(09-22-2009 11:33 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 11:09 AM)Crebman Wrote:  Torch, you are full of crap when you characterize the entire US system of education as failing. It fails in alot of places, but it also succeeds in a lot of places. Public schools are a product of the communities they serve. Generally, communities that place a high value on education have public schools that turn out educated students and communities that are screwed up and a mess have schools that are reflective of that.

I disagree. I had a child in the public schools of Fairfax County. By all measures FC is a community that "values" education.

Guess what? The school sucked. The teachers sucked. THe administrators sucked.

And my taxes were high.

Oh, I'm sure on a relative scale those schools are better than others. Compared to DC public schools, or even most suburban MD schools, the FC schools were better. But that doesn't mean "good".

Many parents recognized these issues and responded in a variety of ways:
Enrolling their kids in private schools
Enrolling their kids at Sylvan or Huntington education centers
Homeschooling

So how exactly does that demonstrate successful public schools?

Quote:However, how do you think the child of a drug addict would fare with homeschooling - or how about if the parent has an 80 I.Q. Do you think a moron adult will do a bang up job homeschooling?

I'm unsure what to do with these red herrings. I don't even understand the question. However, if the public schools are supposed to be evaluated based on their effectiveness of putting people w/ an 80 IQ into the public, then I'd say that there are better ways of doing that too!

And if that's the standard, whose logic is it to put students in an environment that's designed for the lowest 20%?

Quote:Fact is most public schools in large cities fail because too high a percentage of adults in that city DON"T CARE about education.

1. I didn't bring up large cities specifically.

2. Where's the proof that they don't "care"?

3.

You obviously have had a bad experience with public schools. You and I will disagree.....I think there are plenty of good public schools - it just depends where they are and the constituencies they serve.

I guess you can make the blanket statement "US public schools suck" based on your experience of 1 school in Fairfax County.

Now, notice I also said that a parent that is equipped to homeschool a child is probably the best option. IMO, there are large percentages of the population where the parents aren't a good choice for homeschooling - the 80 I.Q. example or the druggie example.

Quite frankly, I think that our public schools trying to be a college prep place for everyone that rolls through the door is a huge mistake. They also spend way too much time and money trying to bring the bottom feeders up to a competent level.

(09-22-2009 02:33 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Quite frankly, I think that our public schools trying to be a college prep place for everyone that rolls through the door is a huge mistake.

I agree with you completely here. But, isn't that a huge problem w/ the schools?

Quote: They also spend way too much time and money trying to bring the bottom feeders up to a competent level.

Agree here too.

And here's what both of these have in common: they are catering mass education to the fringe elements. How can you not underachieve when you spend most of your resources targeting the top and bottom 10%s, and then try to use that on the middle 80%?

Furthermore, the more they fail, the more they try to reform the entire sytem instead of straightforward upgrades.

Why not go back to 1973, use those materials at those costs? Heck, the results are the same and the cost is much lower.

But when you really get down to it, education has been dealt with since the dawn of man, and whether you believe that started in 4000 BC or 4billion BC, it's been around a long time. The most sensible approach is to use what's proven to work, and stop granting EdDs for coming up w/ absurd approaches to teaching.

Anyway, I went to public schools in OH. My older son went in VA. I have friends who teach now. I've had friends who've worked for the Dept of Education. I've seen more than one short experience w/ one public school.

(09-22-2009 03:13 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Why not go back to 1973, use those materials at those costs? Heck, the results are the same and the cost is much lower.

Because back in 1973 you could remove the fringe kids from the mainstream and focus on teaching kids that want to learn with parents that take an interest in education.

Now you have all the kids good , bad or indifferent in one room and the whole is suffering for it.

(09-22-2009 04:45 PM)uhmump95 Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 03:13 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Why not go back to 1973, use those materials at those costs? Heck, the results are the same and the cost is much lower.

Because back in 1973 you could remove the fringe kids from the mainstream and focus on teaching kids that want to learn with parents that take an interest in education.

Now you have all the kids good , bad or indifferent in one room and the whole is suffering for it.

Yes...and the standards have dropped because of it. My daughter finished HS in 2007 and is now in college. She took ALL honors courses and I can tell you flat out that what she was taught in those "honors" classes was the same stuff that I got in 74 thru 78 in HS and they were not called "honors" courses. Go figure.

(09-22-2009 03:13 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 02:33 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Quite frankly, I think that our public schools trying to be a college prep place for everyone that rolls through the door is a huge mistake.

I agree with you completely here. But, isn't that a huge problem w/ the schools?

Quote: They also spend way too much time and money trying to bring the bottom feeders up to a competent level.

Agree here too.

And here's what both of these have in common: they are catering mass education to the fringe elements. How can you not underachieve when you spend most of your resources targeting the top and bottom 10%s, and then try to use that on the middle 80%?

Furthermore, the more they fail, the more they try to reform the entire sytem instead of straightforward upgrades.

Why not go back to 1973, use those materials at those costs? Heck, the results are the same and the cost is much lower.

But when you really get down to it, education has been dealt with since the dawn of man, and whether you believe that started in 4000 BC or 4billion BC, it's been around a long time. The most sensible approach is to use what's proven to work, and stop granting EdDs for coming up w/ absurd approaches to teaching.

Anyway, I went to public schools in OH. My older son went in VA. I have friends who teach now. I've had friends who've worked for the Dept of Education. I've seen more than one short experience w/ one public school.

It would be nice to go back to 1973 funding levels, but teacher salaries were about $6K to $8K then. I doubt we could get competent teachers for less than what a McD's worker makes.

To me, it would make sense to guide a much greater % of kids to the vocational line of jobs, sadly though, a large % of those jobs no longer exist in the U.S. It will be increasingly tough to be part of the middle class without a fair amount of post-secondary schooling.

I do know that we are trying to fit too many square pegs into round holes with the results that the square pegs that are in the schools are getting short changed as well. IMO, that is not the individual teachers fault as much as it is the current "education philosophy" being espoused and mandated by our wonderful governments.

Something to consider.....generally, the teachers in a private school and those from a public school were trained at the same universities. Why would the privates outperform the publics??? I think it is more to do with parents and their expectations. Also, in the privates, if Johnny won't behave, he gets permanently tossed from school. Publics really don't have that option.

(09-22-2009 04:55 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 03:13 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 02:33 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Quite frankly, I think that our public schools trying to be a college prep place for everyone that rolls through the door is a huge mistake.

I agree with you completely here. But, isn't that a huge problem w/ the schools?

Quote: They also spend way too much time and money trying to bring the bottom feeders up to a competent level.

Agree here too.

And here's what both of these have in common: they are catering mass education to the fringe elements. How can you not underachieve when you spend most of your resources targeting the top and bottom 10%s, and then try to use that on the middle 80%?

Furthermore, the more they fail, the more they try to reform the entire sytem instead of straightforward upgrades.

Why not go back to 1973, use those materials at those costs? Heck, the results are the same and the cost is much lower.

But when you really get down to it, education has been dealt with since the dawn of man, and whether you believe that started in 4000 BC or 4billion BC, it's been around a long time. The most sensible approach is to use what's proven to work, and stop granting EdDs for coming up w/ absurd approaches to teaching.

Anyway, I went to public schools in OH. My older son went in VA. I have friends who teach now. I've had friends who've worked for the Dept of Education. I've seen more than one short experience w/ one public school.

It would be nice to go back to 1973 funding levels, but teacher salaries were about $6K to $8K then. I doubt we could get competent teachers for less than what a McD's worker makes.

To me, it would make sense to guide a much greater % of kids to the vocational line of jobs, sadly though, a large % of those jobs no longer exist in the U.S. It will be increasingly tough to be part of the middle class without a fair amount of post-secondary schooling.

I do know that we are trying to fit too many square pegs into round holes with the results that the square pegs that are in the schools are getting short changed as well. IMO, that is not the individual teachers fault as much as it is the current "education philosophy" being espoused and mandated by our wonderful governments.

Something to consider.....generally, the teachers in a private school and those from a public school were trained at the same universities. Why would the privates outperform the publics??? I think it is more to do with parents and their expectations. Also, in the privates, if Johnny won't behave, he gets permanently tossed from school. Publics really don't have that option.

It has to do with the fact that most of those that are the "underachievers" can not afford to go to private school. Those that get there on scholarships...have those dedicated parents you are talking about....Unfortunately...and I don't like it..but...it is a class thing.

What needs to happen is that ALL kids have mastered the basics by the 6th grade...Too much time is spent on BS and not enough on just the.."old fashioned reading,writing and arithmetic". Get this done and we will have kids that can figure out much of their world..."on their own".

If any of you have HBO there's a good documentary about Little Rock H.S. It will open some eyes on both sides of the aisle.

(09-22-2009 05:05 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 04:55 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 03:13 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 02:33 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Quite frankly, I think that our public schools trying to be a college prep place for everyone that rolls through the door is a huge mistake.

I agree with you completely here. But, isn't that a huge problem w/ the schools?

Quote: They also spend way too much time and money trying to bring the bottom feeders up to a competent level.

Agree here too.

And here's what both of these have in common: they are catering mass education to the fringe elements. How can you not underachieve when you spend most of your resources targeting the top and bottom 10%s, and then try to use that on the middle 80%?

Furthermore, the more they fail, the more they try to reform the entire sytem instead of straightforward upgrades.

Why not go back to 1973, use those materials at those costs? Heck, the results are the same and the cost is much lower.

But when you really get down to it, education has been dealt with since the dawn of man, and whether you believe that started in 4000 BC or 4billion BC, it's been around a long time. The most sensible approach is to use what's proven to work, and stop granting EdDs for coming up w/ absurd approaches to teaching.

Anyway, I went to public schools in OH. My older son went in VA. I have friends who teach now. I've had friends who've worked for the Dept of Education. I've seen more than one short experience w/ one public school.

It would be nice to go back to 1973 funding levels, but teacher salaries were about $6K to $8K then. I doubt we could get competent teachers for less than what a McD's worker makes.

To me, it would make sense to guide a much greater % of kids to the vocational line of jobs, sadly though, a large % of those jobs no longer exist in the U.S. It will be increasingly tough to be part of the middle class without a fair amount of post-secondary schooling.

I do know that we are trying to fit too many square pegs into round holes with the results that the square pegs that are in the schools are getting short changed as well. IMO, that is not the individual teachers fault as much as it is the current "education philosophy" being espoused and mandated by our wonderful governments.

Something to consider.....generally, the teachers in a private school and those from a public school were trained at the same universities. Why would the privates outperform the publics??? I think it is more to do with parents and their expectations. Also, in the privates, if Johnny won't behave, he gets permanently tossed from school. Publics really don't have that option.

It has to do with the fact that most of those that are the "underachievers" can not afford to go to private school. Those that get there on scholarships...have those dedicated parents you are talking about....Unfortunately...and I don't like it..but...it is a class thing.

What needs to happen is that ALL kids have mastered the basics by the 6th grade...Too much time is spent on BS and not enough on just the.."old fashioned reading,writing and arithmetic". Get this done and we will have kids that can figure out much of their world..."on their own".

I can honestly say that I would probably never homeschool my kids for my own specific reasons, but I do respect those who make the decision to do so. But in your curriculum I would also place an art class or a class in language. Creativity also plays a part in cognitive development.

I have always been a proponent of separating different students by their life objectives. No matter what path the kids should take they should be trained to be the best at what they will do.

(09-22-2009 08:02 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 05:05 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 04:55 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 03:13 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 02:33 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Quite frankly, I think that our public schools trying to be a college prep place for everyone that rolls through the door is a huge mistake.

I agree with you completely here. But, isn't that a huge problem w/ the schools?

Quote: They also spend way too much time and money trying to bring the bottom feeders up to a competent level.

Agree here too.

And here's what both of these have in common: they are catering mass education to the fringe elements. How can you not underachieve when you spend most of your resources targeting the top and bottom 10%s, and then try to use that on the middle 80%?

Furthermore, the more they fail, the more they try to reform the entire sytem instead of straightforward upgrades.

Why not go back to 1973, use those materials at those costs? Heck, the results are the same and the cost is much lower.

But when you really get down to it, education has been dealt with since the dawn of man, and whether you believe that started in 4000 BC or 4billion BC, it's been around a long time. The most sensible approach is to use what's proven to work, and stop granting EdDs for coming up w/ absurd approaches to teaching.

Anyway, I went to public schools in OH. My older son went in VA. I have friends who teach now. I've had friends who've worked for the Dept of Education. I've seen more than one short experience w/ one public school.

It would be nice to go back to 1973 funding levels, but teacher salaries were about $6K to $8K then. I doubt we could get competent teachers for less than what a McD's worker makes.

To me, it would make sense to guide a much greater % of kids to the vocational line of jobs, sadly though, a large % of those jobs no longer exist in the U.S. It will be increasingly tough to be part of the middle class without a fair amount of post-secondary schooling.

I do know that we are trying to fit too many square pegs into round holes with the results that the square pegs that are in the schools are getting short changed as well. IMO, that is not the individual teachers fault as much as it is the current "education philosophy" being espoused and mandated by our wonderful governments.

Something to consider.....generally, the teachers in a private school and those from a public school were trained at the same universities. Why would the privates outperform the publics??? I think it is more to do with parents and their expectations. Also, in the privates, if Johnny won't behave, he gets permanently tossed from school. Publics really don't have that option.

It has to do with the fact that most of those that are the "underachievers" can not afford to go to private school. Those that get there on scholarships...have those dedicated parents you are talking about....Unfortunately...and I don't like it..but...it is a class thing.

What needs to happen is that ALL kids have mastered the basics by the 6th grade...Too much time is spent on BS and not enough on just the.."old fashioned reading,writing and arithmetic". Get this done and we will have kids that can figure out much of their world..."on their own".

I can honestly say that I would probably never homeschool my kids for my own specific reasons, but I do respect those who make the decision to do so. But in your curriculum I would also place an art class or a class in language. Creativity also plays a part in cognitive development.

I have always been a proponent of separating different students by their life objectives. No matter what path the kids should take they should be trained to be the best at what they will do.

Let them practice their creativity in learning calligraphy while they write.

I understand your point...but...I'm more concerned with them being able to communicate effectively through reading comprehension and writing skills and being able to do basic math. No matter anyway...you and I have NO say in what these bureaucrats decide to do in the government indoctrination centers.

I have a feeling that will get done. But I feel that some things, such as languages are going to be needed in the future and are best learned and understood young. But art and PE would also be in my lead curriculum.

My daughter is in the 5th grade. Not having her memorize the times tables is hurting her imho. I constantly quiz her all the time. It drives me bonkers she doesn't know something I had down pat in 3rd grade.

(09-22-2009 08:34 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  My daughter is in the 5th grade. Not having her memorize the times tables is hurting her imho. I constantly quiz her all the time. It drives me bonkers she doesn't know something I had down pat in 3rd grade.

This.
You are highlighting one of the major problems with our current teaching methods. We built the greatest empire the world has ever seen....by teaching just what you are talking about. All of a sudden..the damn bureaucrats decided to try and fix something that was not broken. Go figure.

It's criminal really. I can't stomach it. It really pisses me off. Then you just watch the joy of learning just leech out of her. I don't let her know that I feel bad for her though. She needs to work twice as hard til she gets it. I can't stand how they teach it though.

(09-22-2009 08:39 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 08:34 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  My daughter is in the 5th grade. Not having her memorize the times tables is hurting her imho. I constantly quiz her all the time. It drives me bonkers she doesn't know something I had down pat in 3rd grade.

This.
You are highlighting one of the major problems with our current teaching methods. We built the greatest empire the world has ever seen....by teaching just what you are talking about. All of a sudden..the damn bureaucrats decided to try and fix something that was not broken. Go figure.

Time tables should be memorized in third grade and enforced through forth. Child psychology has been the same since we developed language and children still learn the same way.

(09-22-2009 09:04 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  It's criminal really. I can't stomach it. It really pisses me off. Then you just watch the joy of learning just leech out of her. I don't let her know that I feel bad for her though. She needs to work twice as hard til she gets it. I can't stand how they teach it though.

It was the same with my daughter. Thankfully though my mom kept her during the summers and instilled a love of reading in her and she excels in that realm....Unfortunately she still is not as proficient as she should be in math. She wanted to go to Med. school and was excepted to ECU's MD in 7 program...She bailed out after the first semester due to her admitted lack of math proficiency. Chemistry,Advanced Trig and Statistics along with a 21 hour course load did her in. She readily admits that her math skills were the reason to drop out of the program, since it was only going to get harder.

That's partially the reason I went to the Coast Guard. I have officially decided to go back to ECU full-time next year. Hopefully I can get into pharmacology.

(09-22-2009 08:39 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 08:34 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  My daughter is in the 5th grade. Not having her memorize the times tables is hurting her imho. I constantly quiz her all the time. It drives me bonkers she doesn't know something I had down pat in 3rd grade.

This.
You are highlighting one of the major problems with our current teaching methods. We built the greatest empire the world has ever seen....by teaching just what you are talking about. All of a sudden..the damn bureaucrats decided to try and fix something that was not broken. Go figure.

Can we survive as nation if this is not fixed?
If so, how?
If not, how do we get it changed?

(09-23-2009 06:52 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 08:39 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 08:34 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  My daughter is in the 5th grade. Not having her memorize the times tables is hurting her imho. I constantly quiz her all the time. It drives me bonkers she doesn't know something I had down pat in 3rd grade.

This.
You are highlighting one of the major problems with our current teaching methods. We built the greatest empire the world has ever seen....by teaching just what you are talking about. All of a sudden..the damn bureaucrats decided to try and fix something that was not broken. Go figure.

Can we survive as nation if this is not fixed?
If so, how?
If not, how do we get it changed?

We have got to get the Fed's Out Of It !!!!!! For Good !!!!!!

Let it go back to where local communities took care of their own schools and each parent and student has a stake in all aspects of how their School Looks, Feels, and Achieves Academically.

I have seen first hand what the Fed's do to an extremely good school and it is a total shame. Convoluted, Confusing, and Strange Course Work that has nothing to do with real life daily interactions all for reaching an Agenda that has little to do with Teaching and Learning.

You can say what you want, but ALL PUBLIC SCHOOLS are FEDERALLY RAN and it is killing them.

The Fed's have got to leave it alone and the States have got to delegate authority back to Local School Boards where Parents and Students come together to make THEIR SCHOOL the BEST IT CAN BE.

This is the only way ......

.

(09-23-2009 07:48 AM)Tripster Wrote:  

(09-23-2009 06:52 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 08:39 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(09-22-2009 08:34 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  My daughter is in the 5th grade. Not having her memorize the times tables is hurting her imho. I constantly quiz her all the time. It drives me bonkers she doesn't know something I had down pat in 3rd grade.

This.
You are highlighting one of the major problems with our current teaching methods. We built the greatest empire the world has ever seen....by teaching just what you are talking about. All of a sudden..the damn bureaucrats decided to try and fix something that was not broken. Go figure.

Can we survive as nation if this is not fixed?
If so, how?
If not, how do we get it changed?

We have got to get the Fed's Out Of It !!!!!! For Good !!!!!!

Let it go back to where local communities took care of their own schools and each parent and student has a stake in all aspects of how their School Looks, Feels, and Achieves Academically.

I have seen first hand what the Fed's do to an extremely good school and it is a total shame. Convoluted, Confusing, and Strange Course Work that has nothing to do with real life daily interactions all for reaching an Agenda that has little to do with Teaching and Learning.

You can say what you want, but ALL PUBLIC SCHOOLS are FEDERALLY RAN and it is killing them.

The Fed's have got to leave it alone and the States have got to delegate authority back to Local School Boards where Parents and Students come together to make THEIR SCHOOL the BEST IT CAN BE.

This is the only way ......

.

+1
Totally agree. Just doesn't fit with the feds mantra of "more power" - "more power" - "more power"

The ironic thing is that the Feds really don't fund it.....only about 5 %, but they use that 5% like a hammer to bend everyone to their bull**** stuff.

At the root of this it's probably W's fault..........................