(01-20-2012 03:06 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:03 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 02:56 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  Oh, absolutely culture plays a big part in our ability to succeed because it affects how we approach society (and how society then reacts to our approach).

Do we attack this at the source then? Do we then tailor education to the cultures?

No.... Asians do just fine, African Immigrants do just fine, whites are doing ok. These are very disparate cultures... They all do ok.

Right, but *SOME* cultures need a little "help", no?

Their Cultures need adjusting, not the schools.

(01-20-2012 03:09 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:06 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:03 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 02:56 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  Oh, absolutely culture plays a big part in our ability to succeed because it affects how we approach society (and how society then reacts to our approach).

Do we attack this at the source then? Do we then tailor education to the cultures?

No.... Asians do just fine, African Immigrants do just fine, whites are doing ok. These are very disparate cultures... They all do ok.

Right, but *SOME* cultures need a little "help", no?

Their Cultures need adjusting, not the schools.

kids spend ~1/2 of their waking lives in school from 5 to 18. It's probably the only 1/2 that's in a controlled environment. When else can you get that kind of captive audience?

(01-20-2012 03:12 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:09 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:06 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:03 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 02:56 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  Oh, absolutely culture plays a big part in our ability to succeed because it affects how we approach society (and how society then reacts to our approach).

Do we attack this at the source then? Do we then tailor education to the cultures?

No.... Asians do just fine, African Immigrants do just fine, whites are doing ok. These are very disparate cultures... They all do ok.

Right, but *SOME* cultures need a little "help", no?

Their Cultures need adjusting, not the schools.

kids spend ~1/2 of their waking lives in school from 5 to 18. It's probably the only 1/2 that's in a controlled environment. When else can you get that kind of captive audience?

Not seeing the point...

(01-20-2012 03:34 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:12 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:09 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:06 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:03 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  No.... Asians do just fine, African Immigrants do just fine, whites are doing ok. These are very disparate cultures... They all do ok.

Right, but *SOME* cultures need a little "help", no?

Their Cultures need adjusting, not the schools.

kids spend ~1/2 of their waking lives in school from 5 to 18. It's probably the only 1/2 that's in a controlled environment. When else can you get that kind of captive audience?

Not seeing the point...

Who is going to adjust the cultures and how?

(01-20-2012 03:35 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  Who is going to adjust the cultures and how?

This is America, that's nobodies job but the Parents / Community

(01-20-2012 03:44 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:35 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  Who is going to adjust the cultures and how?

This is America, that's nobodies job but the Parents / Community

Nobody's.

I'd argue that it's the responsibility of anyone with the ability to affect change, with the law of unintended consequences in mind.

(01-20-2012 03:48 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:44 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:35 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  Who is going to adjust the cultures and how?

This is America, that's nobodies job but the Parents / Community

Nobody's.

I'd argue that it's the responsibility of anyone with the ability to affect change, with the law of unintended consequences in mind.

It's not you're job to fix my kids..

(01-20-2012 03:48 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:44 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:35 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  Who is going to adjust the cultures and how?

This is America, that's nobodies job but the Parents / Community

Nobody's.

I'd argue that it's the responsibility of anyone with the ability to affect change, with the law of unintended consequences in mind.

Which is a very good argument against having any public schools at all.

(01-20-2012 02:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 02:44 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  Looking at any one group doesn't prove anything. You'd have to take immigrants on the whole and weight accordingly.

Why?

I'd argue that individual groups, with specifically identifiable characteristics, would mean more than glomming a bunch of various numbers together.

Quote:"When you want to help people, you tell them the truth. When you want to help yourself, you tell them what they want to hear." ---Dr. Thomas Sowell

(01-20-2012 03:53 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:48 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:44 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:35 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  Who is going to adjust the cultures and how?

This is America, that's nobodies job but the Parents / Community

Nobody's.

I'd argue that it's the responsibility of anyone with the ability to affect change, with the law of unintended consequences in mind.

It's not you're job to fix my kids..

I don't think it's my job to "fix", but I do think there's a responsibility for those in power to use their influence for good, at least to a limited amount. Would you apply your stance to foreign policy?

(01-20-2012 04:42 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:53 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:48 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:44 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:35 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  Who is going to adjust the cultures and how?

This is America, that's nobodies job but the Parents / Community

Nobody's.

I'd argue that it's the responsibility of anyone with the ability to affect change, with the law of unintended consequences in mind.

It's not you're job to fix my kids..

I don't think it's my job to "fix", but I do think there's a responsibility for those in power to use their influence for good, at least to a limited amount. Would you apply your stance to foreign policy?

"Power"
That's exactly what you don't want educators to have.
And we have too many people trying to work for "good," instead of doing their jobs.

(01-20-2012 04:55 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 04:42 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:53 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:48 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 03:44 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  This is America, that's nobodies job but the Parents / Community

Nobody's.

I'd argue that it's the responsibility of anyone with the ability to affect change, with the law of unintended consequences in mind.

It's not you're job to fix my kids..

I don't think it's my job to "fix", but I do think there's a responsibility for those in power to use their influence for good, at least to a limited amount. Would you apply your stance to foreign policy?

"Power"
That's exactly what you don't want educators to have.
And we have too many people trying to work for "good," instead of doing their jobs.

Torch, you're a libertarian through and through.

(01-19-2012 02:34 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  Charter Schools beat Public Schools for two reasons:
1) The kids in charter schools have parents that care enough about their education to jump through the hoops to get their kids into a charter school. It's a safe assumption that those same parents stay engaged in their kids education.
2) Charter schools don't have to deal with much of the bureaucracy crap that the public schools do. Part of this is because they don't have the unions to do with, part of it is because of their size.

The problem is scaling up charter schools to replace all the public schools. Both of the current advantages as outlined above would probably be lost. I'm a fan of charter schools as part of education choice. Different kids need different types of education, there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

The other problem is what do we do with the kids who have parents that don't care? I don't have an answer.

Kind of late to this discussion but I feel that I might add something to your #2.

Much of public school bureaucracy is due to one thing. The Federal government and the Dept. of Education. Whenever the feds are handing out $$$, it ALWAYS come with "strings." Most often these involve lots and lots of paperwork, reporting on compliance with the feds' regulations. Thus, the explosive growth of many if not most school districts central administration has been due to the DOEd. Bureaucracy is the end result of the federal government sticking it's nose into local education issues too much. We send a lot of $$ to D.C. and a small amount of it gets returned to the state but always with a catch.

I agree that charters should be among the mix of CHOICES for a student and his/her parents. What can be a result is that school choice and COMPETITION forces a major reform of public schools in this country. I'm not sure that I see any way to scale up charters to replace the existing public school system. At least not yet.

(01-20-2012 01:02 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 12:53 PM)RobertN Wrote:  You do realize that many of those "sorry ass parents" have little /no education themselves, right? That might have a little to do with it. Also, because those parents don't have an education, they HAVE to work 2-3 jobs just to feed their family. So is it any surprise that they might use school as a day care? But keep on preaching your superiority to everyone else.

We went over this in the head start thread..

You don't need to know advanced algebra or be literate to make sure your kids goes to school on time, respects their teachers, does their homework, and be involved with the school.

Look at the kids of immigrants, many of whom are not only illiterate (in English) but they hardly speak the language. Why do they do so well? They often work 60-80 hours a week so that excuse is out the window.

Exactly. My mother taught the 2nd grade for 31 years. She is adamant that parent involvement is the key to a child's success. The things you mention are as important as their knowledge. She always said.."If I can get the attention of these kids on a daily basis without disruptive behavior...I can teach them to their top potential." Much of her tenure as a teacher was before we coddled kids and when they acted up...they were punished and then removed from the environment. You can't do sh!t to these little monsters today and they are left in the classroom to disrupt the learning experience for everyone. In addition...there a bunch of "slow" kids in regular classes that are simply a burden to teach. That is not the way it used to be.

Spot on regarding parental involvement and I speak from experience. It is the single, largest predictor of student success.

The problem as I see it. There used to be the bare minimum to graduate. Something like 19 credits. I know for a fact kids needed 1 credit of science to graduate when I started teaching in 94. So your basic run of the mill dipshit couldn't fck up the works for 80% of the kids. In the early 2000's we went ape **** in upping standards. Every teacher needed a masters degree. Students needed 3 credits of science and 4 credits of math for a diploma. All in the name of leaving no child behind. I know the public high school that I went to in the 80's was rigrous for the upper track. If you were in advanced courses you did advanced work. If you slacked you were out of a class. Disrupting a class wasn't even in our thought process. We have it ass backwards in my humble opinion.

It isn't anyone's job to fix anyone's kids. However EVERY state constitution specifically mentions a common school funded by the state. Most saying something along these lines.... "it's the state's job to provide and fund a common school throughout the state". In Ohio the Ohio State Constitution requires the General Assembly to provide and fund "a thorough and efficient system of common schools throughout the State. Read that again. A thorough and efficient system.

Good Read.

http://camlaw.rutgers.edu/statecon/subpa...enberg.pdf

Education is undeniably one of our most important public functions and the most important function of state governments, which have primary responsibility for it. From the earliest days of the republic, some state constitutions have singled out education, sometimes alone among the many important public services provided by state government, as worthy of special recognition. Today, every state constitution contains an education provision.
This chapter draws on the long and important history and pervasiveness of education provisions in state constitutions, to explore:


How these provisions evolved over time The extent to which they seem adequate or appropriate to meet current needs
Whether there are recognized “best practices” in existing state constitutional education provisions or in the literature
How one might approach the task of developing “model” education provisions for a state constitution

(01-20-2012 06:52 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Good Read.

http://camlaw.rutgers.edu/statecon/subpa...enberg.pdf

Education is undeniably one of our most important public functions and the most important function of state governments, which have primary responsibility for it. From the earliest days of the republic,

On the contrary. This did not start in the earliest days of the republic. Public schools were not always around, and frankly that's worth recognizing.

Quote:some state constitutions have singled out education, sometimes alone among the many important public services provided by state government, as worthy of special recognition.

Hmm, by people in the business. Maybe it's time to separate schools and government...they don't coexist very well.

"Hmm, by people in the business."

No I mean the people who wrote the states' constitutions. It's a state's responsibility. You can't deny it's existence in state's constitutions AND you can't deny it's a PUBLIC responsibility.