(12-26-2012 03:03 PM)TheRock Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 02:54 PM)gmubballfan Wrote:  Why is a Seton Hall fan here talking smack to anyone? Other than its ability to ride the coattails of a successful conference, your program is an absolute joke.

CSNbbs/ActiveBoards/C7bbs/C7bbsConferenceTalk/C7bbs Conference Talk...I believe I'm in the right place & you?

They want in, he can be here. He's got to put a little cream on that butthurt though.

(12-26-2012 03:06 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 03:03 PM)TheRock Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 02:54 PM)gmubballfan Wrote:  Why is a Seton Hall fan here talking smack to anyone? Other than its ability to ride the coattails of a successful conference, your program is an absolute joke.

CSNbbs/ActiveBoards/C7bbs/C7bbsConferenceTalk/C7bbs Conference Talk...I believe I'm in the right place & you?

They want in, he can be here. He's got to put a little cream on that butthurt though.

Not "butthurt" in the least ... whatever that means.

Since you conveniently ignored my other post correcting your inaccurate characterization of the Mason basketball program, I feel no need to make those same points to some VCU dimwit.

(12-26-2012 03:23 PM)gmubballfan Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 03:06 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 03:03 PM)TheRock Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 02:54 PM)gmubballfan Wrote:  Why is a Seton Hall fan here talking smack to anyone? Other than its ability to ride the coattails of a successful conference, your program is an absolute joke.

CSNbbs/ActiveBoards/C7bbs/C7bbsConferenceTalk/C7bbs Conference Talk...I believe I'm in the right place & you?

They want in, he can be here. He's got to put a little cream on that butthurt though.

Not "butthurt" in the least ... whatever that means.

Since you conveniently ignored my other post correcting your inaccurate characterization of the Mason basketball program, I feel no need to make those same points to some VCU dimwit.

Now that's more like it...if dude #1 punches u in the gut don't yell at dude #2 and say what u looking at. All jokes aside I liked your other post it was a solid defense.

As far as the Hall don't worry about us we're moving from the toughest bball confernce and we're looking to kick some mid-major arse real soon!

(12-26-2012 03:06 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 03:03 PM)TheRock Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 02:54 PM)gmubballfan Wrote:  Why is a Seton Hall fan here talking smack to anyone? Other than its ability to ride the coattails of a successful conference, your program is an absolute joke.

CSNbbs/ActiveBoards/C7bbs/C7bbsConferenceTalk/C7bbs Conference Talk...I believe I'm in the right place & you?

They want in, he can be here. He's got to put a little cream on that butthurt though.

No I agree...very glad they're here too just found it funny to asked what am I doing here...

(12-26-2012 03:23 PM)gmubballfan Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 03:06 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 03:03 PM)TheRock Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 02:54 PM)gmubballfan Wrote:  Why is a Seton Hall fan here talking smack to anyone? Other than its ability to ride the coattails of a successful conference, your program is an absolute joke.

CSNbbs/ActiveBoards/C7bbs/C7bbsConferenceTalk/C7bbs Conference Talk...I believe I'm in the right place & you?

They want in, he can be here. He's got to put a little cream on that butthurt though.

Not "butthurt" in the least ... whatever that means.

Since you conveniently ignored my other post correcting your inaccurate characterization of the Mason basketball program, I feel no need to make those same points to some VCU dimwit.

I didn't ignore your post--I gave you rep points for it. But VCU fan made some very valid points, that you didn't address except to call out a Seton Hall Big East OG.

And if you're not into repeating yourself, message boards may not be your thing.

(12-26-2012 03:23 PM)gmubballfan Wrote:  Not "butthurt" in the least ... whatever that means.

Since you conveniently ignored my other post correcting your inaccurate characterization of the Mason basketball program, I feel no need to make those same points to some VCU dimwit.

Interesting that I'm 'some VCU dimwit', but not one rebuttal was made. Excellent argument.

Have I misrepresented anything about George Mason here? Feel free to correct me if I have.

(12-26-2012 03:43 PM)VCUfan Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 03:23 PM)gmubballfan Wrote:  Not "butthurt" in the least ... whatever that means.

Since you conveniently ignored my other post correcting your inaccurate characterization of the Mason basketball program, I feel no need to make those same points to some VCU dimwit.

Interesting that I'm 'some VCU dimwit', but not one rebuttal was made. Excellent argument. ... Have I misrepresented anything about George Mason here? Feel free to correct me if I have.

Ok, repeating arguments is one thing, a total cut-and-paste is something else.

And, having said that, I should go change my .sig

Fair enough. Edited.

No need for insulting, right now GMU has 2 major obstacles before they can be considered a legitimate expansion candidate.

1) Program strength/success/reputation
2) Proximity to Georgetown

Until both of those problems go away, I don't see the point in anyone getting upset over either A) bad reporting B) a typo in the NY Post.

(12-26-2012 03:41 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 03:23 PM)gmubballfan Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 03:06 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 03:03 PM)TheRock Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 02:54 PM)gmubballfan Wrote:  Why is a Seton Hall fan here talking smack to anyone? Other than its ability to ride the coattails of a successful conference, your program is an absolute joke.

CSNbbs/ActiveBoards/C7bbs/C7bbsConferenceTalk/C7bbs Conference Talk...I believe I'm in the right place & you?

They want in, he can be here. He's got to put a little cream on that butthurt though.

Not "butthurt" in the least ... whatever that means.

Since you conveniently ignored my other post correcting your inaccurate characterization of the Mason basketball program, I feel no need to make those same points to some VCU dimwit.

I didn't ignore your post--I gave you rep points for it. But VCU fan made some very valid points, that you didn't address except to call out a Seton Hall Big East OG.

And if you're not into repeating yourself, message boards may not be your thing.

I gave GMU Ballfan rep points too for that post, he earned them. But then my school gets called a leech just because I acknowledged the obvious about VCUfan's awesome ...

For the record I was just doing what any self-respecting, OG BE fan should be doing right now, which is legitimately flaming these arguments up b/n potential newcomers so I can figure out which fan base I should really be rooting for to join us! To hell with market-size give me a large diehard fan base every time...

I totally understand existing C7 schools like to see schools arguing over why they should join them on this board. It's a very obvious ego boost and makes you guys feel better about your prospects after leaving one of the strongest basketball conferences in the country in the Big East. There is considerable uncertainty on how things will look in the future and encouraging as many people to come here and argue why they should strengthen your position is both natural and understandable.

I honestly don't think you will see public schools involved in this arrangement, but I do think if quality basketball is the biggest consideration that there are other schools that are ahead of some of the predominantly rumored private schools like Dayton and Saint Louis.

I'm also a little bit surprised at the whole market obsession. For the basketball schools it's been established that you all made more off of NCAA revenue sharing than you all did from the TV contract in the Big East. Basketball conferences are not going to command all that much clout for TV, history has shown this to be true. I think it stands to reason that going for NCAA-quality programs will ultimately bring more money in than banking on a school's market bringing value in TV contract negotiations for what will be a basketball-only conference.

That's just my opinion, and I've been wrong before.

(12-26-2012 03:43 PM)VCUfan Wrote:  Interesting that I'm 'some VCU dimwit', but not one rebuttal was made. Excellent argument.

Please feel free to enlighten this dimwit if you have something valuable to share.

1. All of Mason's success has been under 1 coach (Jim Larranaga) who left when his AD did not commit resources to compensating him in response to Shaka Smart's new contract. Larranaga actually approached Miami about their position when that happened, they did not seek him out. They have never had any relevant success under anyone else in their history.

Our AD was putting the finishing touches on a raise for Larranaga when he threw his petulant temper tantrum and left. He was going to get a million bucks, it just didn't happen as quickly as he would've liked. So we gave Hewitt the million instead.

Shaka's salary was relevant only as it impacted Larranaga's enormous ego. And quite frankly, why would we have felt compelled to matching Shaka's salary for a coach 30 years older who probably had 3-4 more years left tops? That would've been irresponsible and pretty stupid.

Also, not that it matters for the purposes of this discussion, but we made the NCAAs once under Ernie Nestor and barely missed in Rick Barnes' only season before he left for Providence. Joe Harrington also had some good teams at Mason that had the misfortune of being in the same conference as David Robinson.

(12-26-2012 03:43 PM)VCUfan Wrote:  2. Jim Larranaga had 5 NCAA appearances, the only other appearance in program history was as a 15-seed in 1989. Larranaga advanced in 2 out of those 5 appearances. 2 of the other appearances were as a 14-seed. They were really only nationally-relevant (top 60) in 2006 and 2011 of any of the years they went to the NCAA's. The other 3 years they went to the NCAAs they had double-digit losses.

Those are all facts, although our current coach took both Siena and Georgia Tech to the tournament and has reached an NCAA final. Since he's only in his second season at Mason (24-9 first year wasn't exactly awful), I'd say it's a little too soon to suggest that we're just gonna fall off the map without Larranaga.

(12-26-2012 03:43 PM)VCUfan Wrote:  3. They had widely publicized plans to build a basketball practice facility that they scrapped because the admin thinks it's unnecessary to spend all that money for one program. They practice in an athletic center that is open to all athletics teams as well as students. They also play in an arena that was built in 1985.

The sparkling new Recreation Athletic Complex is basically the basketball team's practice facility attached to a fitness center for students and faculty. The RAC has a full-sized gym that is reserved for the basketball team whenever it wants it; it's not like they have to practice alongside students playing pickup games.

Now I'm as guilty as anyone of wanting the latest bells and whistles. But given the millions that were invested in that building just a few years ago, I can understand our admin opting to make investments elsewhere.

Speaking of which, we put $15 million into upgrading the Patriot Center just a few years back. It's obviously not the best arena in the world, but it's far from the worst, either.

(12-26-2012 03:43 PM)VCUfan Wrote:  4. George Mason's average RPI over the last 10 seasons is 85.6 (per NCAA.org) and they have finished outside the top 100 3 times in that span, 2 of those were following their Final Four:

02-03: 93
03-04: 81
04-05: 154
05-06: 26
06-07: 124
07-08: 63
08-09: 51
09-10: 158
10-11: 24
11-12: 82

Not sure what looks so bad about that -- especially in a mid-major league with a bunch of bottom-feeders bringing the top teams down.

(12-26-2012 03:43 PM)VCUfan Wrote:  5. George Mason does not deliver the Northern Virginia or DC market. Their attendance has steadily decreased almost every year since their Final Four in 2006. Here are the last 10 seasons (per NCAA.org):

02-03: 3,347
03-04: 3,864
04-05: 3,937
05-06: 4,533 (Final Four year)
06-07: 6,834
07-08: 6,494
08-09: 6,295
09-10: 5,837
10-11: 5,896
11-12: 5,161

6. They are in Georgetown's market competing for the same viewers. Georgetown carries the market much more than George Mason which is still viewed as a commuter school in the region and outside of the Final Four bump, has little interest in the community outside George Mason. They never averaged more than 5,000 before the Final Four despite being a large urban school of over 30,000. They have steadily decreased in attendance nearly every year since getting that bump.

Have I misrepresented anything about George Mason here? Feel free to correct me if I have.

You'll get nothing but agreement from me that the university does a poor job of marketing the program and attracting fans, although our attendance has gone back up over 6,000 this season and we don't have the luxury of being basically the only "pro franchise" in town like VCU does.

But using attendance as the only measure of Mason's popularity in the DC market is flawed for a couple reasons:

1. We've struggled to find name opponents willing to play in Fairfax, especially since the Final Four -- and with both Georgetown and Maryland right down the road (as well as the Caps and Wizards), you're not gonna get the casual fan in the building for the collection of low-majors we usually host. We've lost something like four home games in the last five seasons, so it doesn't seem to have anything to do with a lack of on-court success.

2/ We'll be on TV 26 times during the regular season, which obviously means somebody believes our product is delivering eyeballs within the region.

(12-26-2012 04:17 PM)VCUfan Wrote:  I totally understand existing C7 schools like to see schools arguing over why they should join them on this board. It's a very obvious ego boost and makes you guys feel better about your prospects after leaving one of the strongest basketball conferences in the country in the Big East. There is considerable uncertainty on how things will look in the future and encouraging as many people to come here and argue why they should strengthen your position is both natural and understandable......

I learned more about GMU bball in the posts written by you & GMU bballfan than I ever thought I would know in my lifetime. That actual helps me as a C7+ fan understand what strengths/weaknesses potential schools are bringing to the table. Maybe you would consider watching fans defend their schools an ego boost but most here consider that everyday conference talk...Btw my college sports ego was boosted high enough the day the C7 decided to bolt, come what may! The only thing that would have made bolting sweeter is if Uconn & Cincy would have come too, but they have big time fb aspirations.

(12-26-2012 04:17 PM)VCUfan Wrote:  I'm also a little bit surprised at the whole market obsession. For the basketball schools it's been established that you all made more off of NCAA revenue sharing than you all did from the TV contract in the Big East. Basketball conferences are not going to command all that much clout for TV, history has shown this to be true. I think it stands to reason that going for NCAA-quality programs will ultimately bring more money in than banking on a school's market bringing value in TV contract negotiations for what will be a basketball-only conference.

That's just my opinion, and I've been wrong before.

1. I pretty much agree with your position. But then, I would, since I'm pushing for VCU as #10.
2. There are markets and there are markets. The Omaha market vs the Richmond market vs the Wichita market, it's half a million or a million people. New York, Chicago, LA--I'm in. Dallas, Houston, Miami, Atlanta, Boston, Philadelphia--I'm listening. After that, meh. If Gonzaga were in West Virginia instead of Washington, I'd want them.
3. What matters is a presence in that market. And all of the candidates have that--local media report on your teams.

All that said, I'm going to backtrack a bit, and say that when you're comparing programs on a similar level of visibility, I'd take the one in a 3M metro like St Louis with no NBA competition over the one in Omaha or Wichita.

Start debate how Creighton's 3 tournament wins in 20 years are light-years better than SLU's 3 tournament wins in 20 years.

gmubballfan Wrote:Our AD was putting the finishing touches on a raise for Larranaga when he threw his petulant temper tantrum and left. He was going to get a million bucks, it just didn't happen as quickly as he would've liked. So we gave Hewitt the million instead.

Shaka's salary was relevant only as it impacted Larranaga's enormous ego. And quite frankly, why would we have felt compelled to matching Shaka's salary for a coach 30 years older who probably had 3-4 more years left tops? That would've been irresponsible and pretty stupid.

Also, not that it matters for the purposes of this discussion, but we made the NCAAs once under Ernie Nestor and barely missed in Rick Barnes' only season before he left for Providence. Joe Harrington also had some good teams at Mason that had the misfortune of being in the same conference as David Robinson.

So you agree that your AD didn't commit resources to the only coach that ever had sustained success at George Mason and put you guys on the map in the basketball world? Paul Hewitt only makes almost 1 million with all bonuses figured in. That's a misrepresentation of his contract. His base salary is just $659,750 without his bonuses. Tom O'Connor also stated that Larranaga's proposed contract would have approached 1 million with all bonuses factored in.

You're right that the rest of your point is not relevant to the purpose of this discussion. Every school has there 'if only' moments. What matters is what you did. 3 out of George Mason's 6 NCAA bids in their history were as a 14-seed or lower. Outside of 2006 and 2011, the other appearance was as a 12-seed in 2008 when you guys won the CAA as a result of an upset of a higher-seeded team on the other side of the bracket in the CAA tournament and got blown out in the NCAA first-round by Notre Dame by 18.

gmubballfan Wrote:Those are all facts, although our current coach took both Siena andGeorgia Tech to the tournament and has reached an NCAA final. Since he's only in his second season at Mason (24-9 first year wasn't exactly awful), I'd say it's a little too soon to suggest that we're just gonna fall off the map without Larranaga.

I'm not sure touting a coaches' accomplishments at another school has anything to do with George Mason. In this day and age many schools score 20+ win seasons. Those 24-wins were not good enough to get either a bid to the NCAA's or the NIT. I'm not suggesting you'd fall off the map, I do think it's quite accurate to say that no one else has ever had significant success at George Mason, Hewitt included so far. Unless you excuse missing the NCAAs and NIT as a good season because he won 24 games.

gmubballfan Wrote:The sparkling new Recreation Athletic Complex is basically the basketball team's practice facility attached to a fitness center for students and faculty. The RAC has a full-sized gym that is reserved for the basketball team whenever it wants it; it's not like they have to practice alongside students playing pickup games.

Now I'm as guilty as anyone of wanting the latest bells and whistles. But given the millions that were invested in that building just a few years ago, I can understand our admin opting to make investments elsewhere.

Speaking of which, we put $15 million into upgrading the Patriot Center just a few years back. It's obviously not the best arena in the world, but it's far from the worst, either.

That's all well and good, but I'm just pointing out your admins attitude towards your basketball program. They publicly stated they were looking to build a practice facility and then scrapped the project.

That speaks to how important men's basketball is overall to George Mason's administration. This is going to be a basketball-dominated conference so it's a valid consideration. The RAC is for everybody, including the men's basketball team when it wants it. It is not dedicated to the basketball team. There is a big difference.

gmubballfan Wrote:Not sure what looks so bad about that -- especially in a mid-major league with a bunch of bottom-feeders bringing the top teams down.

Well if you weren't competing against schools that are all better than you over the same time period in that area, I agree it wouldn't look so bad. It's good for the CAA, and the numbers make it look like you are better suited to being there than moving up.

It speaks to the inconsistency of excellence at George Mason and that's important since basketball is driving the bus in this proposed conference.

gmubballfan Wrote:You'll get nothing but agreement from me that the university does a poor job of marketing the program and attracting fans, although our attendance has gone back up over 6,000 this season and we don't have the luxury of being basically the only "pro franchise" in town like VCU does.

Glad we agree on the first part. The second is nothing but an excuse. George Mason has 30,000 students and can't even fill their student sections. You have millions more people to draw from in your area and you are situated in one of the most affluent areas of the country where people have much more spending money on things like sports per capita than many smaller locales.

gmubballfan Wrote:But using attendance as the only measure of Mason's popularity in the DC market is flawed for a couple reasons:

1. We've struggled to find name opponents willing to play in Fairfax, especially since the Final Four -- and with both Georgetown and Maryland right down the road (as well as the Caps and Wizards), you're not gonna get the casual fan in the building for the collection of low-majors we usually host. We've lost something like four home games in the last five seasons, so it doesn't seem to have anything to do with a lack of on-court success.

If you're making the argument that having name opponents in your arena will help your attendance, that's not a unique argument. All it shows is that you don't have drawing power for your own product. That's a problem. Everyone will pack the house if Georgetown and Villanova are coming to town, that's not a unique argument to George Mason.

gmubballfan Wrote:2/ We'll be on TV 26 times during the regular season, which obviously means somebody believes our product is delivering eyeballs within the region.

Or it could mean that your conference signed a TV contract and the conference looks very different now from when the TV contract was signed. George Mason is the only program in the conference with any type of cache that's any good. There are very few decent teams in the CAA at this point. It's not like there was much of a choice.

VCU guy, I'm really not interested in going tit-for-tat with you, and I'm quite sure it's even less interesting for the fans of the C7 schools.

Fact is, despite your repeated attempts to paint Mason's program in the most negative light possible, we were still considered strong enough to merit an invite from the same A-10 that you and Butler joined. Our outgoing president scuttled the move because he didn't want to make a major decision that would impact his successor. Doesn't change the fact that there was an offer.

You may think it makes VCU more attractive to the C7 because your president has dramatically raised student fees in an era of already skyrocketing tuition to keep a basketball coach (who's still going to leave at some point), but I think it says a lot about VCU's second-rate academics that it markets itself as a "basketball school."

Our administration is just as committed to highlighting the accomplishments of our faculty's Nobel laureates as the success of our athletic programs. We've invested nearly a billion dollars over the past 10 years in new dorms and academic buildings to reshape our campus and meet the improving academic profile of our students.

It probably won't make a difference in the final analysis, but the overall character of our university has far more in common with the C7 schools than does VCU.

You mean that you tried, and are now backing off. That's fine.

I agree that Mason is a good program worthy of adding to the A-10. I'd hope that Mason would join if the A-10 were raided. This conference is a bit of a different animal however. I agree that there was an offer to the A-10. You were not competing with Creighton, Xavier, Butler, Dayton, or SLU for consideration to that league either.

Your attempts to marginalize VCU aside, I don't think either school has much in common with the Catholic 7. I will not trash your school in return. I will even agree with you that George Mason is a better academic institution than VCU at this point. I'm not as petty as you'd like to think.

I have not tried to compare VCU and Mason, you're the only one trying to do that. All I've done is stated Mason's merits or lack thereof on their own for others to judge. The fact that you're trying to put down VCU in response to factual points says all anyone needs to know about where you're coming from.

VCU dimwit out.

(12-26-2012 04:42 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  [quote='VCUfan' pid='8749236' dateline='1356556645']

Start debate how Creighton's 3 tournament wins in 20 years are light-years better than SLU's 3 tournament wins in 20 years.

What you think doesn't mean **** when it comes down to what the presidents decide so trying to bait a Creighton fan (a couple exceptions out there) doesn't work. Stick with baiting Wichita fans if you want entertainment.

(12-26-2012 05:32 PM)LJay Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 04:42 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  [quote='VCUfan' pid='8749236' dateline='1356556645']

Start debate how Creighton's 3 tournament wins in 20 years are light-years better than SLU's 3 tournament wins in 20 years.

What you think doesn't mean **** when it comes down to what the presidents decide so trying to bait a Creighton fan (a couple exceptions out there) doesn't work. Stick with baiting Wichita fans if you want entertainment.

Nobody's opinion on the boards actually matter to the school presidents, so what's your point for posting.

Is there a reason everyone in this thread is all pissed off? Can't we debate the merits of why schools should or shouldn't matter without attacking each other?