(09-24-2012 10:52 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(09-24-2012 10:44 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Again, you're defending sh*tty parents rights which they don't even care enough to exercise, while throwing their kids under the bus.

I'll defend the rights of any person, weather I like the way they parent or not..

Except for a teenager who is in a critical position in which time is of the utmost importance in order to prevent a pregnancy.

And again, those parents still have every parental right if they exercise them, like most other civil rights enumerated in the constitution (unless of course you think that we don't have freedom of speech unless we all choose to protest or burn flags?).

(09-24-2012 10:57 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  (unless of course you think that we don't have freedom of speech unless we all choose to protest or burn flags?).

My failure to abrogate my freedom of speech does nto give the government the right to muzzle me...

So, one last time... You're OK with nurses handing out hormone pills without Parental consent? without a full knowledge of the kids medical history?

Quote:My failure to abrogate my freedom of speech does nto give the government the right to muzzle me...

And this isn't infringing upon a parents expressed rights either, it's really not that difficult to comprehend. Well, for most people.

Quote:So, one last time... You're OK with nurses handing out hormone pills without Parental consent? without a full knowledge of the kids medical history?

There is parental consent though, and since this right directly effects the health and well being of another person, they must act upon those rights to assert them or else the rights of the state and the minor can be expressed. Much like the child of a Jehovas Witness can be given blood transfusion. The minor does have a certain amount of rights to their own health.

This isn't going well for you.

(09-24-2012 10:04 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

Quote: They're providing an option to someone not legally capable of selecting an option. If you can't legally choose to drink a beer, you shouldn't be allowed to choose to take hormones. What if the parent suspects she's being raped by a teacher?

They're providing the option to those who have no active parental units in their lives. Do you think the only teenagers who should have the ability to take Plan B are those whose parents are active in their lives? I can't really comprehend how you're not seeing the idiocy of that circular reasoning.

So where is the prrof that the parents aren't active? You said yourself kids won't tell their parents they're having sex... why would they tell their parents to opt them into plan b if they don't want them to think they're having sex? heck... where is the proof that parents who don't care what their kids do would for some reason say NO to this?

Quote:As for the rape comment, what the f*ck? How is a teacher raping a student anyway applicable to this?

Because a student having sex with a teacher is often hidden from the parent. The notification of Plan B would prove the rape, but this would eliminate that notification, and let the rape continue. I don't know the specifics and it varies by state, but a 14yr old freshman with an 18yr old senior is also usually rape... and the parents may not otherwise approve of the guy. I would generally have said yes to plan B, but I'd still like to know that they needed it. That is my right as a parent.

Quote:

Quote: The government set the age of consent for those other events.

And they also allow ways in which those age of consents can be changed in certain circumstances.

Sure. have a hearing.

Quote:

Quote: The government shouldn't make you have to opt-in to your constitutional rights.

Um, yes they should. Unless of course you think they should force every american to own firearms, throw out every confession by any criminal, force people to join a church, etc etc etc GOD YOU'RE NOT GOOD AT THIS LOGIC THING.

?? What part of choice and responsibility do you not get? A child can't buy a firearm, even if they have ****** parents, and a parent doesn't have to do anything to buy a gun except buy a gun. they don't have to file a "notice of intent" to retain that right. If I want my child to do something, I have to sign a permission slip. I don't have to do anything to KEEP my right to decide for my child.


Look, get off your "save the world" horse for a moment.

The Constitution specifically states that a persons rights cannot be abridged without due process. This includes parental rights. It doesn't say, unless you don't sign the form, or unless the government thinks you're doing a poor job if you don't agree with them. There is a VERY clear process for emancipating a child, and it isn't nearly as big a deal as you make it out to be. It needn't require moving out or anything else. All it really requires is proof of what you claim is obvious... that the parent isn't looking out for the welfare of the child. If it's obvious, petition the court and have an officer of the court sign the opt-in form. that is due process... as required by the constitution.

Quote:So where is the prrof that the parents aren't active? You said yourself kids won't tell their parents they're having sex... why would they tell their parents to opt them into plan b if they don't want them to think they're having sex? heck... where is the proof that parents who don't care what their kids do would for some reason say NO to this?

The proof is that they did not opt-out of this. If you're against this, then express your parental rights and opt-out. It is the responsibility of the parent to express their rights if those go against those of the state (much like schooling, faith-based medical issues, etc).

And again (please read my replies before making me restate simplistic comments), this program is designed for kids whose parents don't take an active role in their teenagers lives, and an absentee parent is hard to gain consent from. Just like the schooling, food, caring, etc of a child is the responsibility of the state if the parent does not assert their parental rights.

Quote:Because a student having sex with a teacher is often hidden from the parent. The notification of Plan B would prove the rape, but this would eliminate that notification, and let the rape continue. I don't know the specifics and it varies by state, but a 14yr old freshman with an 18yr old senior is also usually rape... and the parents may not otherwise approve of the guy.

So, we shouldn't allow this because if a teacher rapes a student, it's better that they become pregnant so the teacher gets caught? What the hell sort of convoluted logic/appeal to fear is that?

Quote: Sure. have a hearing.

That is the same as not allowing Plan B, as it is only effective for a short period of time post coitus.

Quote:?? What part of choice and responsibility do you not get? A child can't buy a firearm, even if they have ****** parents, and a parent doesn't have to do anything to buy a gun except buy a gun. they don't have to file a "notice of intent" to retain that right. If I want my child to do something, I have to sign a permission slip. I don't have to do anything to KEEP my right to decide for my child.

You absolutely and unequivocally do.

Quote:The Constitution specifically states that a persons rights cannot be abridged without due process. This includes parental rights. It doesn't say, unless you don't sign the form, or unless the government thinks you're doing a poor job if you don't agree with them. There is a VERY clear process for emancipating a child, and it isn't nearly as big a deal as you make it out to be. It needn't require moving out or anything else. All it really requires is proof of what you claim is obvious... that the parent isn't looking out for the welfare of the child. If it's obvious, petition the court and have an officer of the court sign the opt-in form. that is due process... as required by the constitution.

Minors are not chattle, they do not have all the rights afforded to adults but they do have some rights over their own health and well-being. Those can be overruled by parental rights, but they are not assumed to be, and like a child receiving blood transfusions despite their parents being JWs, the state also has a compelling interest in the childs wellbeing.

BTW, anyone truly against abortion should be for this measure, as it is a very effective way to prevent teenage abortions.

(09-25-2012 12:40 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  BTW, anyone truly against abortion should be for this measure, as it is a very effective way to prevent teenage abortions.

I love it when pro choice folks tell pro lifers what they should be for...

(09-25-2012 01:02 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(09-25-2012 12:40 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  BTW, anyone truly against abortion should be for this measure, as it is a very effective way to prevent teenage abortions.

I love it when pro choice folks tell pro lifers what they should be for...

Well, if you truly believe that abortions are murder, then infringing upon a parents medical rights to their teenager would obviously take a backseat. But please don't actually address my point, I understand that even you know my statement is absolutely true.

(09-24-2012 05:57 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Why not just tell the whole world that government has a solution to all your irresponsible behavior and be done with it?

What if it is incest? Is it the girls "irresponsible behavior"? More war on women BS from the right.

(09-24-2012 06:51 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  Perish the thought the kids get a headache and need an aspirin. How in the world can Nurses hand out medication?

Oh I forget because it let's the little animals hump all the day long we treat birth control like pez that the government should pay for..

(09-24-2012 04:50 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  New York school nurses to hand out Plan B morning after birth control pills as young as 14.



NYC schools to dispense morning-after pill without notifying parents

Published September 24, 2012 FoxNews.com

I guess it can be considered a "contraceptive" so they should be handed out the same way as a contraceptive.

"back in my days, they'd use Bayer aspirin for contraception. The gals put it between their knees and it wasn't that costly."

NYC schools to dispense morning-after pill without notifying parents (after, you know, notifying parents and letting them choose to opt out)

I guess you could pay for welfare for the mother and child for their entire lives. Time to make tough choices.

(09-24-2012 04:50 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  New York school nurses to hand out Plan B morning after birth control pills as young as 14.



NYC schools to dispense morning-after pill without notifying parents

Published September 24, 2012 FoxNews.com

Reads like "Brave New World"

(09-24-2012 04:59 PM)Max Power Wrote:  All women should be on the pill.

And Max can't help but dictate what other people should do.

(09-24-2012 09:46 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

Quote:Quit trying to medicate mine without my permission.

Deal?

If you're too personally involved, or shirk your responsibilities enough to not be aware of something like this, then you have no permission to give. Parental rights, like everything else, work both ways. I truly find it odd that I have to say this so many times.

Familiar with the term "slippery slope"?

Today, its worthless parents giving up their rights, tomorrow it's committed parents having them taken away.

"It worked so well with those other kids, let's require it for ALL kids!"

Government wants more power, not less.

I'm just FLOORED by the social conservatives that rail against the nanny state govt. intruding into their lives on one hand then with the other hand interject themselves into making FAMILY decisions FOR SOMEONE ELSE. The disconnect there ia AMAZING to me.

Do ANY of you yahoots even live in NYC?

Did any of you read that the PARENTS can opt out?

The party of state's rights is being selective again.

(09-25-2012 07:11 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I'm just FLOORED by the social conservatives that rail against the nanny state govt. intruding into their lives on one hand then with the other hand interject themselves into making FAMILY decisions FOR SOMEONE ELSE. The disconnect there ia AMAZING to me.

Example?

(09-24-2012 05:41 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(09-24-2012 05:37 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(09-24-2012 05:26 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  I'd say we have a compelling state interest in doing all we can to prevent the pregnancy of 14 year olds, but I guess I'm just old fashioned.

How is that consistent with needing parental consent to give them aspirin? Or a physical? Or a vaccination? What about beer? Cigarettes? You can't question them in a crime without their parents consent, and if they say anything, you can't use it, but you can give them hormones?

Not saying it is, and I don't really like the idea honestly, but what if the parents say no? Do you really want to force a 14 year old to carry a baby she doesn't want because her parents either don't care (likely the most applicable situation here given the state of innercity families) or say she has to?

So the only alternative to state sponsored abortion is a pregnancy? WOW.

(09-25-2012 08:22 AM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  

(09-24-2012 05:41 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(09-24-2012 05:37 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(09-24-2012 05:26 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  I'd say we have a compelling state interest in doing all we can to prevent the pregnancy of 14 year olds, but I guess I'm just old fashioned.

How is that consistent with needing parental consent to give them aspirin? Or a physical? Or a vaccination? What about beer? Cigarettes? You can't question them in a crime without their parents consent, and if they say anything, you can't use it, but you can give them hormones?

Not saying it is, and I don't really like the idea honestly, but what if the parents say no? Do you really want to force a 14 year old to carry a baby she doesn't want because her parents either don't care (likely the most applicable situation here given the state of innercity families) or say she has to?

So the only alternative to state sponsored abortion is a pregnancy? WOW.

Yikes! UCF is going into the medical profession too.

Think of anything the social cons try to legislate or interject in. The stuff the libertarians get upset with you guy's about. Gay Marriage, Mary Jane, etc etc. My personal beef is internet poker but I digress. Then you guy's go on and on about state's rights. Then this so happens to be in New York. So again, why are you complaining?

(09-25-2012 08:34 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Think of anything the social cons try to legislate or interject in. The stuff the libertarians get upset with you guy's about. Gay Marriage, Mary Jane, etc etc. My personal beef is internet poker but I digress. Then you guy's go on and on about state's rights. Then this so happens to be in New York. So again, why are you complaining?

We agree here.