I think your problem with Wichita State people is that outside of Frank the Tank, every argument made for someone other than Wichita State, can be countered.

I love Xbus's referencing our 1/2 a season. We have won 108 games since Gregg Marshall took over. 11, 17, 25, 29, and 26. This year is panning out to be another 25+ win season. Include Mark Turgeon's last 4 seasons and we have gone 213-117 (65% Winning Percentage). We have averaged in the Mid 40's depending on which RPI you look at.

I haven't seen one comment by me or anyone stating we see us getting in. I wanted to know how we stacked up against those being considered. It started as a PM. It wasn't meant to offend your psyche in being compared to a public school in Kansas. Biased opinion or not, Wichita State would be a great school in the new conference if not for location and institutional fit. Frank is right, and I havent seen anyone question that.

For every knock on Wichita State, though, there is an equal knock on one of the other teams. What did Butler accomplish before its 2007-2011 run? They were in the NIT last year. VCU... Look at what they accomplished before Capel got there in 2002. They had a great 1/2 season (and would not have gotten in the tourney if not for a late season win over Wichita State) and hung a Final Four Banner. That alone is why they are in consideration. Creighton is located as remotely as Wichita State. Tough to get to? No. They have also never made it past Sweet Sixteen. When was the last at-large they received? 2001. And what have they done the past 5 years? One NCAA tournament. Xavier is in. A high major producer as evidenced by losing 5 starters and 80 percent of their scoring and not missing a beat. Bit wait, Wichita State lost 80% of its scoring and 6 of top 7 players but is now 17-2 with a road win over previously mentioned VCU and Creighton.

Wichita State has a proud fan base. But you will also find us big college basketball fans. I LOVED watching the Big East through the 90's. hated seeing them add football schools, and was ecstatic when the C7 announced it was splitting. But not because I thought we were destined to join. More so because I enjoy College Basketball, which is what the Big East was originally designed to be.

Most of the strongest arguments about adding Wichita State have been by fans of anoter school. We are not Kansas. Not even close to being Kansas. Don't want to be Kansas. We are Wichita State and we want to play basketball. We want to play with the best. We have invested a lot, and will continue to until we are at that level. Few can doubt how far we have come, or claim we have hit our ceiling.

I say if you're going to 14, take Duquesne and St. Bonaventure.

It bridges the East/West divide.

It currently gives the upper echelon conference wins so you get more bids (people make it sound like having teams that don't make the tournament is a bad thing. What matters is winning OOC games. If Bona and Duquesne go 10-4 OOC and 6-10 in conference every year, that's GOOD for you guys. You BE fans really don't want to see the "new guys" finishing 1-5, do you?).

It develops markets that will help later:
Duquesne in Pittsburgh (where the Penguins arena would make a central conference tourney location)
Bona in Buffalo/Rochester.
In the 15 years before the creation of the Big East and A-10, Bona and Syracuse were VERY similar. SU had 8 NCAA bids, 8 non-consolation wins, and Bona had 6 NCAA bids, 6 non-consolation wins. Part of the reason Syracuse gets sizable media coverage in Rochester and Buffalo is because of conference affiliation. SU got Big East recruits and a legendary coach built a basketball power. Not saying Bona's guaranteed to do the same, but when Bonaventure is (a) good or (b) playing marquee opponents, they DO get coverage in Buffalo and Rochester. Membership of the C7 would increase that greatly. (There would be columns in both papers about Bona "replacing Syracuse in the 'Big East' instantly). Bona already plays two Buffalo schools and has had neutral site games in Rochester for a decade; if they scheduled a conference game against one of GTown/St. John's/Nova in Rochester, it would blow up again with "Bona plays GTown/St. John's/Nova, why can't Syracuse?" stories).


And yes, I am a Bonaventure grad, so you can dismiss this as a serious option; but it is a valid point, if not a realistic outcome.

(01-22-2013 09:59 PM)JPSchmack Wrote:  There's really no reason to invite past the minimum number of what Fox will pay for... yet.

Adding teams later allows you to re-open negotiations (if you put that clause in your TV deal, which anyone is sure to do). Once the new money becomes the usual money, THEN you add two teams, renegotiate your TV deal with new markets and cash in.

That solves the problem of locking yourself into "who's good now." What would happen if [insert team here] lost their coach, the new coach swung and missed at recruits he probably wasn't going to get, had to scramble to fill his roster and the team went into the crapper? You'd be stuck with someone you picked more for recent success than historical competitiveness.

But if you take the no-brainers now and wait on the "second cut" list of teams, and see who goes Butler-style all over their now weaker conferences, you let THEM decide who's consistently good.

Xavier gets in because they've been to like 14 of the last 17 tourneys. If they're not in the A-10 (along with Temple), someone is probably going to step up and run that league like the Owls/Musketeers did. If it's VCU or Dayton in the A-10 and Wichita State pimpslapping a Creighton-less MVC, you add them later. If those conferences turn into parity central where EVERYONE'S taking a turn at the top... then you don't give someone else access.

So who is the 12th team in your mind if the top 4 are: Butler, VCU, Xavier and Creighton.

(01-22-2013 09:42 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  i have no problem with wichita. i think they would be a good add IF we were going to 14. (along with whichever school between vcu st louis and dayton isnt #12) i just think 14 is too many. at least at this time
plus if we went over 12, we'd run the risk that 5 years from now we'd still be talking about a BE split, only this time between the midwestern and northeastern schools!

Again who are the 5 ahead of them? I can see four but not 5

(01-22-2013 10:01 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  If we were going 14, I would think we would add VCU and Gonzaga along with the logical other 5 schools. Now if Gonzaga is too far, WSU would be a viable option, although I highly doubt the C7 presidents are even considering WSU. Funny how WSU is probably the most talked about school out of all the "candidates" on this board...

Gonzaga is too far. I don't think you have a clue how far away Spokane is. I live in Ca and its far from here.

(01-22-2013 10:28 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 10:01 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  If we were going 14, I would think we would add VCU and Gonzaga along with the logical other 5 schools. Now if Gonzaga is too far, WSU would be a viable option, although I highly doubt the C7 presidents are even considering WSU. Funny how WSU is probably the most talked about school out of all the "candidates" on this board...

Gonzaga is too far. I don't think you have a clue how far away Spokane is. I live in Ca and its far from here.

Sorry, I do have a clue, I've been to Spokane, lived in California as well. Gonzaga has made overtures to the C7 so atleast there is some interest. If they are willing to foot the travel to the other schools, then so be it. It's more of a travel burden on them then it is on the other schools and I think it's worth the extra travel as long as Gonzaga is willing.

(01-22-2013 10:20 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 09:59 PM)JPSchmack Wrote:  There's really no reason to invite past the minimum number of what Fox will pay for... yet.

Adding teams later allows you to re-open negotiations (if you put that clause in your TV deal, which anyone is sure to do). Once the new money becomes the usual money, THEN you add two teams, renegotiate your TV deal with new markets and cash in.

That solves the problem of locking yourself into "who's good now." What would happen if [insert team here] lost their coach, the new coach swung and missed at recruits he probably wasn't going to get, had to scramble to fill his roster and the team went into the crapper? You'd be stuck with someone you picked more for recent success than historical competitiveness.

But if you take the no-brainers now and wait on the "second cut" list of teams, and see who goes Butler-style all over their now weaker conferences, you let THEM decide who's consistently good.

Xavier gets in because they've been to like 14 of the last 17 tourneys. If they're not in the A-10 (along with Temple), someone is probably going to step up and run that league like the Owls/Musketeers did. If it's VCU or Dayton in the A-10 and Wichita State pimpslapping a Creighton-less MVC, you add them later. If those conferences turn into parity central where EVERYONE'S taking a turn at the top... then you don't give someone else access.

So who is the 12th team in your mind if the top 4 are: Butler, VCU, Xavier and Creighton.

I think the top four are Xavier, Butler, Dayton and Saint Louis. Creighton would be my 12th.

(01-22-2013 10:25 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 09:42 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  i have no problem with wichita. i think they would be a good add IF we were going to 14. (along with whichever school between vcu st louis and dayton isnt #12) i just think 14 is too many. at least at this time
plus if we went over 12, we'd run the risk that 5 years from now we'd still be talking about a BE split, only this time between the midwestern and northeastern schools!

Again who are the 5 ahead of them? I can see four but not 5

butler,xavier, creighton,vcu, dayton and stlouis.

(01-22-2013 10:38 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 10:28 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 10:01 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  If we were going 14, I would think we would add VCU and Gonzaga along with the logical other 5 schools. Now if Gonzaga is too far, WSU would be a viable option, although I highly doubt the C7 presidents are even considering WSU. Funny how WSU is probably the most talked about school out of all the "candidates" on this board...

Gonzaga is too far. I don't think you have a clue how far away Spokane is. I live in Ca and its far from here.

Sorry, I do have a clue, I've been to Spokane, lived in California as well. Gonzaga has made overtures to the C7 so atleast there is some interest. If they are willing to foot the travel to the other schools, then so be it. It's more of a travel burden on them then it is on the other schools and I think it's worth the extra travel as long as Gonzaga is willing.

Okay I may be biased because I am a parent for a minor sports athlete but adding Gonzaga and the travel would put an unneccesay burden on the athletes. Gonzaga to Creighton would be a brutal travel pair. I know teams struggled with St Louis to Butler last year.

I think fans underestimate the travel both in terms of scholastic impact and competitive burden.

(01-22-2013 11:10 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 10:25 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 09:42 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  i have no problem with wichita. i think they would be a good add IF we were going to 14. (along with whichever school between vcu st louis and dayton isnt #12) i just think 14 is too many. at least at this time
plus if we went over 12, we'd run the risk that 5 years from now we'd still be talking about a BE split, only this time between the midwestern and northeastern schools!

Again who are the 5 ahead of them? I can see four but not 5

butler,xavier, creighton,vcu, dayton and stlouis.

College sports is about the coach. Unless you are a Kentucky, Indiana, North Carolina, or UCLA it is about finding and retaining a coach. There is no Syracuse without Boeheim, Georgetown with Thompson, Cincinatti without Huggins, Las Vegas without Tarkanian. We don't have football money so we have to retain the top coaches. So who has one? Butler/Stephan's; VCU/Smart; Creighton/McDermott; Wichita State/Marshall. Those are the guys you need to keep by bringing them on board and letting them pay the coach. Dayton and St Louis don't have that guy.

(01-22-2013 11:05 PM)JPSchmack Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 10:20 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 09:59 PM)JPSchmack Wrote:  There's really no reason to invite past the minimum number of what Fox will pay for... yet.

Adding teams later allows you to re-open negotiations (if you put that clause in your TV deal, which anyone is sure to do). Once the new money becomes the usual money, THEN you add two teams, renegotiate your TV deal with new markets and cash in.

That solves the problem of locking yourself into "who's good now." What would happen if [insert team here] lost their coach, the new coach swung and missed at recruits he probably wasn't going to get, had to scramble to fill his roster and the team went into the crapper? You'd be stuck with someone you picked more for recent success than historical competitiveness.

But if you take the no-brainers now and wait on the "second cut" list of teams, and see who goes Butler-style all over their now weaker conferences, you let THEM decide who's consistently good.

Xavier gets in because they've been to like 14 of the last 17 tourneys. If they're not in the A-10 (along with Temple), someone is probably going to step up and run that league like the Owls/Musketeers did. If it's VCU or Dayton in the A-10 and Wichita State pimpslapping a Creighton-less MVC, you add them later. If those conferences turn into parity central where EVERYONE'S taking a turn at the top... then you don't give someone else access.

So who is the 12th team in your mind if the top 4 are: Butler, VCU, Xavier and Creighton.

I think the top four are Xavier, Butler, Dayton and Saint Louis. Creighton would be my 12th.

Curious what school do you support? You and many like you want the C-11+ Butler. I suspect the Catholic schools all have a strong relationship and it could very well go that way. It will be interesting to see if that is how it plays out and if that is what Butler wants to be a part of.

People will just assume Butler is also a Catholic school. It will be interesting if they want that image or say no thanks.

(01-22-2013 10:25 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 09:42 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  i have no problem with wichita. i think they would be a good add IF we were going to 14. (along with whichever school between vcu st louis and dayton isnt #12) i just think 14 is too many. at least at this time
plus if we went over 12, we'd run the risk that 5 years from now we'd still be talking about a BE split, only this time between the midwestern and northeastern schools!

Again who are the 5 ahead of them? I can see four but not 5

As frank the tank said, There are about 20 teams ahead of Wichita that woud get in before them. You have only made the NCAA tourny like twice simce 1981. How difficult is this to understand?!

Who cares that you are going to qualify for an at large bid this year? What is your excuse for every other year since, besides two times, 1981 where you haven't? No one cares how many regular season wins you have. You have to make the tourny and win Games. Also if I were a betting man and you have a good 2nd half of the season and make it to the second round for like the second time since 1981 then your coach is gonna bolt anyway. In any case it's ridiculous to be spending this much time and energy on WS. If we go to 16 they ain't getting in.#facts

(01-22-2013 11:44 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 11:10 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  College sports is about the coach. Unless you are a Kentucky, Indiana, North Carolina, or UCLA it is about finding and retaining a coach.

I think Indiana under Davis and Sampson proves your point.

(01-22-2013 11:50 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  [quote='JPSchmack' pid='8872786' dateline='1358913928']
I think the top four are Xavier, Butler, Dayton and Saint Louis. Creighton would be my 12th.

Curious what school do you support? You and many like you want the C-11+ Butler. I suspect the Catholic schools all have a strong relationship and it could very well go that way. It will be interesting to see if that is how it plays out and if that is what Butler wants to be a part of.

People will just assume Butler is also a Catholic school. It will be interesting if they want that image or say no thanks.

I'm a St. Bonaventure grad. Been an A-10 guy for almost 20 years. But I'm interested in conference realignment as a spectator sport.

Anyone in the A-10 is going to say yes to the C7.
The A-10 probably isn't going to even bother "sweetening their offer," because they know it.

The raging Wichita State debate has actually convinced me of something.

10 teams. No Creighton, no Dayton, no Saint Louis. No candidates without unimpeachable slam-dunk credentials. No one whose resume requires an explanation. We've gone through all the arguments and all the numbers and I'm back to my mic-drop theory.

"Xavier Musketeers. 4 Sweet Sixteens in 5 years. In the Tournament 9 of the last 10 years"
"Butler Bulldogs. Back to Back Final Fours. In the Tournament 6 of the last 10 years."
"VCU Rams. 2011 Final Four. In the Tournament 5 of the last 10 years."

And then you close the door. How important are those 18 league games and maybe 15 televisable non-conference games to FOX? The St. Louis market? The Omaha market? Really? The TV sets and the money are in New York, Philly, Chicago and Washington.

(01-23-2013 07:28 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  The raging Wichita State debate has actually convinced me of something.

10 teams. No Creighton, no Dayton, no Saint Louis. No candidates without unimpeachable slam-dunk credentials. No one whose resume requires an explanation. We've gone through all the arguments and all the numbers and I'm back to my mic-drop theory.

"Xavier Musketeers. 4 Sweet Sixteens in 5 years. In the Tournament 9 of the last 10 years"
"Butler Bulldogs. Back to Back Final Fours. In the Tournament 6 of the last 10 years."
"VCU Rams. 2011 Final Four. In the Tournament 5 of the last 10 years."

And then you close the door. How important are those 18 league games and maybe 15 televisable non-conference games to FOX? The St. Louis market? The Omaha market? Really? The TV sets and the money are in New York, Philly, Chicago and Washington.

Did UConn have mic drop credentials when they joined the big east? No, but they turned out to be a pretty good addition.

(01-23-2013 12:17 AM)Xbus Wrote:  As frank the tank said, There are about 20 teams ahead of Wichita that woud get in before them. You have only made the NCAA tourny like twice simce 1981. How difficult is this to understand?!

Hyperbole ruins your point. Please don't even post again with this line, until you can produce an actual list 20 teams ahead of Wichita State (actually, you've dropped that from 30).

I've already explained the problems Wichita State has had in the 90s (coaching). Besides, you aren't even correct in your numbers. Wichita State has been to the tournament 5 times since the Elite 8 in 1981, not 2.

(01-23-2013 07:28 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  The raging Wichita State debate has actually convinced me of something.

10 teams. No Creighton, no Dayton, no Saint Louis. No candidates without unimpeachable slam-dunk credentials. No one whose resume requires an explanation. We've gone through all the arguments and all the numbers and I'm back to my mic-drop theory.

"Xavier Musketeers. 4 Sweet Sixteens in 5 years. In the Tournament 9 of the last 10 years"
"Butler Bulldogs. Back to Back Final Fours. In the Tournament 6 of the last 10 years."
"VCU Rams. 2011 Final Four. In the Tournament 5 of the last 10 years."

And then you close the door. How important are those 18 league games and maybe 15 televisable non-conference games to FOX? The St. Louis market? The Omaha market? Really? The TV sets and the money are in New York, Philly, Chicago and Washington.

Compared to the other 9 schools in your proposed 10-team league, VCU would be the nouveau-riche dot.com millionaire who annoyed everybody at the country club with his Ferrari and his wife's obnoxious fake tits throughout the 1990s. They'd be Rodney Dangerfield to the C7's Ted Knight in Caddyshack.

Until the Final Four, VCU was so lightly regarded even in Richmond that its own medical school didn't even wanted to be associated with the university's Monroe Park campus.

Now they have one of the hottest young coaches in America, a slew of bandwagon fans and an administration that's all-in on basketball as a means of wallpapering over the university's mediocre academic profile.

But what happens when Shaka inevitably moves on to take over one of the nation's true blue-blood programs? While VCU did well under Capel and Grant (1 total NCAA win), neither coach approached the level of national acclaim that Smart has. Assuming Smart's replacement will automatically keep VCU on its current trajectory is a risky play.

VCU fans desperately want to believe they belong in the company of schools like Georgetown, Xavier, Butler and Villanova. Based on recent basketball success, it would appear that they do. But in just about every other conceivable way, they'd stand out like a sore thumb in a 10-team New Big East. If the C7 presidents are looking for long-term partners, they'll live to regret ever associating with VCU.

(01-23-2013 08:49 AM)gmubballfan Wrote:  

(01-23-2013 07:28 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  The raging Wichita State debate has actually convinced me of something.

10 teams. No Creighton, no Dayton, no Saint Louis. No candidates without unimpeachable slam-dunk credentials. No one whose resume requires an explanation. We've gone through all the arguments and all the numbers and I'm back to my mic-drop theory.

"Xavier Musketeers. 4 Sweet Sixteens in 5 years. In the Tournament 9 of the last 10 years"
"Butler Bulldogs. Back to Back Final Fours. In the Tournament 6 of the last 10 years."
"VCU Rams. 2011 Final Four. In the Tournament 5 of the last 10 years."

And then you close the door. How important are those 18 league games and maybe 15 televisable non-conference games to FOX? The St. Louis market? The Omaha market? Really? The TV sets and the money are in New York, Philly, Chicago and Washington.

Compared to the other 9 schools in your proposed 10-team league, VCU would be the nouveau-riche dot.com millionaire who annoyed everybody at the country club with his Ferrari and his wife's obnoxious fake tits throughout the 1990s. They'd be Rodney Dangerfield to the C7's Ted Knight in Caddyshack.

Until the Final Four, VCU was so lightly regarded even in Richmond that its own medical school didn't even wanted to be associated with the university's Monroe Park campus.

Now they have one of the hottest young coaches in America, a slew of bandwagon fans and an administration that's all-in on basketball as a means of wallpapering over the university's mediocre academic profile.

But what happens when Shaka inevitably moves on to take over one of the nation's true blue-blood programs? While VCU did well under Capel and Grant (1 total NCAA win), neither coach approached the level of national acclaim that Smart has. Assuming Smart's replacement will automatically keep VCU on its current trajectory is a risky play.

VCU fans desperately want to believe they belong in the company of schools like Georgetown, Xavier, Butler and Villanova. Based on recent basketball success, it would appear that they do. But in just about every other conceivable way, they'd stand out like a sore thumb in a 10-team New Big East. If the C7 presidents are looking for long-term partners, they'll live to regret ever associating with VCU.

60% all time win percentage, which is Top 25 in Division I.

And they're now ranked in USNWR, at least, #170, within 10 spots of Louisville (#160), SDSU (#165), WVU(#165), USF (#170), UCF (#174) and above Houston (#184), and ECU (#199). If Louisville can play their way into the ACC, I think we can live with VCU.

I dream of Detroit making it into the C-7 but I doubt that will happen.