1 driver quite frankly.

If it was then Gonzaga would be in.

He wants web hits and you are giving it to him

(03-23-2013 10:18 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I didn't realize specifically how small Dayton's market is. If you say you have to consider the surrounding, we have that surrounding already between Butler and Xavier.

It's not small, they just lumped almost everything between Cincy and Dayton in Cincy's DMA. (Springboro is like 40 miles from Cincy and 14 miles from Dayton. And it's in the Cincy DMA).

This summer, the DMA's will merge anyway. But when it does merge, Xavier's ability to carry the entire market by themselves takes a hit.

If you had both Dayton and Xavier, you'd have the purality of fans in the market. It would be like taking Stanford and Cal, having 2/3 of the fans in the Bay Area market instead of taking Cal and leaving 2/3 of the market not interested in your conference.

Gonzaga is frankly the most overrated program out there. They have in this 15 year period all of 5 sweet 16's even though they've had 3 more sweet 16 seeds that they lost like this year.

If you use tourament bids as the measuring stick, yes, they are a top 6 conference right now. My measuring stick is tournament performance and next year I would rank them behind the BCS-5, new Big East, old Big East and even the A10. While the SEC and ACC had down years, they still have schools that can easily make it to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 while the MWC have never been to that level.
[/quote]


Based on bids the Metro, AMC, American 12 or whatever is decided had as many bids as the ACC and more than the SEC. Looking at the top 5-6 conferences, the Metro is in the conversation. This year the Metro had 4 bids without the help of Uconn. Next year could easily have 5 bids. Cincy, Temple, Uconn, Memphis, and Louisville(one last year). Teams in the conference have won 7 national championships and been to 27 final fours. Maybe we should name the conference Big American Metro, or for short BAM!! Mother F*****s

(03-23-2013 10:45 PM)Piratelife4me Wrote:  If you use tourament bids as the measuring stick, yes, they are a top 6 conference right now. My measuring stick is tournament performance and next year I would rank them behind the BCS-5, new Big East, old Big East and even the A10. While the SEC and ACC had down years, they still have schools that can easily make it to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 while the MWC have never been to that level.

Based on bids the Metro, AMC, American 12 or whatever is decided had as many bids as the ACC and more than the SEC. Looking at the top 5-6 conferences, the Metro is in the conversation. This year the Metro had 4 bids without the help of Uconn. Next year could easily have 5 bids. Cincy, Temple, Uconn, Memphis, and Louisville(one last year). Teams in the conference have won 7 national championships and been to 27 final fours. Maybe we should name the conference Big American Metro, or for short BAM!! Mother F*****s
[/quote]

Think you are being a smidge disingenuous with Louisville. Also even with that- the Metro(I hope that's your name)- would have been behind the ACC(with all their new teams coming in- Pitt, Syracuse, ND all making the tourney this year).

Based on bids the Metro, AMC, American 12 or whatever is decided had as many bids as the ACC and more than the SEC. Looking at the top 5-6 conferences, the Metro is in the conversation. This year the Metro had 4 bids without the help of Uconn. Next year could easily have 5 bids. Cincy, Temple, Uconn, Memphis, and Louisville(one last year). Teams in the conference have won 7 national championships and been to 27 final fours. Maybe we should name the conference Big American Metro, or for short BAM!! Mother F*****s
[/quote]

Think you are being a smidge disingenuous with Louisville. Also even with that- the Metro(I hope that's your name)- would have been behind the ACC(with all their new teams coming in- Pitt, Syracuse, ND all making the tourney this year).
[/quote]

Ur correct, the ACC was tough, but now with some of the better former big east teams in the league they will be perennially the best conference each year, with some contention form the Big 10. Pac 10 is strait. But outside of those I believe the NBE, Metro, A10 (what was, currently not looking good for the future of the league with losses of Xavier, butler, St. Louis, charlotte and maybe more to come) could all be fighting for the fourth best. SEC and Big 12 is always top heavy. I feel good about Metro and NBE making some noise in the tourney even with all defections and turnarounds. Ill also put it this way, if ECU ever makes the tourney I will wan to take our chances against teams form the mountain west.

(03-23-2013 10:45 PM)Piratelife4me Wrote:  If you use tourament bids as the measuring stick, yes, they are a top 6 conference right now. My measuring stick is tournament performance and next year I would rank them behind the BCS-5, new Big East, old Big East and even the A10. While the SEC and ACC had down years, they still have schools that can easily make it to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 while the MWC have never been to that level.

Quote:Based on bids the Metro, AMC, American 12 or whatever is decided had as many bids as the ACC and more than the SEC. Looking at the top 5-6 conferences, the Metro is in the conversation. This year the Metro had 4 bids without the help of Uconn. Next year could easily have 5 bids. Cincy, Temple, Uconn, Memphis, and Louisville(one last year). Teams in the conference have won 7 national championships and been to 27 final fours. Maybe we should name the conference Big American Metro, or for short BAM!! Mother F*****s

Evaluating conferences based on bids is one way to look at it, but if you're going to use the tournament as your measuring stick, you have to go all the way and then add in tournament wins. Except for UConn, this group doe not stack up well in this regard in the past decade.

And it makes no sense to evaluate a conference based on NC's that were won 25 years ago or 50 years ago as well as Final fours from the same eras. As for Louisville, they are irrelevant to the future of this conference.

So here's really my point about the NCAA Tournament performance... who had the better performance this season, VCU or Saint Louis?

What we've been posting here in these threads about performance, for 2013, we'd say:
VCU (1 bid, 1 win)
SLU (1 bid, 1 win)

SLU beat a 13 seed and lost to a 12 seed (by 17 points).
VCU beat a 12 seed and lost to a team that was ranked #1 in the country earlier this season and was probably the worst possible opponent for them to face.

Saying SLU performed as well as VCU this year is ridiculous. VCU played to their seed, and SLU choked.

(03-24-2013 02:04 PM)JPSchmack Wrote:  So here's really my point about the NCAA Tournament performance... who had the better performance this season, VCU or Saint Louis?

What we've been posting here in these threads about performance, for 2013, we'd say:
VCU (1 bid, 1 win)
SLU (1 bid, 1 win)

SLU beat a 13 seed and lost to a 12 seed (by 17 points).
VCU beat a 12 seed and lost to a team that was ranked #1 in the country earlier this season and was probably the worst possible opponent for them to face.

Saying SLU performed as well as VCU this year is ridiculous. VCU played to their seed, and SLU choked.

Are you dizzy with all that spin? That 12 seed SLU lost to is considered the worst seeded team in the tournament. Everyone is saying they should be a 8 seed seeing how they won the Pac-12 tournament. Also you are playing up UM. They are a 4 seed. Were they once ranked 1st? Sure, then they lost a bunch and everyone agreed they weren't the best team in the country. UK was also once ranked in the top 3.

Somehow getting blown out by 35 is better than losing by 17.

(03-24-2013 02:13 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Are you dizzy with all that spin? That 12 seed SLU lost to is considered the worst seeded team in the tournament. Everyone is saying they should be a 8 seed seeing how they won the Pac-12 tournament. Also you are playing up UM. They are a 4 seed. Were they once ranked 1st? Sure, then they lost a bunch and everyone agreed they weren't the best team in the country. UK was also once ranked in the top 3.

Somehow getting blown out by 35 is better than losing by 17.

And somehow 25 (3 possessions more than SLU's 17 pt loss) is actually 35! Okay, so Oregon is really an 8 seed and not a 12. The point still stands...

(03-24-2013 02:35 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(03-24-2013 02:13 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Are you dizzy with all that spin? That 12 seed SLU lost to is considered the worst seeded team in the tournament. Everyone is saying they should be a 8 seed seeing how they won the Pac-12 tournament. Also you are playing up UM. They are a 4 seed. Were they once ranked 1st? Sure, then they lost a bunch and everyone agreed they weren't the best team in the country. UK was also once ranked in the top 3.

Somehow getting blown out by 35 is better than losing by 17.

And somehow 25 (3 possessions more than SLU's 17 pt loss) is actually 35! Okay, so Oregon is really an 8 seed and not a 12. The point still stands...

I'm sorry 25.

How does losing by 17 mean you did worse than a team who lost by 25? Oregon is a legit team, just like UM is. I don't see why you can't say that Oregon was just as much of a miss match for SLU as UM was for VCU.

(03-24-2013 02:43 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  I'm sorry 25.

How does losing by 17 mean you did worse than a team who lost by 25? Oregon is a legit team, just like UM is. I don't see why you can't say that Oregon was just as much of a miss match for SLU as UM was for VCU.

I don't think it's a STRONG point in the sense that it's not worth arguing over. Both teams had a great year, and both teams lost. I understand what Schmack was saying, though, and I don't think an 8 point difference is as big as the seeding spread. Like I said though, I don't really have a dog in the fight as the W is really the only thing that matters.

How is there a thread relating to VCU's qualifications vs. other teams with 400 posts, and this tired argument STILL spills into every other thread?