Quote:The bottom line is this: Memphis used an ineligible player. It should be obvious that it doesn't matter at all if, at the time he was playing, Memphis, coach Calipari, or even the NCAA thought he was eligible. Because regardless of who knew what and when, the fact remains that all the time Derrick Rose was scoring baskets, stealing passes, leading the break, etc. in all those games, he was doing so without the necessary qualifications to play.

How can you say that that's the bottom line??

Say that you go to the bank to order checks, and when the bank mails them to you they mail you the wrong ones by mistake. Even though you're name is on them they're not tied to the correct account. You then try and write a check, and it doesn't clear. Based on your logic above, the bottom line is that you wrote a bad check. It doesn't matter that the bank told you that it was okay to use them. You're now in big trouble with both the vender and the bank, and the same bank that told you that the checks were good is now going to lay the smack down on you.

What makes this so crazy is that Rose isn't even necessarily being suspected of cheating. That wasn't it. The scores did not appear to be inconsistent with the type of student he was and were never red-flagged. The only reasons the scores were invalidated is because he did not cooperate. The reason he did not cooperate is because the ETS mailed the requests for information to an address he was not living at at the time. Had the ETS had enough sense to mail it to Memphis it's very possible this all could have been avoided.

The NCAA clearing house cleared him. The Memphis admissions office admitted him. The ETS initially validated the score. Based on all that, there is no way that the Memphis Athletic Department can reasonably be held solely responsible. I'm inclined to believe that they're not responsible at all, or at the very least they're far less responsible than all other involved parties. It's even more crazy that the NCAA, who played a big part in this screw-up, is the one that's handing down the punishment.

Quote:Memphis deserved to get slammed. This should be a lesson to schools who recuit players who barely qualify.

This line of thinking is just stupid. If you believe that the reason Memphis should be punished is because they acted irresponsibly, then it only makes sense to say that every single institution that recruited Rose should receive the same sort of punishment. They acted just as irresponsibly. Rose didn't go to those schools, but they were no less irresponsible than Memphis because they sure as hell tried to get him.

He was cleared to play. To say that schools can be penalized for offering scholarships and roster spots to players that are cleared to play is ridiculous. It's basically saying that other schools should be responsible for identifying the incompetency of the NCAA Clearing House. If they fail to identify when the Clearing House screws up then it's okay for the NCAA to punish them.

The lunacy of that should be self-explanatory.

(08-21-2009 10:41 PM)3rd Wise Man Wrote:  

Quote:The bottom line is this: Memphis used an ineligible player. It should be obvious that it doesn't matter at all if, at the time he was playing, Memphis, coach Calipari, or even the NCAA thought he was eligible. Because regardless of who knew what and when, the fact remains that all the time Derrick Rose was scoring baskets, stealing passes, leading the break, etc. in all those games, he was doing so without the necessary qualifications to play.

How can you say that that's the bottom line??

When your University Legal Counsel admits that the player was ineligible, and when Rules and Infractions views that as a strict liability offense, that's pretty much the bottom line.

Argue all the other stuff, riight or wrong, the discussion started and ended when Counsel admitted that to the Committee. Forget the fact they were notified in November of that year that the test scores were invalidated. The failure to act or the omission to correct at that point in itself warrented this.

BTW: saw a humorous take on all these idiots that think they should sue (forget the fact that they can't)

The NCAA's reply to the Complaint would be "You friggin' hired John Caliperi....Res Ipsa Loquitor....we're filing for Rule 11 sanctions."

(08-21-2009 10:41 PM)3rd Wise Man Wrote:  

Quote:The bottom line is this: Memphis used an ineligible player. It should be obvious that it doesn't matter at all if, at the time he was playing, Memphis, coach Calipari, or even the NCAA thought he was eligible. Because regardless of who knew what and when, the fact remains that all the time Derrick Rose was scoring baskets, stealing passes, leading the break, etc. in all those games, he was doing so without the necessary qualifications to play.

How can you say that that's the bottom line??

Say that you go to the bank to order checks, and when the bank mails them to you they mail you the wrong ones by mistake. Even though you're name is on them they're not tied to the correct account. You then try and write a check, and it doesn't clear. Based on your logic above, the bottom line is that you wrote a bad check. It doesn't matter that the bank told you that it was okay to use them. You're now in big trouble with both the vender and the bank, and the same bank that told you that the checks were good is now going to lay the smack down on you.

when the check doesn't clear, the vendor will demand payment via another check, plus assess a bounced-check fee. Is that reasonable? Absolutely, because the bottom line is that when i sign the check, it's my responsibility to the vendor that the check is valid- and it wasn't. I have to write another good check, and pay the bounce fee.

Now do i have cause to be pissed at the bank or printer who printed the wrong account numbers? Should i be able to demand that they pay the bounce-fee to the vendor? Maybe.But that has nothing to do with my responsibility to the vendor.

In this case, the eligibility rules for fair competition are the 'vendor', and memphis is responsible for using an ineligible player. I'm not sure there's any way to get around that.

(08-21-2009 10:52 PM)3rd Wise Man Wrote:  

Quote:Memphis deserved to get slammed. This should be a lesson to schools who recuit players who barely qualify.

This line of thinking is just stupid. If you believe that the reason Memphis should be punished is because they acted irresponsibly, then it only makes sense to say that every single institution that recruited Rose should receive the same sort of punishment. They acted just as irresponsibly. Rose didn't go to those schools, but they were no less irresponsible than Memphis because they sure as hell tried to get him.

He was cleared to play. To say that schools can be penalized for offering scholarships and roster spots to players that are cleared to play is ridiculous. It's basically saying that other schools should be responsible for identifying the incompetency of the NCAA Clearing House. If they fail to identify when the Clearing House screws up then it's okay for the NCAA to punish them.

The lunacy of that should be self-explanatory.

That's not an accurate statement of what happened.

The clearinghouse DID clear him but the story doesn't end there as the pro-Memphis and anti-NCAA folks want you to believe.

Memphis was advised in November before the season that there was a problem with the score and it was likely going to be tossed. At that momement Memphis was left with Rose appealing the score to uphold its validity (rarely successful) or use another score to get eligibility (he didn't have one close enough to make the argument) or sit him until it was resolved. Memphis opted to bet the mortgage payment, utility money, and grocery money on "7" on a single spin of the wheel and acts shocked when it didn't hit.

Last year Arkansas State had an eligibility issue arise and there were a few players sitting in the football complex who were not allowed to board the bus to go to the airport for the Texas A&M game until cleared or waived by the NCAA. That is the prudent way to do it instead of being warned there is an issue and just hoping it will work out.

(08-22-2009 09:10 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Memphis was advised in November before the season that there was a problem with the score and it was likely going to be tossed. At that momement Memphis was left with Rose appealing the score to uphold its validity (rarely successful) or use another score to get eligibility (he didn't have one close enough to make the argument) or sit him until it was resolved. Memphis opted to bet the mortgage payment, utility money, and grocery money on "7" on a single spin of the wheel and acts shocked when it didn't hit.

Really? I didn't know that. Memphis's case is even weaker than i thought.

Florida State got whacked for football.
Memphis gets whacked for basketball.
The Southern California investigations for football and basketball can't last for ever and they should get whacked too.

I think it is great that the NCAA is punishing offending schools who cheat to win at all costs. The problem with the punishments is that those who cheat like Bush, Rose, and Cal move on to high multi-million dollar contracts unaffected. The universities should be going to the court system to sue for the millions that their cheating scandels have cost them and the irreputable harm they have cost. That won't hapeen though because the schools will have to admit that they were part of the cheating schandel by not exercising the proper instituional control the NCAA requires in the first place.

Cheaters beware. :noisycricket: :noisycricket: :noisycricket:

BRING ON UCF FOR ALL SPORTS MEMBER 17.

Quote:Last year Arkansas State had an eligibility issue arise and there were a few players sitting in the football complex who were not allowed to board the bus to go to the airport for the Texas A&M game until cleared or waived by the NCAA. That is the prudent way to do it instead of being warned there is an issue and just hoping it will work out.

i was going to use arkansas state as an example, but opted not to because i didn't know how many people knew of the situation. Arkstatefan probably knows more about this than I do, so if I screw up a detail he can jump in, but this is the impression I was under in regards to the situation.

Essentially, arkansas state certified players that should not have been eligible by mistake (and for the record i do believe it was an honest mistake). It turns out that although it was caught last year, it had been going on for at least eight years.

Quote:“We did them exactly like I was trained to do,” Norman said. “That’s how I did them for eight years. If they were incorrect this semester, then they were incorrect ever since I have been there. We were always taught to round up, and that’s what we did.”

Quote:The nature of the infractions were not to intentionally defraud the NCAA in order to keep athletes eligible, according to Lee and Cooksey. The mistakes could be costly, though

Quote:Lee acknowledged the NCAA could agree with Arkansas State’s assessment and recommendations, or could come back with something more severe. Such penalties the NCAA might choose to enforce could be a reduction of scholarships, probation, fines, bans from postseason play or forfeiture of previous games

http://www.jonesborosun.com/archived_story.php?ID=35328

To my knowledge, arkansas state never had to forfeit any games. i don't think they even received any sort of punishment that would be considered severe. i'm under the impression that the reason for this is that they cooperated fully and it was obvious that the errors were not done intentionally.

A much more bizarre example occurred in the early/mid 1990s at Texas. There was a member of their football team that had been cleared to play by the clearing house and offered a scholarship. It turns out that he was playing under a fake name, was actually 30-something years old, had played junior college and div1 football in the past, along with having played semi-pro football. He as kicked off the team. Texas faced no penalties whatsoever. I had always assumed that since he douped the clearing house before entering Texas that the NCAA could not reasonably hold them accountable.

I guess my problem is that there are other examples (although not many in major revenue sports) of where players were cleared to play, and it later came out that they shouldn't have been. In the cases that I know about, the universities were not punished to anywhere near the degree that Memphis is being punished. The clearing house muffed the Derrick Rose situation (but it really wasn't even there fault), not Memphis. Arkansas State had been certifiying players in all sports FOR EIGHT YEARS incorrectly. They were rounding up (because that's what they thought they were supposed to do), so anyone who was borderlined would be rounded up and declared eligible. Are they having to vacate wins?? Are they having to pay money back?? That was not even a clearing house issue because it was an internal mistake. The Memphis situation was. That just strikes me as very inconsistent.

(08-21-2009 03:25 PM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  This spotlight illuminates that the University of Memphis does indeed “play” by the rules. Our graduation rates for student athletes are excellent and matched by few Division 1 Universities.

Memphis scored a 953 on the NCAA's APR graduation rates for men's basketball, or between the 60th and 70th percentiles. That's OK in and of itself, but it's matched by more than a few schools.

You know what, they may have the memories but Memphis got hit really hard. You can't hang the banners or show off the trophies to the kids. If you do, you have to sneak and do it, which is pathetic. They cannot acknowledge the record 38 wins and national title game appearances in programs or anything. I mean, that is vicious.

(08-20-2009 10:57 PM)OUBOBCATJOHN Wrote:  Memphis deserved to get slammed. This should be a lesson to schools who recuit players who barely qualify.

Agreed. Let's not forget that this wasn't an isolated incident either. Anyone remember the Robert Dozier story? He was all set to go to Georgia based on his absurdly high 1260 SAT (this despite the fact he scored in the 4th percentile on the PSAT). An anonymous letter purportedly from a high school faculty member told the NCAA that someone else took the test, and he was forced to take it again. When he did, he scored a 720. After that, Georgia wouldn't touch him with a 10-foot pole.

Calipari has made a career out of taking these kinds of kids, players that 90% of big-time basketball schools can't (and won't) touch. The majority of the fault is his, but UofM needs to take some responsibility here too. Let's see some standards and a little academic integrity here guys. We all accept the fact that if you can play basketball pretty well, a school will lower their admission standards some, but the degree to which Memphis has been doing it is laughable. That's not what college basketball should be about.

One good thing is that this keeps sleazy Cal from being the winningest coach in Memphis history. Say what you want about Larry Finch's terrible wardrobe, but the guy didn't leave a trail of slime wherever he walked.

(08-22-2009 05:21 PM)KnightChris Wrote:  

(08-20-2009 10:57 PM)OUBOBCATJOHN Wrote:  Memphis deserved to get slammed. This should be a lesson to schools who recuit players who barely qualify.

Agreed. Let's not forget that this wasn't an isolated incident either. Anyone remember the Robert Dozier story? He was all set to go to Georgia based on his absurdly high 1260 SAT (this despite the fact he scored in the 4th percentile on the PSAT). An anonymous letter purportedly from a high school faculty member told the NCAA that someone else took the test, and he was forced to take it again. When he did, he scored a 720. After that, Georgia wouldn't touch him with a 10-foot pole.

And Memphis took him anyway? I find that hard to believe.

I confess that the 2008 Memphis basketball team was the most entertaining team i've seen, college or pro, of the last 15 years. They were a lot of fun to watch.

But my gosh, the program under j-cap had the scent of "tark the shark".

(08-22-2009 05:21 PM)KnightChris Wrote:  

(08-20-2009 10:57 PM)OUBOBCATJOHN Wrote:  Memphis deserved to get slammed. This should be a lesson to schools who recuit players who barely qualify.

Agreed. Let's not forget that this wasn't an isolated incident either. Anyone remember the Robert Dozier story? He was all set to go to Georgia based on his absurdly high 1260 SAT (this despite the fact he scored in the 4th percentile on the PSAT). An anonymous letter purportedly from a high school faculty member told the NCAA that someone else took the test, and he was forced to take it again. When he did, he scored a 720. After that, Georgia wouldn't touch him with a 10-foot pole.

Calipari has made a career out of taking these kinds of kids, players that 90% of big-time basketball schools can't (and won't) touch. The majority of the fault is his, but UofM needs to take some responsibility here too. Let's see some standards and a little academic integrity here guys. We all accept the fact that if you can play basketball pretty well, a school will lower their admission standards some, but the degree to which Memphis has been doing it is laughable. That's not what college basketball should be about.

Dozier went to prep school and qualified after being snubbed by UGA.

Caliperi has made a career out of having his talent pimps funnel these kinds of kids to him.

This is exactly why Pitt wouldn't even talk to Calipari despite his desire to replace Ben Howland. Pitt has done fine with Jamie Dixon, but Cal really wanted the Pitt job. He is a former assistant who is from the Pittsburgh area, but Pitt wouldn't return his calls. If Memphis was notified that there was a question about Rose's eligibility and they played him anyway, they are 100% responsible and deserve everything they get. If the NCAA clearinghouse said OK and then never said anything about Rose until he was gone, then Memphis has a right to cry foul.

As far as how this effects the possibility of Memphis joining the Big East, I think that it puts it on hold for sure. Memphis is a tier 4 school. There are no tier 4 schools in any BCS conference. It is well out of the Big East footprint. They have a so-so football team and now there are questions about whether they will bend the rules. With Cal leaving there are additional questions about whether their basketball success will continue. Of course I don't really believe the BE will be expanding anytime soon, so the point is moot.

(08-22-2009 03:25 PM)CatsClaw Wrote:  You know what, they may have the memories but Memphis got hit really hard. You can't hang the banners or show off the trophies to the kids. If you do, you have to sneak and do it, which is pathetic. They cannot acknowledge the record 38 wins and national title game appearances in programs or anything. I mean, that is vicious.

Cheaters must pay. :noisycricket: :billgates: :odie:

(08-22-2009 06:07 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-22-2009 05:21 PM)KnightChris Wrote:  

(08-20-2009 10:57 PM)OUBOBCATJOHN Wrote:  Memphis deserved to get slammed. This should be a lesson to schools who recuit players who barely qualify.

Agreed. Let's not forget that this wasn't an isolated incident either. Anyone remember the Robert Dozier story? He was all set to go to Georgia based on his absurdly high 1260 SAT (this despite the fact he scored in the 4th percentile on the PSAT). An anonymous letter purportedly from a high school faculty member told the NCAA that someone else took the test, and he was forced to take it again. When he did, he scored a 720. After that, Georgia wouldn't touch him with a 10-foot pole.

And Memphis took him anyway? I find that hard to believe.

Georgia denied Dozier on SAT worries

By Mark Schlabach
ESPN.com
June 5, 2009

ATHENS, Ga. -- Former University of Memphis forward Robert Dozier's initial SAT score was invalidated by the company that scores the exam, and when he took the test a second time, he scored 540 fewer points, ESPN.com has learned through an open records request.

See link for complete article.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4233718

NOTE: Dozier subsequently enrolled at Laurinburg Prep along with four other future Tigers (Antonio Anderson, Shawne Williams, Kareem Cooper and Roburt Sallie). Amazing that all of these players went to the same EXPENSIVE prep school...and ALL suddenly became "qualified".

Memphis STILL allowed a player like Dozier who OBVIOUSLY cheated on his SAT test to eventually enroll in school...and that's why Calipari and "Academics" for Memphis Basketball players is a joke...as once at Memphis...suddenly, ALL of the players turned into "great students".

Yeah...right.

Things that make you go hhhhhmmmmmm.....

Ready for this...the NCAA had to basically SHUT DOWN Laurinburg Prep in 2008 because the NCAA "knew" it was a FRAUD (and so did Cal).

From NYTimes article:

And by the time the N.C.A.A. quietly announced last spring that it would no longer accept scores from Laurinburg Prep, the school that helped nearly half of Calipari’s Memphis players qualify for scholarships, Calipari had stopped sending recruits there. A Laurinburg student once said that at midyear a school janitor was promoted to history teacher.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/sports...mphis.html

PS. Here's another article about Dozier...which shows how his PSAT test scores were soooooooooo low 4th percentile), but suddenly jumped to 89th percentile on 1 main section of the SAT's.

Funny thing is (well, not funny...well...yeah...it is), MEMPHIS still offered him a SCHOLARSHIP!!!!

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/...aab,168367

(08-22-2009 09:15 PM)KnightLight Wrote:  A Laurinburg student once said that at midyear a school janitor was promoted to history teacher.

I wonder what the qualifications are to be hired as a janitor at Laurinburg? They're obviously held to very high standards...

(08-22-2009 06:17 PM)Original Sabretooth Wrote:  Dozier went to prep school and qualified after being snubbed by UGA.

As Knightlight noted, the 'prep school' was Laurinburg Institute. Here's the relevant information on that place:

"In 2007, the NCAA launched a three-year investigation of Laurinburg Institute during its review of college prep schools around the country. In May, the NCAA announced it would no longer accept courses, grades and diplomas from Laurinburg Institute because of concerns about its academic programs and oversight."