the NBA isn't basketball. If they played by the rules the rest of the world plays with- then maybe it'd be worth watching. Not this bullcrap iso and not allowed to play whatever defense you want.

(02-05-2013 12:44 PM)stever20 Wrote:  the NBA isn't basketball. If they played by the rules the rest of the world plays with- then maybe it'd be worth watching. Not this bullcrap iso and not allowed to play whatever defense you want.

ISO? do you even watch basketball? That's the typical response from people who only watch college basketball. NBA has amazing ball movement and great team defense. Try watching the Thunder, Rockets, Heat, Spurs, Knicks, Clippers (when CP3 is healthy), Nets, Celtics (even when rondo isn't healthy), Warriors (especially them) and Grizzlies (when Conley and Gasol are running their beautiful pick and roll). It's pretty obvious that you don't watch NBA games, although I do agree with you on the absurdity of the 3 second/illegal defense rule

thats 10 teams or 1/3 of the league.

(02-05-2013 01:23 PM)stever20 Wrote:  thats 10 teams or 1/3 of the league.

i didn't stop because the other teams don't pass. I'll keep going with Denver (high octane and super fun offense), Minnesota (when Love and Rubio are healthy), New Orleans (especially with Vasquez running the show and when Anderson is in), Pacers (as long as Granger continues to be hurt) and the Bulls (whether Rose is healthy or not), Cleveland scores a lot and is very fun to watch when Irving is on the floor with Thompson and Waiters. So half the league contains teams with offenses that are enjoyable to watch.

Then there's the Pistons, a team that will be fun to watch as Knight, Drummond and Monroe grow together. If jrue Holliday had a healthy Bynum, they'd form an incredibly fun duo. I also didn't mention the Lakers, who can really put up points when healthy - Look at Kobe's assists totals lately.

I say all this not to get into a shouting match (which we should probably move to its own thread), but to show you just how fun the NBA is. I really think you're missing out on some fun basketball, especially when the playoffs roll around and you have teams like the Grizzlies and their suffocating D, going up against the Warriors and their Curry-led, high flying offense (a lineup with Bogut, Lee, Barnes, Thompson and Curry is so freakin fun it's scary).

my bigger problem is with how the game is reffed. It's not reffed like any other basketball in the world, and I have a problem with that.

(02-05-2013 02:20 PM)stever20 Wrote:  my bigger problem is with how the game is reffed. It's not reffed like any other basketball in the world, and I have a problem with that.

yeah the game is called way too close. I will say that the ubiquity of the charging call began with college, specifically Coach K and Battier. You can blame those two for popularizing it.

As for how the game is reffed in the rest of the world, i don't really know what you mean, as I don't watch international basketball.

I don't like how travels aren't travels in the NBA- and I'm the other way- they don't call enough fouls when contact is made. Kind of like hockey, when they called all the obstruction finally, it opened the game way up.

Also like we said- get the silly illegal defense out of there. If a team wants to play a zone, go for it.

(02-05-2013 02:42 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't like how travels aren't travels in the NBA- and I'm the other way- they don't call enough fouls when contact is made. Kind of like hockey, when they called all the obstruction finally, it opened the game way up.

Also like we said- get the silly illegal defense out of there. If a team wants to play a zone, go for it.

I never really understood the traveling argument. A guy dribbles then takes two steps. But I guess it doesn't really matter.

The one thing I'm amazed you said, is that they don't call enough fouls. If they blew the whistles even more than they already do, the game would be so slow and boring. I have to laugh a little because my friend is a big Jordan fan and (incorrectly IMO) views the 90's as the NBA's glory days, when you could beat the crap out of players and not get a whistle. He thinks there are way too many whistles blown today. To each his own I guess

(02-05-2013 03:22 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(02-05-2013 02:42 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't like how travels aren't travels in the NBA- and I'm the other way- they don't call enough fouls when contact is made. Kind of like hockey, when they called all the obstruction finally, it opened the game way up.

Also like we said- get the silly illegal defense out of there. If a team wants to play a zone, go for it.

I never really understood the traveling argument. A guy dribbles then takes two steps. But I guess it doesn't really matter.

The one thing I'm amazed you said, is that they don't call enough fouls. If they blew the whistles even more than they already do, the game would be so slow and boring. I have to laugh a little because my friend is a big Jordan fan and (incorrectly IMO) views the 90's as the NBA's glory days, when you could beat the crap out of players and not get a whistle. He thinks there are way too many whistles blown today. To each his own I guess

it would take a bit of an adjustment, but after that period- you would see a totally different game.

(02-05-2013 03:56 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-05-2013 03:22 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(02-05-2013 02:42 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't like how travels aren't travels in the NBA- and I'm the other way- they don't call enough fouls when contact is made. Kind of like hockey, when they called all the obstruction finally, it opened the game way up.

Also like we said- get the silly illegal defense out of there. If a team wants to play a zone, go for it.

I never really understood the traveling argument. A guy dribbles then takes two steps. But I guess it doesn't really matter.

The one thing I'm amazed you said, is that they don't call enough fouls. If they blew the whistles even more than they already do, the game would be so slow and boring. I have to laugh a little because my friend is a big Jordan fan and (incorrectly IMO) views the 90's as the NBA's glory days, when you could beat the crap out of players and not get a whistle. He thinks there are way too many whistles blown today. To each his own I guess

it would take a bit of an adjustment, but after that period- you would see a totally different game.

more fouls being called? believe me, that's not an adjustment i'd want to see. James Harden already attempts 10 free throws per game. Can you imagine how many he'd shoot if the game were called closer? It would add an extra 15 minutes to each game

EyeOnBaseball Report: Felix Hernandez on verge of seven-year, $175 million extension with Mariners cbsprt.co/TQopHp via @cbssports

guess we know who the King of Seattle is now.... *at least until the Kings get there :)

(02-05-2013 12:21 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  LOL sorry, I had to respond to the last comment first. You really think that idiot Epstein will get the Cubs over the top? He was the one who left the Sox in disarray with the contracts he gave to Lackey, Crawford, Beckett, Daisuke and Gonzalez, as well as trading Lowrie for Melancon. I'll give Epstein his due for the great moves he made before 2009, but it's basically been downhill since. And now he's restarted the trend in Chicago with the absurd contract to Edwin Jackson, whose ERA this year will probably jump to nearly 4.50.

OK, I'll play: your statement about the Red Sox kind of contradicts the question you asked in the beginning. Yes, I do believe Epstein will get the Cubs over the top finally, just as he did get Boston over the top 2 times finally.

Now, what happens after he does it is anyones' guess. Perhaps he'll want to move on to the next sad team on the list. (Maybe the Mariners or Pirates?)
Epstein's "story" is kind of similar to what John Schuerholz' was with the Royals when he left. You could argue he was responsible not only for building the Royals up to a World Series winner, but also for saddling them with a bunch of bad contracts and a long downward spiral when he left for the Braves in 1990. As a Braves fan, Schuerholz did his job- he put together a World Series wiining team and several great years for a franchise that was among the saddest in modern baseball- the Braves. Now,the end-game for him in Atlanta (he's still the Braves' President while Fran Wren is GM) was not as severely bad as wehen he left KC, but still, I'm satisfied with his tenure and abilities. BTW his book is a great read- he admits his mistakes over the years, the biggest one beinbg mutually held by he and Tom Glavine that he never should have let him go to the Mets).

So, yeah, Epstein will be the man to get the Cubs to the World Series somehow over the next several years, I believe. It may not look pretty to you while he's doing it, but he'll get them there.

(02-05-2013 12:21 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  Also, how can you hate on basketball? Baseball will always be the sport I learned about first, but NBA is definitely more fun to watch on a nightly basis. Football I'll agree with you on

When I was younger, I remember watching the Lakers/celtic and Celtic/Lakers seemingly every year in the NBA finals. I remember the HAwks always losing in the second round no matter how good they were, and our franchise bottomed out a number of times in the intervening years. While I did watch and was entertained by Jordan and the originalk Detroit champion teams, NBA game is more or less boring to me these days, and I find the players supremely annoying, childish and unrealatable. I may watch a part of a game here and there, but I pretty much care less about it these days.

I watched about 1 minute of the Super Bowl at the end, did not go to a viewing party, and couldn't really tell you who has been good or won it all in the NFL the last several years beyond that New England I believe has been decent for a while.

I just can't relate to today's football players the way I used to. After seeing so many epic NFL games on TV over the years, maybe I just ram out of RAM for new ones. I remeber the Classics like the "Kellen Winslow (SR) AFC Champ game" San Diego against Miami, the Fog Bowl, the Cincinnati vs San Diego game with Cris Collinsworth, the Raiders Just win, baby wild card super bowl with Lyle Alzado saying he didn't care if he died from steroids because "it was worth it" (later he made a commercial shortly before he died saying "Steroids are not worth it- I don't want to die."), The Bills' 4 Super Bowls, The 'Fridge and the Bears in their first Super Bowl in '84 with Jim McMahon, the Failcons losing to the Cowboys in the last two minutes back in the early 80's, and some more.

Other than seeing if the Texans will ever realize the gem of a threat they have in James Casey (Either use him or let him go somewhere else) I don't relate to any cuurent NFL players.

But I can always relate to a guy like Kris Medlin, or Brian McCann in baseball. I can relate to the managers, I can relate to the Umpires, I can relate to the fans. I just prefer baseball by far these days, pro and college.

(02-07-2013 02:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  EyeOnBaseball Report: Felix Hernandez on verge of seven-year, $175 million extension with Mariners cbsprt.co/TQopHp via @cbssports

guess we know who the King of Seattle is now.... *at least until the Kings get there :)

Thanks for getting this thread back on topic, stever.

I'd love to see Seattle keep King Felix. If only to keep him away from the Yankees. But I'd also enjoy watching Seattle get over the hump and getting to the Wold Series with him in their lineup someday soon.

Whither Michael Borne? Do ya'll have any ideas on where he'll land at this point? I guess it will take a Spring Training injury for him to be able to get what he wants from someone, like Fielder last year with Detroit.

Just once I'd like to see Boras get screwed royally and take him down a notch or two. (Actually, I'd like to see that happen a bunch of times!)

(02-07-2013 04:12 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(02-07-2013 02:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  EyeOnBaseball Report: Felix Hernandez on verge of seven-year, $175 million extension with Mariners cbsprt.co/TQopHp via @cbssports

guess we know who the King of Seattle is now.... *at least until the Kings get there :)

Thanks for getting this thread back on topic, stever.

I'd love to see Seattle keep King Felix. If only to keep him away from the Yankees. But I'd also enjoy watching Seattle get over the hump and getting to the Wold Series with him in their lineup someday soon.

Whither Michael Borne? Do ya'll have any ideas on where he'll land at this point? I guess it will take a Spring Training injury for him to be able to get what he wants from someone, like Fielder last year with Detroit.

Just once I'd like to see Boras get screwed royally and take him down a notch or two. (Actually, I'd like to see that happen a bunch of times!)

Agreed, good to see the Mariners making a real push. They're a team with a lot of money and could not afford to let Felix go, unless they were going to trade him for a giant haul of prospects. The contract doesn't come without risk, but what long term contract does?

As for Bourne, who knows? It's going to be extremely interesting to see where that piece falls.

And on your Boras point, didn't that happen to Ryan Madson last year? The Reds finally gave him a one year deal, and then he proceeded to blow out his elbow. I think Boras lost that one

[/quote]

I just can't relate to today's football players the way I used to. After seeing so many epic NFL games on TV over the years, maybe I just ram out of RAM for new ones. I remeber the Classics like the "Kellen Winslow (SR) AFC Champ game" San Diego against Miami, the Fog Bowl, the Cincinnati vs San Diego game with Cris Collinsworth, the Raiders Just win, baby wild card super bowl with Lyle Alzado saying he didn't care if he died from steroids because "it was worth it" (later he made a commercial shortly before he died saying "Steroids are not worth it- I don't want to die."), The Bills' 4 Super Bowls, The 'Fridge and the Bears in their first Super Bowl in '84 with Jim McMahon, the Failcons losing to the Cowboys in the last two minutes back in the early 80's, and some more.

Other than seeing if the Texans will ever realize the gem of a threat they have in James Casey (Either use him or let him go somewhere else) I don't relate to any cuurent NFL players.

But I can always relate to a guy like Kris Medlin, or Brian McCann in baseball. I can relate to the managers, I can relate to the Umpires, I can relate to the fans. I just prefer baseball by far these days, pro and college.
[/quote]

i disgree with most of that, but completely see where you're coming from and respect that viewpoint. Sucks you can't enjoy basketball anymore, but we both enjoy baseball so there's that

All of that being said, I still don't believe in Epstein. Rebuilding the Cubs will be much more difficult than what he did with the Sox. When Lucchino appointed him as GM, the Sox were coming off a season in which they went 93-69 and finished 2nd in the East to the Yankees. I'm not saying he didn't add some really great pieces to the 2004 team, but they already had Pedro, Lowe, Varitek, Nixon, Manny, Damon and Wakefield. The Cubs OTOH, were 71-91 in 2011 and 61-101 in 2012. Right now their best hitter is Alfonso Soriano and their 2nd best hitter is Starlin Castro. Those two players walked a combined 80 times last year. Their staff ace is Jeff Samardzjia and #2 is Garza. After analyzing their entire team, you have to imagine that even with the addition of Jackson, they're looking at a last place finish in the central with no more than 72 wins. My point here is that this is a very different situation than the Sox were in, who already had two hall of famers on their roster. The Cubs don't have anyone I'd even consider to be an all star

(02-07-2013 06:04 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  All of that being said, I still don't believe in Epstein. Rebuilding the Cubs will be much more difficult than what he did with the Sox. When Lucchino appointed him as GM, the Sox were coming off a season in which they went 93-69 and finished 2nd in the East to the Yankees. I'm not saying he didn't add some really great pieces to the 2004 team, but they already had Pedro, Lowe, Varitek, Nixon, Manny, Damon and Wakefield. The Cubs OTOH, were 71-91 in 2011 and 61-101 in 2012. Right now their best hitter is Alfonso Soriano and their 2nd best hitter is Starlin Castro. Those two players walked a combined 80 times last year. Their staff ace is Jeff Samardzjia and #2 is Garza. After analyzing their entire team, you have to imagine that even with the addition of Jackson, they're looking at a last place finish in the central with no more than 72 wins. My point here is that this is a very different situation than the Sox were in, who already had two hall of famers on their roster. The Cubs don't have anyone I'd even consider to be an all star

I agree with the statement that rebuilding the Cubs will be much more difficult than the Red Sox. I believe Epstein is the kind of guy who relishes that kind of a challenge, kind of like Beane staying in Oakland to get things working there instead of jumping to the Red Sox when he supposedly had the chance.

I'm not so hung up on Jackson as you seem to be. I think the Cubs are still in transitional/stabilizing stage. He has to spend some now to ostensibly give the fans something to watch, maybe he believes Jackson will fill that purpose for a few years.

As for all-stars, what is your opinion of Rizzo? Do you see anyone the Cubs have in their minor league system that excites you?

The Cubs are definitely a mess. Might take him 5 years more to really get it going. Maybe coincides with their physical renovations to the stadium and surrounding areas.

The fun part of baseball is we'll get to see how all these things play out over time.

I'm looking forward to it.

2 footnotes, and thanks for engaging in a baseball discussion on these boards. Hope more folks than you and stever and me will join in the conversation.

1. Who do you have in the Giants system coming up that you like and we should be aware of?
2. How do you see the NL West battle going between you and the Dodgers, and what is your opinion of the JUpton trade from the AZ Diamondbacks perpective (as far as prospects they got and how they can/will utilize them in the future to help them try to overcome the Giants and Dodgers)?

I think one thing for Cubs and Epstein- the rules for drafting have changed. it'll be interesting to see if he can build for the future with that limitation...

(02-07-2013 06:50 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(02-07-2013 06:04 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  All of that being said, I still don't believe in Epstein. Rebuilding the Cubs will be much more difficult than what he did with the Sox. When Lucchino appointed him as GM, the Sox were coming off a season in which they went 93-69 and finished 2nd in the East to the Yankees. I'm not saying he didn't add some really great pieces to the 2004 team, but they already had Pedro, Lowe, Varitek, Nixon, Manny, Damon and Wakefield. The Cubs OTOH, were 71-91 in 2011 and 61-101 in 2012. Right now their best hitter is Alfonso Soriano and their 2nd best hitter is Starlin Castro. Those two players walked a combined 80 times last year. Their staff ace is Jeff Samardzjia and #2 is Garza. After analyzing their entire team, you have to imagine that even with the addition of Jackson, they're looking at a last place finish in the central with no more than 72 wins. My point here is that this is a very different situation than the Sox were in, who already had two hall of famers on their roster. The Cubs don't have anyone I'd even consider to be an all star

I agree with the statement that rebuilding the Cubs will be much more difficult than the Red Sox. I believe Epstein is the kind of guy who relishes that kind of a challenge, kind of like Beane staying in Oakland to get things working there instead of jumping to the Red Sox when he supposedly had the chance.

I'm not so hung up on Jackson as you seem to be. I think the Cubs are still in transitional/stabilizing stage. He has to spend some now to ostensibly give the fans something to watch, maybe he believes Jackson will fill that purpose for a few years.

As for all-stars, what is your opinion of Rizzo? Do you see anyone the Cubs have in their minor league system that excites you?

The Cubs are definitely a mess. Might take him 5 years more to really get it going. Maybe coincides with their physical renovations to the stadium and surrounding areas.

The fun part of baseball is we'll get to see how all these things play out over time.

I'm looking forward to it.

2 footnotes, and thanks for engaging in a baseball discussion on these boards. Hope more folks than you and stever and me will join in the conversation.

1. Who do you have in the Giants system coming up that you like and we should be aware of?
2. How do you see the NL West battle going between you and the Dodgers, and what is your opinion of the JUpton trade from the AZ Diamondbacks perpective (as far as prospects they got and how they can/will utilize them in the future to help them try to overcome the Giants and Dodgers)?

I think Rizzo has talent, no doubt about that, but I never liked his swing and I don't fully believe that he's any more than a .750 OPS guy. A good player, but hardly a star. And no, from what I've seen the Cubs don't exactly have a system that inspires much confidence.

Man, you have no idea how good it is to have some baseball fans back on the board. I remember back around 2003-2004 when the MLB board was a ton of fun. GDawgs (a braves fan) and I would constantly go back and forth in really fun exchanges. Good times, hopefully we can bring it back

(02-07-2013 07:04 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think one thing for Cubs and Epstein- the rules for drafting have changed. it'll be interesting to see if he can build for the future with that limitation...

good point. the slotting system is sure to have some kind of an effect. only time will tell whether it's good or bad for Theo