(06-28-2011 10:44 AM)Mr. Peanut Wrote:  Given Jesus' teaching on the treatment of the poor and sick combined with the 1st century church's example of communal living with everyone pooling their resources so that there were no rich and no poor wouldn't a more apt thread title be
Are conservatives destined to burn in hell?

Yeah all we really need is the State and Government telling us what to do and how much money they will will steal so they can take of us. You know if liberals didn't abort so many of their own there might be more like you. Maybe there is a God.

(06-28-2011 10:48 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 10:14 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  

(06-27-2011 11:58 PM)G-Man Wrote:  

(06-21-2011 07:01 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  So, is there some sort of "prayer bank" of saints sitting in heaven waiting for your prayers? I'm pretty sure that Jesus is our intercessor and we don't need any other.

I'm not Catholic. However, I'm curious, what problem do you have with someone asking his Christian brother or sister to pray for him? Do you always pray directly to Jesus, or do you ever ask some Church friends or a pastor to pray for you?

And I don't believe in the infallibility of the Pope. But haven't most Protestants decided to believe some interpretation of the Bible, that they are convinced has to be 100% correct (i.e., infallible) based on their own (or someone else's within their denomination) doctrinal revelation from God? If so, can we not say that many protestants have become their own Pope?

There is Biblical examples of people getting together and praying for each other. My problem is having someone whose body is dead and soul is no longer on Earth pray for you. That is not Biblical, nor does it make sense. Again I ask, are they just sitting around in heaven waiting for your prayers? Are the saints suddently Omnipresent and Omniscient?


And no, I don't know of any protestant that beleives they are infallible or their own pope? If we are infallible, we would not need a saviour.

Christians believe that there are insurmountable barriers between heaven and earth that our physical bodies cannot get through, and our five senses cannot detect. However, aren't we supposed to be connected to the church spiritually, which means that we have connections to God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), Angels and Saints?

This is what I find extremely odd about fundamentalist belief. Among the fundamentalists, their common belief is that the church is more than just a building, it's more than people attending a mass/service and it's more than merely applying a label to you. Being a member of the church is supposed to be who you are as a Christian. It's supposed to be the foundation for your entire life, because being a Christian is all about your relationship to God and your relationship to the people in your life. To state that spiritual links are severed by death means that the Church on earth is purely physical, and that it is nothing more than structures and property. Christians living immediately after the Ascension and within the first couple of centuries did not hold the belief that believers who died in Christ are severed from the Christians on earth. They held to the belief that the Church is both visible and invisible. It is the physical members on earth and the departed members with the Lord.

Our connection with the rest of the "Church" is not through out spirit, but the Holy Spirit which lives within us. Once again, I know of no Biblical examples (New Testament) of people of praying to anyone other than Jesus, who intercedes on our behalf. Are the "Saints" just waiting around for your petitions?

I guess you decided to drop the infallible argument?

(06-28-2011 10:44 AM)Mr. Peanut Wrote:  Given Jesus' teaching on the treatment of the poor and sick combined with the 1st century church's example of communal living with everyone pooling their resources so that there were no rich and no poor wouldn't a more apt thread title be
Are conservatives destined to burn in hell?

Liberals are a silly lot.

On the one hand, they go on about their fallacious separation of Church and State, on the other, they insist the State do Gods work.

(06-28-2011 11:11 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 10:48 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 10:14 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  

(06-27-2011 11:58 PM)G-Man Wrote:  

(06-21-2011 07:01 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  So, is there some sort of "prayer bank" of saints sitting in heaven waiting for your prayers? I'm pretty sure that Jesus is our intercessor and we don't need any other.

I'm not Catholic. However, I'm curious, what problem do you have with someone asking his Christian brother or sister to pray for him? Do you always pray directly to Jesus, or do you ever ask some Church friends or a pastor to pray for you?

And I don't believe in the infallibility of the Pope. But haven't most Protestants decided to believe some interpretation of the Bible, that they are convinced has to be 100% correct (i.e., infallible) based on their own (or someone else's within their denomination) doctrinal revelation from God? If so, can we not say that many protestants have become their own Pope?

There is Biblical examples of people getting together and praying for each other. My problem is having someone whose body is dead and soul is no longer on Earth pray for you. That is not Biblical, nor does it make sense. Again I ask, are they just sitting around in heaven waiting for your prayers? Are the saints suddently Omnipresent and Omniscient?


And no, I don't know of any protestant that beleives they are infallible or their own pope? If we are infallible, we would not need a saviour.

Christians believe that there are insurmountable barriers between heaven and earth that our physical bodies cannot get through, and our five senses cannot detect. However, aren't we supposed to be connected to the church spiritually, which means that we have connections to God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), Angels and Saints?

This is what I find extremely odd about fundamentalist belief. Among the fundamentalists, their common belief is that the church is more than just a building, it's more than people attending a mass/service and it's more than merely applying a label to you. Being a member of the church is supposed to be who you are as a Christian. It's supposed to be the foundation for your entire life, because being a Christian is all about your relationship to God and your relationship to the people in your life. To state that spiritual links are severed by death means that the Church on earth is purely physical, and that it is nothing more than structures and property. Christians living immediately after the Ascension and within the first couple of centuries did not hold the belief that believers who died in Christ are severed from the Christians on earth. They held to the belief that the Church is both visible and invisible. It is the physical members on earth and the departed members with the Lord.

Our connection with the rest of the "Church" is not through out spirit, but the Holy Spirit which lives within us. Once again, I know of no Biblical examples (New Testament) of people of praying to anyone other than Jesus, who intercedes on our behalf. Are the "Saints" just waiting around for your petitions?

I guess you decided to drop the infallible argument?

You are putting words in my mouth. We are connected spiritually through God. The earliest Christians believed that Christians on earth can ask for the prayers of the saints and angels.

No, I did not drop the infallible argument. The concept of apostolic succession and the elevation of Peter is contained within the Gospels and the Epistles. However, you have to shoehorn an argument to justify the idea that there is no succession within the Church - like the petros/petras "justification" that fundies try to pass off.

So what came first, the Church or the bible? Also, is the bible an instruction book or a guide book? How did the early Church know which books should be included in the bible? Finally, what did the first century Christians believe regarding apostolic succession and the Eucharist? You won't like the answers. The bottom line is that many fundamentalists become popes unto themselves. They read the bible and interpret the meanings in their own way. You've spoke ex cathedra about what I need to keep and what I should throw away from by beliefs in order to be saved.

Miko - What came first the Church or the Bible? Here is a hint, "In the beginning the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". John 1:1

(06-28-2011 01:05 PM)NIU05 Wrote:  Miko - What came first the Church or the Bible? Here is a hint, "In the beginning the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". John 1:1

Please don't tell me you are saying the bible came before the Church. This bible verse is not referring to the books of the bible.

(06-28-2011 11:53 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 11:11 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 10:48 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 10:14 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  

(06-27-2011 11:58 PM)G-Man Wrote:  I'm not Catholic. However, I'm curious, what problem do you have with someone asking his Christian brother or sister to pray for him? Do you always pray directly to Jesus, or do you ever ask some Church friends or a pastor to pray for you?

And I don't believe in the infallibility of the Pope. But haven't most Protestants decided to believe some interpretation of the Bible, that they are convinced has to be 100% correct (i.e., infallible) based on their own (or someone else's within their denomination) doctrinal revelation from God? If so, can we not say that many protestants have become their own Pope?

There is Biblical examples of people getting together and praying for each other. My problem is having someone whose body is dead and soul is no longer on Earth pray for you. That is not Biblical, nor does it make sense. Again I ask, are they just sitting around in heaven waiting for your prayers? Are the saints suddently Omnipresent and Omniscient?


And no, I don't know of any protestant that beleives they are infallible or their own pope? If we are infallible, we would not need a saviour.

Christians believe that there are insurmountable barriers between heaven and earth that our physical bodies cannot get through, and our five senses cannot detect. However, aren't we supposed to be connected to the church spiritually, which means that we have connections to God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), Angels and Saints?

This is what I find extremely odd about fundamentalist belief. Among the fundamentalists, their common belief is that the church is more than just a building, it's more than people attending a mass/service and it's more than merely applying a label to you. Being a member of the church is supposed to be who you are as a Christian. It's supposed to be the foundation for your entire life, because being a Christian is all about your relationship to God and your relationship to the people in your life. To state that spiritual links are severed by death means that the Church on earth is purely physical, and that it is nothing more than structures and property. Christians living immediately after the Ascension and within the first couple of centuries did not hold the belief that believers who died in Christ are severed from the Christians on earth. They held to the belief that the Church is both visible and invisible. It is the physical members on earth and the departed members with the Lord.

Our connection with the rest of the "Church" is not through out spirit, but the Holy Spirit which lives within us. Once again, I know of no Biblical examples (New Testament) of people of praying to anyone other than Jesus, who intercedes on our behalf. Are the "Saints" just waiting around for your petitions?

I guess you decided to drop the infallible argument?

You are putting words in my mouth. We are connected spiritually through God. The earliest Christians believed that Christians on earth can ask for the prayers of the saints and angels.

No, I did not drop the infallible argument. The concept of apostolic succession and the elevation of Peter is contained within the Gospels and the Epistles. However, you have to shoehorn an argument to justify the idea that there is no succession within the Church - like the petros/petras "justification" that fundies try to pass off.

So what came first, the Church or the bible? Also, is the bible an instruction book or a guide book? How did the early Church know which books should be included in the bible? Finally, what did the first century Christians believe regarding apostolic succession and the Eucharist? You won't like the answers. The bottom line is that many fundamentalists become popes unto themselves. They read the bible and interpret the meanings in their own way. You've spoke ex cathedra about what I need to keep and what I should throw away from by beliefs in order to be saved.

I still ask, show me the examples of praying to the Saints. I'm curious if there are any, as I have never noticed them. Once you clear that argument, we can move on to your other issues.

And don't say that I have said you need to throw something away for salvation, as I don't beleive I have said anything of the sort. Only God knows your heart. If you truly want to have a discussion, lets look at things item by item and not just throw a bunch of talking points at each other.

I'm not sure how I missed this thread earlier but I will go ahead and chime in with my two cents:

The Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that was instituted by Jesus Christ with these words from the Gospel of Matthew:

"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

This authority and responsibility was later extended to the rest of the apostles in Matthew 18:18 and passed on to their successors through the laying on of hands described in the Acts of the Apostles. It continues through today with every Catholic and Orthodox bishop being created in the same manner. An example of this Apostolic Succession can be seen in the current Pope who is the 265th Bishop of Rome.

List of Popes

As for salvation, Catholics and Protestants are in agreement that salvation comes through the grace of God as is laid out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"

And also in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification created by Catholics and Lutherans and agreed with by the World Council of Churches:

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

But because The Church was instituted by Jesus Christ, those that reject the Church are also, at least in part, reject Jesus Christ. Again from the Catechism:

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

So now this brings us to the real question that should have been asked in the first place, Are non-Catholics destined to burn in hell? And the good news is not necessarily. The CCC continues:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

But without the Rock of Saint Peter as the foundation of the Church, Protestants will continue to led astray into Apostasy as we have seen in nearly all of the mainline Protestant Churches. With Christianity facing the duel threats of radical secularism and radical Islam, it is time for Christianity to once again present a united front as we did for the first 1000 years of Christian history. It is time for all Christians to come home to Rome.

Still waiting on the whole Praying to the Saints thing....then we can start going through the other talking points.

(06-28-2011 06:50 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  I'm not sure how I missed this thread earlier but I will go ahead and chime in with my two cents:

The Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that was instituted by Jesus Christ with these words from the Gospel of Matthew:

"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

This authority and responsibility was later extended to the rest of the apostles in Matthew 18:18 and passed on to their successors through the laying on of hands described in the Acts of the Apostles. It continues through today with every Catholic and Orthodox bishop being created in the same manner. An example of this Apostolic Succession can be seen in the current Pope who is the 265th Bishop of Rome.

List of Popes

As for salvation, Catholics and Protestants are in agreement that salvation comes through the grace of God as is laid out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"

And also in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification created by Catholics and Lutherans and agreed with by the World Council of Churches:

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

But because The Church was instituted by Jesus Christ, those that reject the Church are also, at least in part, reject Jesus Christ. Again from the Catechism:

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

So now this brings us to the real question that should have been asked in the first place, Are non-Catholics destined to burn in hell? And the good news is not necessarily. The CCC continues:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

But without the Rock of Saint Peter as the foundation of the Church, Protestants will continue to led astray into Apostasy as we have seen in nearly all of the mainline Protestant Churches. With Christianity facing the duel threats of radical secularism and radical Islam, it is time for Christianity to once again present a united front as we did for the first 1000 years of Christian history. It is time for all Christians to come home to Rome.

Know Nothing, I like your moniker.

.

(06-28-2011 06:57 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Still waiting on the whole Praying to the Saints thing....then we can start going through the other talking points.

Catholics do not pray to the saints. We ask the saints to pray for us(intercession is the term we use) to God in the same way you might ask your friends, family members, or fellow church members to pray for you.

Both are pointless.

(06-28-2011 06:57 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Still waiting on the whole Praying to the Saints thing....then we can start going through the other talking points.

The fundamentalist view of Catholics is much like the conservative view of liberals... a caricature

(06-28-2011 07:59 PM)Mr. Peanut Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 06:57 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Still waiting on the whole Praying to the Saints thing....then we can start going through the other talking points.

The fundamentalist view of Catholics is much like the conservative view of liberals... a caricature

That's not true. Just because the insidious Jerry Fallwell hitched his wagon to conservative Republicans, it does not mean that all evangelicals and fundamentalists are conservative. A lot of them are conservative on social issues, but if you dig a little deeper you find out that many of them are not nearly as conservative when it comes to financial issues.

(06-28-2011 07:34 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 06:57 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Still waiting on the whole Praying to the Saints thing....then we can start going through the other talking points.

Catholics do not pray to the saints. We ask the saints to pray for us(intercession is the term we use) to God in the same way you might ask your friends, family members, or fellow church members to pray for you.

True, Catholics do not pray to saints. The Graybeard did not care for that answer when I gave it to him earlier, and he believes that once you die, you are severed from the rest of believers who are still on earth. He does not believe that the Church is composed of the living who abide in Christ and those who have died in Christ.

What many Christians fail to grasp is that Jesus did not come to earth to write/edit the bible, but he came to build His Church. Yes Christ died for our sins, and we can have his salvation, but his salvation is through His Church (His words written plainly in the bible). The bible was made by The Church that Christ established here on earth. The reverse is not the case, and too many people have built their church upon the bible. That's backwards, because the bible was created by The Church.

There are no bible verses - aside from the books of Macabees that you reject - that directly point to asking the saints for their prayers. But there are other things that we do that is not directly stated in the bible, but Fundamentalists, Evangelicals and Reformation Protestants take them for granted. Show me in the bible where it says that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the only 4 Gospels that should be contained within the New Testament.

(06-22-2011 08:24 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(06-22-2011 07:41 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(06-22-2011 07:27 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(06-22-2011 07:00 AM)Smaug Wrote:  I view my role as a Christian as pretty straightforward: Love God. Love my neighbor. Let God sort out the details.

That works for me.

I find it hard to grasp that ANY person of ANY faith that is a good neighbor could burn in damnation.

IS 64:6 - All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

That is why we need Christ because the human measure for 'good' just won't cut it...

If the threat and fear of Hell makes one a better person then that is fine with me.

so you're a good person because you're afraid of going to Hell?

shouldn't you be a good person just because? I never did understand all this fear of God stuff. I'm a decent, I hope, person because I want to be and not because I'm afraid of going to Hell if I don't.

Jesus gave us two commandments-love God and love your neighbor. I think those pretty much cover everything.

(06-28-2011 08:41 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 07:34 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 06:57 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Still waiting on the whole Praying to the Saints thing....then we can start going through the other talking points.

Catholics do not pray to the saints. We ask the saints to pray for us(intercession is the term we use) to God in the same way you might ask your friends, family members, or fellow church members to pray for you.

True, Catholics do not pray to saints. The Graybeard did not care for that answer when I gave it to him earlier, and he believes that once you die, you are severed from the rest of believers who are still on earth. He does not believe that the Church is composed of the living who abide in Christ and those who have died in Christ.

What many Christians fail to grasp is that Jesus did not come to earth to write/edit the bible, but he came to build His Church. Yes Christ died for our sins, and we can have his salvation, but his salvation is through His Church (His words written plainly in the bible). The bible was made by The Church that Christ established here on earth. The reverse is not the case, and too many people have built their church upon the bible. That's backwards, because the bible was created by The Church.

There are no bible verses - aside from the books of Macabees that you reject - that directly point to asking the saints for their prayers. But there are other things that we do that is not directly stated in the bible, but Fundamentalists, Evangelicals and Reformation Protestants take them for granted. Show me in the bible where it says that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the only 4 Gospels that should be contained within the New Testament.

PLEASE STOP> Salvation is NOT thru any church it is thru Christ and Christ alone. Christians can only be saved by Christ there is no other way.

The Bible was not made by the Church, 2nd Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching" That means man did NOT create scripture, God decided - not a church not a man. ..... Jesus first teaching from Mathew 4:1 quoting from the Old Testament, "'Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" This is BASIC Christianity.

BTW, every church in the world share one problem. They are all run by SINFUL man. No church has ever been run by any individual or group of individuals that were not sinners. That is why we can not hold allegiance to any church or man, but only to Christ and Christ alone.

(06-28-2011 10:20 PM)NIU05 Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 08:41 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 07:34 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 06:57 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Still waiting on the whole Praying to the Saints thing....then we can start going through the other talking points.

Catholics do not pray to the saints. We ask the saints to pray for us(intercession is the term we use) to God in the same way you might ask your friends, family members, or fellow church members to pray for you.

True, Catholics do not pray to saints. The Graybeard did not care for that answer when I gave it to him earlier, and he believes that once you die, you are severed from the rest of believers who are still on earth. He does not believe that the Church is composed of the living who abide in Christ and those who have died in Christ.

What many Christians fail to grasp is that Jesus did not come to earth to write/edit the bible, but he came to build His Church. Yes Christ died for our sins, and we can have his salvation, but his salvation is through His Church (His words written plainly in the bible). The bible was made by The Church that Christ established here on earth. The reverse is not the case, and too many people have built their church upon the bible. That's backwards, because the bible was created by The Church.

There are no bible verses - aside from the books of Macabees that you reject - that directly point to asking the saints for their prayers. But there are other things that we do that is not directly stated in the bible, but Fundamentalists, Evangelicals and Reformation Protestants take them for granted. Show me in the bible where it says that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the only 4 Gospels that should be contained within the New Testament.

PLEASE STOP> Salvation is NOT thru any church it is thru Christ and Christ alone. Christians can only be saved by Christ there is no other way.

The Bible was not made by the Church, 2nd Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching" That means man did NOT create scripture, God decided - not a church not a man. ..... Jesus first teaching from Mathew 4:1 quoting from the Old Testament, "'Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" This is BASIC Christianity.

BTW, every church in the world share one problem. They are all run by SINFUL man. No church has ever been run by any individual or group of individuals that were not sinners. That is why we can not hold allegiance to any church or man, but only to Christ and Christ alone.

I give up arguing with them when Catholics consider the Medicis, the mafia of their day, to be part of Apostolic succession...

(06-28-2011 10:20 PM)NIU05 Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 08:41 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 07:34 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 06:57 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Still waiting on the whole Praying to the Saints thing....then we can start going through the other talking points.

Catholics do not pray to the saints. We ask the saints to pray for us(intercession is the term we use) to God in the same way you might ask your friends, family members, or fellow church members to pray for you.

True, Catholics do not pray to saints. The Graybeard did not care for that answer when I gave it to him earlier, and he believes that once you die, you are severed from the rest of believers who are still on earth. He does not believe that the Church is composed of the living who abide in Christ and those who have died in Christ.

What many Christians fail to grasp is that Jesus did not come to earth to write/edit the bible, but he came to build His Church. Yes Christ died for our sins, and we can have his salvation, but his salvation is through His Church (His words written plainly in the bible). The bible was made by The Church that Christ established here on earth. The reverse is not the case, and too many people have built their church upon the bible. That's backwards, because the bible was created by The Church.

There are no bible verses - aside from the books of Macabees that you reject - that directly point to asking the saints for their prayers. But there are other things that we do that is not directly stated in the bible, but Fundamentalists, Evangelicals and Reformation Protestants take them for granted. Show me in the bible where it says that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the only 4 Gospels that should be contained within the New Testament.

PLEASE STOP> Salvation is NOT thru any church it is thru Christ and Christ alone. Christians can only be saved by Christ there is no other way.

The Bible was not made by the Church, 2nd Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching" That means man did NOT create scripture, God decided - not a church not a man. ..... Jesus first teaching from Mathew 4:1 quoting from the Old Testament, "'Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" This is BASIC Christianity.

BTW, every church in the world share one problem. They are all run by SINFUL man. No church has ever been run by any individual or group of individuals that were not sinners. That is why we can not hold allegiance to any church or man, but only to Christ and Christ alone.

1) True, salvation is through Christ. However, Christ did build a Church:

Quote:Matthew 16:18

Viewing the 1769 King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Matthew 16:18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

- 1769 Oxford King James Bible 'Authorized Version

We can agree that everything Jesus did on earth had a purpose - it was done for a reason. So when Christ built His Church, what was the purpose of it? It is a place for Christians to work together and to become members of the faith community i.e. His Church. You can be a member of a church and not be saved, but you can't be saved without being a member of the body of Christ (His Church).

2) Scripture was created by God working through man. However, the collection of scripture that we have today was created by the Church. In mere decades after Christ's ascension, there were hundreds - if not thousands - of scripture floating around throughout all of the faith communities in Palestine, Greece and Asia Minor. Many of these books were determined to be not part of sacred scripture. So how did you get the bible in the form you use today? Why doesn't you bible have the "Apocalypse of Peter" or the "Gospel of Thomas"? It because of the Church that you have your bible and why you have 27 books in your New Testament Cannon.

3) You are right, sinful man run the Churches we have today. But, God used sinful men to be in charge of his people and his Church. He used sinful Moses to be the leader of the Israelites coming out of Egypt. He put his apostles in charge of his Church. So even though there were true scoundrels in charge of the Catholic Church during the middle ages, it is not different from any other time when God used sinners to give us his message and to continue his work on earth. So when Christ left the earth, did all of those believers go their separate ways because it was just "me and Jesus" now? Did the first century Christians collect scripture for themselves to find their own way with the Holy Spirit, Jesus and the bible? No, of course not. They built their own communities, worshiped together, and looked to the apostles for guidance and direction. Before the apostles died, they chose successors to lead them through the "laying of the hands". Also, the apostles set up local leaders to lead the growing number of faith communities through the "laying of the hands". They imparted their authority on successors - authority given to them through Christ Himself. This is how the Church operated back then, and there are only a handful of denominations that still work this way today. It's in the bible (Acts and the Epistles), and these ideas are also in the writings of the immediate successors to the apostles throughout the first several centuries of the Church (Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, etc). This is the history of your roots. You can't change what happened no matter how hard you try to wish it away. It is what it is.

Alexis de Tocqueville the French sociologist, wrote in 1835 that the strength in America was in her churches.

Today America's problems are not Democrats and Republicans or liberal and conservatives, it is her churches. Our churches are WEAK. They can not even be relied upon to express basic Judea Christian theology. We have many churches that knowingly,willingly and viciously hide known deviant activity. It is the right of all Christians to eat of the Living bread, they should not be starved to death. Where there is no bread they must change, move and adapt to those churches that will feed HIS people.

Find a bible based church and do not allow you or your family to starve to death.