(04-26-2011 04:03 PM)HuskieFan84 Wrote:  Clearly the Republicans didn't find anything though. That's my point. I'm sorry, even as a liberal, I have far too much respect for the GOP and conservatives in general to think they wouldn't have done something if they found out he wasn't an American citizen or there were uncertainties with his school history.

Who do you guys keep talking to about this? You don't seem to be addressing anyone on this board, but some phantom "republican leaders".

Rather than question why Republicans haven't been able to break the law and sneak a copy of his records out, why aren't you asking him why he won't voluntarily release them? That's a silly argument.

I MIGHT expect a politician to "fall on his sword" and risk jail time if they broke into the state of Hawaii department of Records and stole the cert and it showed he wasn't born here... in which case, you wouldn't find it at all.... But I wouldn't expect someone to willingly go to jail because he wasn't as good a student as he claims or that Ayers funded his college.

Quote:To your second point, first of all.. how is it relevant how intelligent he is? Talk about a subject change there.

The issue is release of documents. The primary (and customary)documents are birth certificate and school records. There's no subject change here at all.

Quote:His decision making led to him becoming the POTUS, rising from basically nothing (even more impressive, if not terrible, if he is some Kenyan, Muslim, mind you).

For someone who was "nothing" an awful lot of politicians were apparently close with his mother and grandmother when he was born. I'm thinking his "humble" beginnings are overblown.

Whether this whole thing is to meant to "out" the President as a non-citizen/muslim/remedial learner/cat juggler or simply "raise important questions" I don't know. I'll put a few bucks on the book being inconclusive and/or full of holes. If any of these folks can produce a smoking gun I'll be thrilled if it leads to this being a one term presidency. But I'm now genuinely worried that the preoccupation with it will not only solidify Obama's base but will also turn off a substantial portion of the moderate/independent crowd (like me!). Because the longer we go without that smoking gun the more this episode will make the right look like complete crackpots. That destruction of credibility will impact the ability to persuade on more substantial topics like economy, stimuli, Obamacare, Libya, etc.

I'd agree Brookes, except that I can't imagine there are many in the middle "happy" with what he's done as President. The fiscal conservative liberals as well as the socially liberal conservatives have all been disappointed. The question NOW is, do you like what the other party has to offer any better or do you just stay home?

The only reason this birther BS is still making the rounds is, deep down, conservatives know they can't beat Obama in the general election in 2012 so they hope to have him thrown out on a technicality--which unfortunately for them, does not exist.

Cain wins the primary he's going to wipe the floor with that big-eared f***.

(04-26-2011 09:55 PM)TOGC Wrote:  The only reason this birther BS is still making the rounds is, deep down, conservatives know they can't beat Obama in the general election in 2012...

Oh, I thought it was still around because he hasn't produced a birth certificate. Silly me.

I think he was born in Hawaii. He's just trying to hide something else. Something on that document is damning, I just don't think it's where he was born.

Even if he wasn't born in Hawaii, I think that "natural born citizen" is vague enough that it could include a parent as a citizen. It is a waste of time to pursue this, unless Obama stumbles over this. I don't see that happening after 3 years of fending off attacks.

This is stuff that if it were going to be an issue, 2008 was the time. I could care less about the birth certificate, because I think he meets the "natural born citizen" requirement even if he was born on the moon.

I think what's going on may be something like this. There's something somewhere that they don't want to see the light of day. If they hide just one thing, like the birth certificate, then it's obvious where the problem is. So you hide everything and make them look for the needle in a haystack. And as long as they're looking in the wrong place, you keep encouraging them to look more. I'm quite offended that so much that is typically disclosed was not in this case, but that was an issue for 2008 when nobody knew who he was. Now he has a record, and that defines him better than his birth certificate or university records.

He has pretty much taken the leftmost possible position on every issue, compromising only the minimal amount necessary to get the votes for passage. That Obamacare is not more socialized results not because Obama is not a socialist, but because the blue dogs aren't, and he could not get it passed without their votes. I think the economy is going to be worse in 2012 than it is today, and if that's the case then that will be his undoing. If the republicans have to look to his past to find ways to beat him, when his present is going to be pretty undistinguished, then they have more problems than we know.

You folks keep changing your story every time you get called on your BS. Give it a rest already.

(04-26-2011 12:23 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/04/ridin...razor.html

That's among the worst articles I've seen from voxday.

voxday Wrote:Consider the two primary logical possibilities:

A) Obama is eligible and is hiding the evidence of his eligibility because questioning his eligibility makes his opponents look bad.

B) Obama is not eligible and is hiding the evidence of it because it proves he is not eligible.

Which makes more logical sense, especially in light of the fact that questioning his eligibility has now produced a #1 best-selling book and propelled a celebrity to an early pole position in the Republican primary? The logic of (A) doesn't stand because its foundation is flawed. Questioning his eligibility actually makes his opponents more successful and popular. Therefore, Obama is either wildly inept in not releasing the information or he simply cannot afford to release it as per (B).

The weasel-words don't really change the fact that he's relying on a false dichotomy and then making an invalid conclusion about one option to steer the reader towards his favored assertion. Appealing to the fringe may lead to more popularity among the fringe of the GOP that Obama never had to worry about when it comes to the general election. But, that popularity doesn't help in the general election when it alienates most people in the political center that are required to win in the general election.

The truth in this case may be complicated. It may pay to start in the psychology of pathological liars and why they will hang on to a lie until it consumes their lives. It seems likely to me that he is not hiding anything on the birth certificate. But, if he sets the precedent on reversing his decision on something harmless, it would look conspicuous when he hits something that he can't disclose.

(04-25-2011 11:26 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  and stop alluding to totally disproven theories (Like Ayers writing his book)

Quote:"Everything was absolutely ideal on the day I bombed the Pentagon. The sky was blue. The birds were singing. And the bastards were finally going to get what was coming to them." Bill Ayers

Great prose style. You can see why his next book, Dreams from My Father, sold so well...

Obama to show his birth certificate in 45 minutes. Hopefully he's not going to pull a fast one that the press will go along with again and just show the same COLB we've already seen.

(04-26-2011 09:55 PM)TOGC Wrote:  The only reason this birther BS is still making the rounds is, deep down, conservatives know they can't beat Obama in the general election in 2012 so they hope to have him thrown out on a technicality--which unfortunately for them, does not exist.

LOL!! The level of delusion it takes to really believe that is amazing.

The guy has a 44% approval rating. The economy is in the sh!tter, the majority doesn't want his healthcare bill and his party was routed in 2010 because of his policies. This does not smack of an unbeatable candidate.

But you go with it.

(04-26-2011 05:05 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(04-26-2011 04:03 PM)HuskieFan84 Wrote:  Clearly the Republicans didn't find anything though. That's my point. I'm sorry, even as a liberal, I have far too much respect for the GOP and conservatives in general to think they wouldn't have done something if they found out he wasn't an American citizen or there were uncertainties with his school history.

Who do you guys keep talking to about this? You don't seem to be addressing anyone on this board, but some phantom "republican leaders".

Why.. because that's the party you're supporting. They clearly don't think actually think he's not an American citizen, or they would have done something about it.

I see no reason for him to release the documents. It brings out the fringe right wing and helps his chances to get reelected, what kind of politician would he be if he did release them?

And this tired argument, "well others have released them," well of course they have, dumb***, they had nothing to gain by hiding them. No one was arguing that George W. Bush was born in Kenya. There were no fringe liberals making the left look crazy by saying he's a Kenyan, Muslim. (They have Michael Moore and 9/11 for that).

I've seen nothing to believe he's not an American Citizen, and nothing has been shown to me that would suggest he didn't do well in school.



Innocent until proven guilty. And the party birthers support, has had chances time and time again to do something about it if they really took this seriously. They pander to their base at townhalls and on the road, but when it comes down it, no serious politician actually believes this, or wastes their time on it, that's my point. Silly conspiracies are for the Donald Trump's, Michael Moore's and Glenn Beck's of the world, not real politicians.

Look at the leadership of the GOP part, they don't believe it. And if they do, then they've failed miserably as a party. Which is it? Personally, I find it hard to believe Republicans have just decided to let a Kenyan run the country, so that leaves me with the second option, he's rightfully the president.

And if Republicans haven't done anything about it, the people with the most money, resources and incentive to do so, then why in the hell would I believe some hack like Donald Trump over legitimate sources? If Republicans haven't done anything about it, it's because there is nothing there. They're fine with it energizing the lunatic fringe, but clearly they don't actually take it seriously. Look at their actions.

That's my point here, and that's why I keep bring them up. These are the people who would and could do something about it if there actually was a problem. Since it's obvious they haven't, put two and two together.

(04-26-2011 02:23 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I agree he should have kept them...but what would they entail anyway? A bunch of letters from constituents? What would that prove or serve to vet him in anyway?

It's a safe bet there was much more than that in the records. There would be memos written by himself to other senators, letters from and too him not just from constituents but from lobbyists and special interest groups. They would provide insight into how he executed his office.

Quote:And there was no law that he had to keep anything was there?

It's not about a law requiring it. It's about a pattern that Obama has displayed to be a guy with no paper trail. Won't release his college papers or transcripts, unlike all other past presidential candidates, can't find his state Senate papers, votes "Present" more than he votes yes/no. All of it adds up to a guy who doesn't want people to know who he really is, rather he wants people to know what he tells them he is. Yes, politically it's great, especially when the media will aid him in the effort by refusing to go after those things. But it's a luxury no republican candidate would ever be afforded.

Quote:Anything he did in the state senate would have been recorded and in the public record I would imagine.

Any vote, sure. but that's it.

(04-27-2011 09:25 AM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  

(04-26-2011 02:23 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I agree he should have kept them...but what would they entail anyway? A bunch of letters from constituents? What would that prove or serve to vet him in anyway?

It's a safe bet there was much more than that in the records. There would be memos written by himself to other senators, letters from and too him not just from constituents but from lobbyists and special interest groups. They would provide insight into how he executed his office.

Quote:And there was no law that he had to keep anything was there?

It's not about a law requiring it. It's about a pattern that Obama has displayed to be a guy with no paper trail. Won't release his college papers or transcripts, unlike all other past presidential candidates, can't find his state Senate papers, votes "Present" more than he votes yes/no. All of it adds up to a guy who doesn't want people to know who he really is, rather he wants people to know what he tells them he is. Yes, politically it's great, especially when the media will aid him in the effort by refusing to go after those things. But it's a luxury no republican candidate would ever be afforded.

Quote:Anything he did in the state senate would have been recorded and in the public record I would imagine.

Any vote, sure. but that's it.

Lots of "present" votes were recorded.

(04-27-2011 09:21 AM)HuskieFan84 Wrote:  

(04-26-2011 05:05 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(04-26-2011 04:03 PM)HuskieFan84 Wrote:  Clearly the Republicans didn't find anything though. That's my point. I'm sorry, even as a liberal, I have far too much respect for the GOP and conservatives in general to think they wouldn't have done something if they found out he wasn't an American citizen or there were uncertainties with his school history.

Who do you guys keep talking to about this? You don't seem to be addressing anyone on this board, but some phantom "republican leaders".

Why.. because that's the party you're supporting. They clearly don't think actually think he's not an American citizen, or they would have done something about it.

I see no reason for him to release the documents. It brings out the fringe right wing and helps his chances to get reelected, what kind of politician would he be if he did release them?

And this tired argument, "well others have released them," well of course they have, dumb***, they had nothing to gain by hiding them. No one was arguing that George W. Bush was born in Kenya. There were no fringe liberals making the left look crazy by saying he's a Kenyan, Muslim. (They have Michael Moore and 9/11 for that).

I've seen nothing to believe he's not an American Citizen, and nothing has been shown to me that would suggest he didn't do well in school.



Innocent until proven guilty. And the party birthers support, has had chances time and time again to do something about it if they really took this seriously. They pander to their base at townhalls and on the road, but when it comes down it, no serious politician actually believes this, or wastes their time on it, that's my point. Silly conspiracies are for the Donald Trump's, Michael Moore's and Glenn Beck's of the world, not real politicians.

Look at the leadership of the GOP part, they don't believe it. And if they do, then they've failed miserably as a party. Which is it? Personally, I find it hard to believe Republicans have just decided to let a Kenyan run the country, so that leaves me with the second option, he's rightfully the president.

And if Republicans haven't done anything about it, the people with the most money, resources and incentive to do so, then why in the hell would I believe some hack like Donald Trump over legitimate sources? If Republicans haven't done anything about it, it's because there is nothing there. They're fine with it energizing the lunatic fringe, but clearly they don't actually take it seriously. Look at their actions.

That's my point here, and that's why I keep bring them up. These are the people who would and could do something about it if there actually was a problem. Since it's obvious they haven't, put two and two together.

15 states are drafting resolutions to require LFBC, for a candidate to be plced on the ballot in 2012. But hay, that not action enough for you. Keep it up the quagmire only gets deeper. Echos from the past, 'I'm Not a Crook'. he's just showing exactly what a sleazebag scumrag he really is.

Sum, you do realize that will do nothing to keep Obama from being the POTUS. Right?

Like I've said repeatedly, the GOP is happy to say or do whatever they can to energize the base, but they'd never actually make this a serious issue that has any repercussions to Obama's presidency. They know that'd blow up in their face, they aren't stupid.

(04-27-2011 09:30 AM)HuskieFan84 Wrote:  Sum, you do realize that will do nothing to keep Obama from being the POTUS. Right?

Like I've said repeatedly, the GOP is happy to say or do whatever they can to energize the base, but they'd never actually make this a serious issue that has any repercussions to Obama's presidency. They know that'd blow up in their face, they aren't stupid.

If he's not on the ballot in a state with a large electoral college votes, he loses.

And yes they all are stupid. I place before you Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, BO, San Francisco ect, ect..... Start defending.

GOP members didn't elect Nancy Pelosi. With the birth certificate out now, I think you can understand why the GOP would never have made this a serious issue. They are well connected enough, and have enough resources to have determined if he was actually eligible for the presidency. Clearly they didn't consider it a problem, or they would have done something about it.

(04-27-2011 08:50 AM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  

(04-26-2011 09:55 PM)TOGC Wrote:  The only reason this birther BS is still making the rounds is, deep down, conservatives know they can't beat Obama in the general election in 2012 so they hope to have him thrown out on a technicality--which unfortunately for them, does not exist.

LOL!! The level of delusion it takes to really believe that is amazing.

The guy has a 44% approval rating. The economy is in the sh!tter, the majority doesn't want his healthcare bill and his party was routed in 2010 because of his policies. This does not smack of an unbeatable candidate

But you go with it.

You're the delusional one. The guy had a 49% approval rating from a Fox News poll earlier this month, and they're some of his biggest detractors.

Unemployment has dropped from 10.1% in October 2009 to 8.8% in March. The DJIA bottomed out at 6500 in March 2009 and it currently sits at 12634 today.

As for the healthcare bill, the majority want to tweak it not kill it.

And the incumbent has a huge advantage over the challenger. Obama has cash to spare from his first campaign, and he doesn't have any challengers for his party's nomination. The Republicans have to duke it out with each other, which costs a ton, and then against the POTUS, which costs even more.

He'll win reelection easily.