(11-12-2012 02:41 PM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  

(11-12-2012 02:02 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Democracy is itself inherently socialist when compared to a monarchy.

Good thing we don't have a democracy

Representative democracy is a form of democracy.

I take Christ's teachings to be of personal action from the heart, not that of the political. Making the voluntary decision to pull out your wallet, donate canned goods, volunteer your time, give clothes to the Salvation Army, etc, and giving to the poor are the truest signs of virtue. Moreso than voting for a politician to take money from your rich neighbors and dole it out behind the scenes.

Lest anyone thinks I'm in the tax-is-theft crowd, I'm not. I support safety nets to cushion a bad fall, public money for infrastructure, and other collective expenditures.

But at the end of the day, it's all about how you treat others. Directly. A wealthy Hollywood actor could parrot lines about liberal federal spending, but it rings hollow if he treats his underlings like crap or makes ridiculously selfish demands on film sets.

(11-12-2012 02:45 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(11-12-2012 02:41 PM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  

(11-12-2012 02:02 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Democracy is itself inherently socialist when compared to a monarchy.

Good thing we don't have a democracy

Representative democracy is a form of democracy.

I think you were looking for the word majoritarian or even populist, not socialist.

The United States is a constitutional republic. Not a representative democracy.

Democracy means the majority rules and the minority group/view/belief suffers.

A republic protects the rights of the minority group/view/belief.

It is still a representative democracy

Funny we are studying Acts in our Sunday School class and we came to Chapter 4 where it talked about people selling their land and giving their money to help those who needed.

The difference in Christianity and Socialism is simple.. Christ teaches us to give to those who are needy of our own free will.. That's Chrisianity (well not completely but for the sake of this argument). Socialism is when the government decides what you're giving and who to give it to.

Are taxes a sin? No. Taxes are a necessary evil, HA. Seriously, taxes are to pay for those things needed within our government to pay for things we all enjoy-- roads, highways, public schools, military.

Somewhere along the line someone decided our taxes could be used to help those in need. Which I have no problem with. If a man/woman/family has fallen on hard times and needs a little assistance to make ends meet I have no problem with that or to someone who is handicapped and cannot fend for themselves or work. My problem lies with those who have never worked and been on government assistance from day one and have the ability to work but refuse to.

(11-12-2012 02:00 PM)ummechengr Wrote:  

Quote:It’s amazing to me how many people think that voting to have government take money by force through taxes to give money to poor people is compassion. Helping poor and suffering people is compassion. Voting for our government to use guns to give money to help poor and suffering people is immoral, self righteous, bullying laziness. People need to be fed, medicated, educated clothed, and sheltered, and if we’re compassionate we’ll help them, but you get no moral credit for forcing other people to do what you think is right. There is great joy in helping people, but no joy in doing it at gun point.
- Penn Jillette

Penn gets the "gun in the room" concept...of which I also get and 100% agree with.

(11-12-2012 05:29 PM)gdunn Wrote:  Funny we are studying Acts in our Sunday School class and we came to Chapter 4 where it talked about people selling their land and giving their money to help those who needed.

The difference in Christianity and Socialism is simple.. Christ teaches us to give to those who are needy of our own free will.. That's Chrisianity (well not completely but for the sake of this argument). Socialism is when the government decides what you're giving and who to give it to.

Are taxes a sin? No. Taxes are a necessary evil, HA. Seriously, taxes are to pay for those things needed within our government to pay for things we all enjoy-- roads, highways, public schools, military.

Somewhere along the line someone decided our taxes could be used to help those in need. Which I have no problem with. If a man/woman/family has fallen on hard times and needs a little assistance to make ends meet I have no problem with that or to someone who is handicapped and cannot fend for themselves or work. My problem lies with those who have never worked and been on government assistance from day one and have the ability to work but refuse to.

This is what happens to EVERY government program. The scope and cost always expand beyond it's original intent. The original intent was to provide a safety net for those that were not able bodies and could not provide for themselves by the fruits of their labors. It barely resembles that now.

(11-12-2012 05:29 PM)gdunn Wrote:  Funny we are studying Acts in our Sunday School class and we came to Chapter 4 where it talked about people selling their land and giving their money to help those who needed.
The difference in Christianity and Socialism is simple.. Christ teaches us to give to those who are needy of our own free will.. That's Chrisianity (well not completely but for the sake of this argument). Socialism is when the government decides what you're giving and who to give it to.
Are taxes a sin? No. Taxes are a necessary evil, HA. Seriously, taxes are to pay for those things needed within our government to pay for things we all enjoy-- roads, highways, public schools, military.
Somewhere along the line someone decided our taxes could be used to help those in need. Which I have no problem with. If a man/woman/family has fallen on hard times and needs a little assistance to make ends meet I have no problem with that or to someone who is handicapped and cannot fend for themselves or work. My problem lies with those who have never worked and been on government assistance from day one and have the ability to work but refuse to.

Jesus never said "give to Caesar and let Caesar redistribute to those in need" or anything even remotely approaching that. That's the problem with the liberation theology Jesus-as-Che-Guevarra notion. The Jews wanted Che Guevarra, Jesus was not, and therefore He fell out of favor with the Jewish leadership. The whole "Jesus was a socialist" idea relies necessarily on a really bad read of the Bible.

As far as the "have the ability to work but refuse" comment, there is one significant factor you overlooked--the "welfare trap." There are several analyses out there showing that a family of three moving from about $15,000 to about $55,000 in earned income loses a dollar to the combination of taxes and lost benefits for each marginal dollar of income--a 100% effective tax rate. The numbers vary slightly, and some have questioned them. But do the math yourself. You start out with $X in benefits, and by the time you get to $Y in earned income those benefits are all gone, plus you're paying taxes on $Y, and there's simply no way mathematically to get from $0 to $Y without going through a rough patch. That rough patch, however large, provides a tremendous disincentive to getting a job--or a better job--and essentially acts as a barrier to escaping from poverty--and BOTH D's and R's are to blame. When you bring home $40,000 a year on the dole, or $40,000 a year if you get a job, there's a rational case to be made for staying on the dole.

oh hae what's going on in here? oh just a bunch of christians rationalizing not following christs teachings in the name of christianity? oh, well nothing new i guess.

(11-13-2012 02:36 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  oh hae what's going on in here? oh just a bunch of christians rationalizing not following christs teachings in the name of christianity? oh, well nothing new i guess.

What teaching is not being followed and what rationalizing is going on?

(11-11-2012 01:04 PM)Mr. Peanut Wrote:  Caring for the elderly, poor and sick is not a Socialist concept it is a bedrock Christian principle

Yes, but not through government. I think the care is supposed to be from individual to individual.

I'm not religious, but as far as I know the Bible does not mention expanding government so it can care for all people from the cradle to the grave.

(11-13-2012 07:24 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(11-11-2012 01:04 PM)Mr. Peanut Wrote:  Caring for the elderly, poor and sick is not a Socialist concept it is a bedrock Christian principle

Yes, but not though government. I think the care is supposed to be from individual to individual.

I'm not religious, but as far as I know the Bible does not mention expanding government so it can care for all people from the cradle to the grave.

The left is going to add the Gospel of Obama.

(11-11-2012 01:04 PM)Mr. Peanut Wrote:  Caring for the elderly, poor and sick is not a Socialist concept it is a bedrock Christian principle

Which is interesting, since the undeniable failures of socialist governments, and the "progressives" in the United States demonstrates that the elderly, poor and sick are NOT being cared for.

Yet you support these government failures.

What does that make you?

(11-12-2012 11:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-12-2012 05:29 PM)gdunn Wrote:  Funny we are studying Acts in our Sunday School class and we came to Chapter 4 where it talked about people selling their land and giving their money to help those who needed.
The difference in Christianity and Socialism is simple.. Christ teaches us to give to those who are needy of our own free will.. That's Chrisianity (well not completely but for the sake of this argument). Socialism is when the government decides what you're giving and who to give it to.
Are taxes a sin? No. Taxes are a necessary evil, HA. Seriously, taxes are to pay for those things needed within our government to pay for things we all enjoy-- roads, highways, public schools, military.
Somewhere along the line someone decided our taxes could be used to help those in need. Which I have no problem with. If a man/woman/family has fallen on hard times and needs a little assistance to make ends meet I have no problem with that or to someone who is handicapped and cannot fend for themselves or work. My problem lies with those who have never worked and been on government assistance from day one and have the ability to work but refuse to.

Jesus never said "give to Caesar and let Caesar redistribute to those in need" or anything even remotely approaching that. That's the problem with the liberation theology Jesus-as-Che-Guevarra notion. The Jews wanted Che Guevarra, Jesus was not, and therefore He fell out of favor with the Jewish leadership. The whole "Jesus was a socialist" idea relies necessarily on a really bad read of the Bible.

As far as the "have the ability to work but refuse" comment, there is one significant factor you overlooked--the "welfare trap." There are several analyses out there showing that a family of three moving from about $15,000 to about $55,000 in earned income loses a dollar to the combination of taxes and lost benefits for each marginal dollar of income--a 100% effective tax rate. The numbers vary slightly, and some have questioned them. But do the math yourself. You start out with $X in benefits, and by the time you get to $Y in earned income those benefits are all gone, plus you're paying taxes on $Y, and there's simply no way mathematically to get from $0 to $Y without going through a rough patch. That rough patch, however large, provides a tremendous disincentive to getting a job--or a better job--and essentially acts as a barrier to escaping from poverty--and BOTH D's and R's are to blame. When you bring home $40,000 a year on the dole, or $40,000 a year if you get a job, there's a rational case to be made for staying on the dole.

Exactly.. The entire system is screwed up. We can't just shut it off now because if we did, there are innocent children that will suffer for it. We need to quit enacting new packages and acts and fix the things in place.

We can all agree a family will not become wealthy by being on Welfare.

(11-13-2012 06:53 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-13-2012 02:36 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  oh hae what's going on in here? oh just a bunch of christians rationalizing not following christs teachings in the name of christianity? oh, well nothing new i guess.

What teaching is not being followed and what rationalizing is going on?

I think it's the fact that we don't want the government taxing us and distributing that is what he's getting at.. Again it should be done at our own free will, not the government's recommendation.

If Owl 69/70/75 decides to give 90% of what he made to the sick, needy, and elderly and I decide to only give 5%, that should be our business and let us handle it with our Maker, not the US Government.

(11-13-2012 08:23 AM)gdunn Wrote:  Exactly.. The entire system is screwed up. We can't just shut it off now because if we did, there are innocent children that will suffer for it.

Innocent children suffer with it in place, so that's no excuse.

You don't keep doing the wrong thing.

(11-13-2012 08:41 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(11-13-2012 08:23 AM)gdunn Wrote:  Exactly.. The entire system is screwed up. We can't just shut it off now because if we did, there are innocent children that will suffer for it.

Innocent children suffer with it in place, so that's no excuse.

You don't keep doing the wrong thing.

Is there a way to fix it especially with UE up so high and jobs hard to come across?

(11-13-2012 08:47 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(11-13-2012 08:41 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(11-13-2012 08:23 AM)gdunn Wrote:  Exactly.. The entire system is screwed up. We can't just shut it off now because if we did, there are innocent children that will suffer for it.

Innocent children suffer with it in place, so that's no excuse.

You don't keep doing the wrong thing.

Is there a way to fix it especially with UE up so high and jobs hard to come across?

Yes. Get rid of the causes:

The aforementioned Welfare Trap
Minimum wage laws
Unenforced immigration laws
Oppressive bureaucratic regulations

Lots of jobs available in the US, that's why foreign nationals keep coming. They just don't pay great. Nevertheless, w/ automation lowering production costs of goods, they pay adequately. That's the critical detail.

Moreover, people who work tend to be healthier, they aspire to do more, and are innovative.

(11-13-2012 08:25 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(11-13-2012 06:53 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-13-2012 02:36 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  oh hae what's going on in here? oh just a bunch of christians rationalizing not following christs teachings in the name of christianity? oh, well nothing new i guess.

What teaching is not being followed and what rationalizing is going on?

I think it's the fact that we don't want the government taxing us and distributing that is what he's getting at.. Again it should be done at our own free will, not the government's recommendation.
If Owl 69/70/75 decides to give 90% of what he made to the sick, needy, and elderly and I decide to only give 5%, that should be our business and let us handle it with our Maker, not the US Government.

I favor a safety net for everyone, and have laid out in detail exactly how I would set it up so that nobody needs to live below the poverty line. What I don't favor is a welfare system where
1) a recipient is financially better off staying on welfare than getting a job, and/or
2) the amount paid to relatively wealthy bureaucrats to run the system exceeds the amount paid to poor people who are supposed to benefit.

Most of our current government programs fail one or both of those tests.

I am all for helping the poor, and I put my money where my mouth is. There have actually been years where I gave more to the poor, hungry, and homeless than I made. Not to brag, but to pre-empt the personal attacks that I know will come from the leftists on here. What I am not willing to do is pay six figures to some Ph.D. in sociology to administer the program.