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Quote:When people debate the 2nd Amendment issue, there are always points made relating to "self-protection". That is a red herring. My point is that the 2nd Amendment exist because our Founding Fathers wanted to make sure American citizens had the arms needed in order to overthrow our government. If the weapons citizens possess right now are inadequate to do that (as it seems you suggest), then we ought to be expanding application of the 2nd Amendment, rather than limiting the same.

FINALLY!!!.

That's been my point all along, if you really believe that the ability to overthrow our government is key, then the fact that there is an ATF at all should be in question. :iagree:

(03-12-2013 04:43 PM)Kimbosucks Wrote:  It worked in BOTH Red Dawn moves! Hollywood doesn't lie.

I am not a gun person but I teach in a part of Michigan that almost every kind hunts and every kid has a gun. Many of their parents think they live in the south and have Rebel flags. I am fine with gun ownership but the stats are that the most likely people to the get hurt in a house with guns are people living in that household. I have no answers and I there seems to be very few people in the middle like I am. Both sides seem extreme. One side wants assault rifles to "protect" themselves and the other side only wants the government to have weapons like Singapore. Singapore has little gun violence but also has very limited freedoms overall. This seems like the abortion issue with bullets.

Do you have a pool? Swim in a neighbor's during the summer? That pool is more likely to claim the life of a child than any firearm. With firearms the responsible owner must keep untrained hands away, and/or make it so they cannot fire it. But just like with everything else in life accidents happen, mistakes are made, and Murphy makes himself known.

The phone rings and you go inside while junior makes a dive in too shallow of water, knocks himself unconscious and drowns with out you hearing a thing. In a hurry to leave and you don't re lock/latch the safe or secure the cable and junior gets curious. Take your eyes of the road to change the station and somebody turns left in front of you.

(03-14-2013 10:38 AM)Tommyboy Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 04:43 PM)Kimbosucks Wrote:  It worked in BOTH Red Dawn moves! Hollywood doesn't lie.

I am not a gun person but I teach in a part of Michigan that almost every kind hunts and every kid has a gun. Many of their parents think they live in the south and have Rebel flags. I am fine with gun ownership but the stats are that the most likely people to the get hurt in a house with guns are people living in that household. I have no answers and I there seems to be very few people in the middle like I am. Both sides seem extreme. One side wants assault rifles to "protect" themselves and the other side only wants the government to have weapons like Singapore. Singapore has little gun violence but also has very limited freedoms overall. This seems like the abortion issue with bullets.

Do you have a pool? Swim in a neighbor's during the summer? That pool is more likely to claim the life of a child than any firearm. With firearms the responsible owner must keep untrained hands away, and/or make it so they cannot fire it. But just like with everything else in life accidents happen, mistakes are made, and Murphy makes himself known.

The phone rings and you go inside while junior makes a dive in too shallow of water, knocks himself unconscious and drowns with out you hearing a thing. In a hurry to leave and you don't re lock/latch the safe or secure the cable and junior gets curious. Take your eyes of the road to change the station and somebody turns left in front of you.

How many pools have been carried out to concentrations of people and used to conduct mass slayings in the last ten years?

I think we should get a grip on the hyperbole here.

The founding fathers were IN rebellion, that was their mindset. They were also much closer to a cultural memory when the norm was, the King routinely sent his troops into the village, they stole your crop, raped your wife, and carried away your oldest daughter into servitude. In that environment, it is only natural they would be wary. But they did put the amendment in terms of a militia. When I think militia, I think organization, government organization, similar to our National Guard. I don't think of well-armed paranoid individuals operating on their own direction.

Be that as it may, it seems pretty obvious the modern situation is much different. Some may not like their president or what they see as an overgrown government. That is much different than the Kings Guard routinely bashing in your door.

(03-14-2013 11:21 AM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

(03-14-2013 10:38 AM)Tommyboy Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 04:43 PM)Kimbosucks Wrote:  It worked in BOTH Red Dawn moves! Hollywood doesn't lie.

I am not a gun person but I teach in a part of Michigan that almost every kind hunts and every kid has a gun. Many of their parents think they live in the south and have Rebel flags. I am fine with gun ownership but the stats are that the most likely people to the get hurt in a house with guns are people living in that household. I have no answers and I there seems to be very few people in the middle like I am. Both sides seem extreme. One side wants assault rifles to "protect" themselves and the other side only wants the government to have weapons like Singapore. Singapore has little gun violence but also has very limited freedoms overall. This seems like the abortion issue with bullets.

Do you have a pool? Swim in a neighbor's during the summer? That pool is more likely to claim the life of a child than any firearm. With firearms the responsible owner must keep untrained hands away, and/or make it so they cannot fire it. But just like with everything else in life accidents happen, mistakes are made, and Murphy makes himself known.

The phone rings and you go inside while junior makes a dive in too shallow of water, knocks himself unconscious and drowns with out you hearing a thing. In a hurry to leave and you don't re lock/latch the safe or secure the cable and junior gets curious. Take your eyes of the road to change the station and somebody turns left in front of you.

How many pools have been carried out to concentrations of people and used to conduct mass slayings in the last ten years?

My reply was to the bolded portion of Kimbo's post, pertaining to the relative safety of guns in the home, and should not in any way be construed as an example of the need for pool control.

Interesting, is there a stat for people who have pools compared to people that own guns, taking into account which households have both? Not sure about that strawman of "pools being as prone to causing deaths at home as guns", that whole premise was about people who own guns for protection, and the stats do bear out that more accidents than protective incidents happen with guns.

Not sure how many people install pools as moats to protect themselves. You?

Some stats guy looked at total pools in the country vs pool related accidental deaths and total guns in the country vs gun related accidental deaths. Bottom line: a pool in the yard is more likely to take a life than a gun in the house.

I doubt that very much. link?

It might have been a very narrowly constructed comparison.

Like, how many gun accidents occurred in suburban backyards near the pool, compared to pool accidents.

Or, comparing gun injuries among pool owners.

Maybe the best protection is to be a pool owner?

Having had both, I'll go with the pool.

(03-15-2013 07:33 AM)Dirty Ernie Wrote:  I doubt that very much. link?

It might have been a very narrowly constructed comparison.

Like, how many gun accidents occurred in suburban backyards near the pool, compared to pool accidents.

Or, comparing gun injuries among pool owners.

Maybe the best protection is to be a pool owner?

Here you go

This was done by Steven Levitt the author of Freakonomics

Key piece:

Quote:In 1997 alone (the last year for which data are available), 742 children under the age of 10 drowned in the United States last year alone. Approximately 550 of those drownings — about 75 percent of the total — occurred in residential swimming pools. According to the most recent statistics, there are about six million residential pools, meaning that one young child drowns annually for every 11,000 pools.

About 175 children under the age of 10 died in 1998 as a result of guns. About two-thirds of those deaths were homicides. There are an estimated 200 million guns in the United States. Doing the math, there is roughly one child killed by guns for every one million guns.

It seems I was wrong, he includes murder not just accidental deaths.

(03-15-2013 10:36 AM)Tommyboy Wrote:  

(03-15-2013 07:33 AM)Dirty Ernie Wrote:  I doubt that very much. link?

It might have been a very narrowly constructed comparison.

Like, how many gun accidents occurred in suburban backyards near the pool, compared to pool accidents.

Or, comparing gun injuries among pool owners.

Maybe the best protection is to be a pool owner?

Here you go

This was done by Steven Levitt the author of Freakonomics

Key piece:

Quote:In 1997 alone (the last year for which data are available), 742 children under the age of 10 drowned in the United States last year alone. Approximately 550 of those drownings — about 75 percent of the total — occurred in residential swimming pools. According to the most recent statistics, there are about six million residential pools, meaning that one young child drowns annually for every 11,000 pools.

About 175 children under the age of 10 died in 1998 as a result of guns. About two-thirds of those deaths were homicides. There are an estimated 200 million guns in the United States. Doing the math, there is roughly one child killed by guns for every one million guns.

It seems I was wrong, he includes murder not just accidental deaths.

Cold, hard facts.

I am curious about the death rate of children in automobile accidents as well.

I'm wondering how many children are harmed or killed by their parents.

Anyone for backgroud checks or licensure requirements for procreation?

(03-15-2013 11:41 AM)ESSSS Wrote:  I'm wondering how many children are harmed or killed by their parents.

Anyone for backgroud checks or licensure requirements for procreation?

Yes please.

Thanks for the link.

I had missed the idea the comparison only applied to deaths of children under 10.

According to CDC data:

3533 Total pool deaths annual, average 2005-2009

Firearms: 31,672
Vehicles: 33,687
Poisoning: 42,917
Total deaths from misc injuries: 180,116

The poisoning one surprised me. Did you know you can die from a nutmeg overdose?

(03-15-2013 01:09 PM)Dirty Ernie Wrote:  According to CDC data:

3533 Total pool deaths annual, average 2005-2009

Firearms: 31,672
Vehicles: 33,687
Poisoning: 42,917
Total deaths from misc injuries: 180,116

The poisoning one surprised me. Did you know you can die from a nutmeg overdose?

Apparently you can overdose on almost anything. It's just extremely hard to do for most things.

(03-14-2013 11:21 AM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

(03-14-2013 10:38 AM)Tommyboy Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 04:43 PM)Kimbosucks Wrote:  It worked in BOTH Red Dawn moves! Hollywood doesn't lie.

I am not a gun person but I teach in a part of Michigan that almost every kind hunts and every kid has a gun. Many of their parents think they live in the south and have Rebel flags. I am fine with gun ownership but the stats are that the most likely people to the get hurt in a house with guns are people living in that household. I have no answers and I there seems to be very few people in the middle like I am. Both sides seem extreme. One side wants assault rifles to "protect" themselves and the other side only wants the government to have weapons like Singapore. Singapore has little gun violence but also has very limited freedoms overall. This seems like the abortion issue with bullets.

Do you have a pool? Swim in a neighbor's during the summer? That pool is more likely to claim the life of a child than any firearm. With firearms the responsible owner must keep untrained hands away, and/or make it so they cannot fire it. But just like with everything else in life accidents happen, mistakes are made, and Murphy makes himself known.

The phone rings and you go inside while junior makes a dive in too shallow of water, knocks himself unconscious and drowns with out you hearing a thing. In a hurry to leave and you don't re lock/latch the safe or secure the cable and junior gets curious. Take your eyes of the road to change the station and somebody turns left in front of you.

How many pools have been carried out to concentrations of people and used to conduct mass slayings in the last ten years?

Isn't that why we invaded Iraq?

(03-14-2013 12:19 PM)Dirty Ernie Wrote:  I think we should get a grip on the hyperbole here.

The founding fathers were IN rebellion, that was their mindset. They were also much closer to a cultural memory when the norm was, the King routinely sent his troops into the village, they stole your crop, raped your wife, and carried away your oldest daughter into servitude. In that environment, it is only natural they would be wary. But they did put the amendment in terms of a militia. When I think militia, I think organization, government organization, similar to our National Guard. I don't think of well-armed paranoid individuals operating on their own direction.

Be that as it may, it seems pretty obvious the modern situation is much different. Some may not like their president or what they see as an overgrown government. That is much different than the Kings Guard routinely bashing in your door.

How many founding fathers drowned in swimming pools? Or overdosed on warm shrimp at the Winking Lizard?

(03-15-2013 01:08 AM)Tommyboy Wrote:  Some stats guy looked at total pools in the country vs pool related accidental deaths and total guns in the country vs gun related accidental deaths. Bottom line: a pool in the yard is more likely to take a life than a gun in the house.

Swim back to the shallow end T.

(03-15-2013 11:42 AM)ColinApocalypse Wrote:  

(03-15-2013 11:41 AM)ESSSS Wrote:  I'm wondering how many children are harmed or killed by their parents.

Anyone for backgroud checks or licensure requirements for procreation?

Yes please.

There sure is a lot of red tape in my home.