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Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 12:08 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  If you think the healthcare lobby will sit back and idly allow the President to overhaul healthcare with millions and millions at stake, you are the one is deluded.

I don't think they would at all.

Quote:This is a coordinated effort fed by $$$ from the healthcare lobby.

I read your link. I noticed the absence of any evidence whatsoever that they are paying these people to protest this. I see they have a grass roots effort, just like your beloved dems do with their war protests and moveon.org.

You're a fool if you think the majority of Americans want Obamacare. You're even more of a fool if you think the people who protest do this just because an insurance company paid them to.

Keep attacking and deflecting sparkey. You're losing the fight.
08-05-2009 12:15 PM
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Tripster Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 09:56 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  From the Ministry of Truth.

If only I were making this up. Ok all you civil liberties defenders, who told us Obama would undo all of Bush's evil...care to comment?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are...rn-Things/

Quote:Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to [email protected].

Sure, I'll get right on it ASAP.

What was that Email Addy Again ???? [email protected] ???????

Suc-asses ..... 03-nutkick 04-chairshot

.
08-05-2009 12:15 PM
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bearcat65 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 12:08 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  
(08-05-2009 11:53 AM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  Anyone who believes these protest are simply faked or manufactured is deluded beyond belief.

If you think the healthcare lobby will sit back and idly allow the President to overhaul healthcare with millions and millions at stake, you are the one is deluded.

This is a coordinated effort fed by $$$ from the healthcare lobby.

Here is a detailed discussion about it (and i'm sure you won't mind that it's from a left-leaning site. After all, you wouldn't refute the information simply because of the political leanings of those presenting it... would you?)

http://standwithdrdean.com/2009/08/05/ah...protestors

It's a coordinated effort but I'd like to see some proof that the protestors are being compensated to protest. Looks to me like this is more of an effort to attack the messengers rather than address the points that the messengers are bringing.
08-05-2009 12:20 PM
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wvucrazed Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 12:15 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  You're a fool if you think the majority of Americans want Obamacare.

Well, not a majority. But 50% support it.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/05/h...index.html

Also interesting: "seven out of 10 Americans think that major structural changes are necessary to reduce health care costs or provide insurance coverage to all Americans"

Look, I know that not everybody showing up at these town halls are pocketing $$ from the insurance lobby. But the insurance lobby has been instrumental in 1) delaying a vote so that these townhalls could happen in the first place, and 2) spreading misinformation about Obama's plan, and 3) organizing and encouraging these protests.

And these protests are about disruption, not discussion. Check out the suggestions helpfully provided by one of the organizers of the "Tea Party Patriots" about how to approach these town hall meetings:

– Artificially Inflate Your Numbers: “Spread out in the hall and try to be in the front half. The objective is to put the Rep on the defensive with your questions and follow-up. The Rep should be made to feel that a majority, and if not, a significant portion of at least the audience, opposes the socialist agenda of Washington.”

– Be Disruptive Early And Often: “You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep’s presentation, Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep’s statements early.”

– Try To “Rattle Him,” Not Have An Intelligent Debate: “The goal is to rattle him, get him off his prepared script and agenda. If he says something outrageous, stand up and shout out and sit right back down. Look for these opportunities before he even takes questions.”


http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/31/rece...ment-memo/

* * *

It's political theater designed to sway public opinion, and who is in best position to gain from this? The health care lobby.
08-05-2009 12:26 PM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 12:26 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Well, not a majority. But 50% support it.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/05/h...index.html

Unfortunately they don't list out their sample. The NYTimes for example loves to do polls where over 45% of respondants ID themselves as Democrats, ensuring a skewed result.

Quote:Also interesting: "seven out of 10 Americans think that major structural changes are necessary to reduce health care costs or provide insurance coverage to all Americans"

How is that interesting? It's a fact. It doesn't lead one to Obamacare though.

Check this poll out for perspective.

Quote:In the Quinnipiac survey, 55% (including 54% of the key independent voter bloc) said they were more concerned that the overhaul would increase the deficit than that Congress would not pass some kind of overhaul. That same 57% (and 59% of independents) disagreed with the following statement: “Overhauling the nation’s health care system is so important that it should be enacted even if it means substantially increasing the federal budget deficit.”

The CBO has stated over and over Obamacare would bust the budget.

Understanding polls means looking at more than the number.
(This post was last modified: 08-05-2009 12:40 PM by Ninerfan1.)
08-05-2009 12:37 PM
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wvucrazed Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 12:37 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  The CBO has stated over and over Obamacare would bust the budget.

"Every independent estimate says the public option will save us money, from saving 150 billion dollars (CBO) to saving 265 billion dollars (Commonwealth). The Congressional Budget Office estimates the current bill in the House would leave a 6 billion dollar surplus."

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_treat...-good.aspx

http://foundationcenter.org/pnd/news/sto...=259000012

http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=1872
08-05-2009 12:57 PM
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Artifice Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 10:34 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Um, yeah.

That's quite an astonishing stretch to suggest that asking people to report blatant disinformation so that it can be publicly corrected is the same as Bush & company using warrantless wiretaps, rendition, "enhanced" interrogation techniques, etc..

See, the thing is, there is no Obama Truth Squad that will swoop down in a black helicopter to snatch the innocent tea-bagger as he goes along his merry way spewing right-wing talking points he dutifully learned from Sean Hannity and transport him to a secret prison where he will be forced to listen to old Al Franken monologues.

.... although, that might be a new policy to consider.

03-lmfao

If you didnt laugh at the Franken bit, you're taking this **** too seriously.

That was funny.
08-05-2009 01:09 PM
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Artifice Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 10:39 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(08-05-2009 10:34 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Um, yeah.

That's quite an astonishing stretch to suggest that asking people to report blatant disinformation

I see no stretch at all, and it's disingenuous to suggest that.

You lie so easily. Are you a salesman? I bet you're a damn good one.
08-05-2009 01:11 PM
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wvucrazed Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 01:09 PM)Artifice Wrote:  03-lmfao

If you didnt laugh at the Franken bit, you're taking this **** too seriously.

That was funny.

I probably shouldn't admit this... and I'm glad he gives the Democrats 60 in the Senate, but... I can't STAND Al Franken.

I tried listening to him on Air America and I just couldn't. Not the points he was making, but his delivery... just incredibly annoying.

I can't imagine a worse punishment for unrepentant conservatives than a long session with Senator Franken because if I can't stand him, they must REALLY despise him. 03-lmfao
08-05-2009 01:12 PM
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Artifice Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 12:15 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  
(08-05-2009 12:08 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  If you think the healthcare lobby will sit back and idly allow the President to overhaul healthcare with millions and millions at stake, you are the one is deluded.

I don't think they would at all.

You are much, much too intelligent to really believe this. You also know how the game is played.

Quote:This is a coordinated effort fed by $$$ from the healthcare lobby.

It is a PR war from both sides. And with the dollars involved, it's shaping up to be the nastiest fight since the Iraq invasion. For that reason, I am skeptical of every soundbyte, and believing the worst about the gamesmanship.
08-05-2009 01:16 PM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 12:57 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  
(08-05-2009 12:37 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  The CBO has stated over and over Obamacare would bust the budget.

"Every independent estimate says the public option will save us money, from saving 150 billion dollars (CBO) to saving 265 billion dollars (Commonwealth). The Congressional Budget Office estimates the current bill in the House would leave a 6 billion dollar surplus."

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_treat...-good.aspx

http://foundationcenter.org/pnd/news/sto...=259000012

http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=1872

Fail.

Quote:For the second time this month, congressional budget analysts have dealt a blow to the Democrat's health reform efforts, this time by saying a plan touted by the White House as crucial to paying for the bill would actually save almost no money over 10 years.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/070...z0NL6JlbSd

[quote]But on Saturday, the Congressional Budget Office said the proposal to give an independent panel the power to keep Medicare spending in check would only save about $2 billion over 10 years- a drop in the bucket compared to the bill's $1 trillion price tag.

Wow. A whole 2 billion in savings after spending over a trillion.
(This post was last modified: 08-05-2009 02:42 PM by Ninerfan1.)
08-05-2009 02:42 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 11:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-05-2009 11:02 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  BTW I wish we had a system like Canada and we actually paid for it with a national sales tax, but I think you know that.

No you don't.
You, of all people, don't.
If you don't understand that, then you are failing to comprehend how a system like Canada works.
I think you mean that you want a system like France. So do I.
But not Canada.

How about just staying the hell out of my pocket. It is not my duty or obligation to subsidize the health of anyone. I may choose to help on my own volition but I'm damn tired of having a gun put to my head.
08-05-2009 03:48 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 09:56 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  From the Ministry of Truth.

If only I were making this up. Ok all you civil liberties defenders, who told us Obama would undo all of Bush's evil...care to comment?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are...rn-Things/

Quote:Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to [email protected].

Are they serious? Is this real? Your telling me that I can now notify the whitehouse every time I run across an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy about any of their lies and they will take it serious? This is new. Tell now they have been ignoring anyone pointing out their lies. I see this as a hugh positive for this administation. They're actualy going to listen when we highlight their glaring lies. Bravo!!!

I say we all start e-mailing [email protected]. 03-lmfao
08-05-2009 03:56 PM
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wvucrazed Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 02:42 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  Wow. A whole 2 billion in savings after spending over a trillion.

Washington, D.C. — The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) released estimates this evening confirming for the first time that H.R. 3200, America’s Affordable Health Choices Act, is deficit neutral over the 10-year budget window - and even produces a $6 billion surplus. CBO estimated more than $550 billion in gross Medicare and Medicaid savings. More importantly, the bill includes a comprehensive array of delivery reforms to set the stage for lowering the future growth in health care costs.

Net Medicare and Medicaid savings of $465 billion, coupled with the $583 billion revenue package reported today by the House Committee on Ways and Means, fully finance the previously estimated $1.042 trillion cost of reform, which will provide affordable health care coverage for 97% of Americans.

“This fulfills the strong commitment of the President and House leadership to enact health reform on a deficit-neutral basis,” said Chairmen Henry A. Waxman, Chairman Charles B. Rangel, and Chairman George Miller. “The reforms included in this legislation will help control health care costs and expand access to quality, affordable coverage to all Americans in fiscally-responsible manner.”

The estimates also cover important reinvestments in Medicare and Medicaid, including phasing in the closing of the “donut” hole in the Medicare drug benefit. The bill’s long-term reform of Medicare’s physician fee schedule to eliminate the potential 21 percent cut in fees, and put payments on a sustainable basis for the future, will cost about $245 billion. Those costs, however, are not included in the net calculations above, as they will be absorbed under the upcoming statutory “pay go” legislation that is pending in the House.
08-05-2009 04:07 PM
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NIUFAN Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
I just went ahead and turned myself in on Obama's website and asked for his forgivness.
08-05-2009 04:34 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 09:56 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  From the Ministry of Truth.

If only I were making this up. Ok all you civil liberties defenders, who told us Obama would undo all of Bush's evil...care to comment?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are...rn-Things/

Quote:Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to [email protected].

The Stasi and KGB would be proud.
08-05-2009 05:08 PM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 04:07 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  
(08-05-2009 02:42 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  Wow. A whole 2 billion in savings after spending over a trillion.

Washington, D.C. — The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) released estimates this evening confirming for the first time that H.R. 3200, America’s Affordable Health Choices Act, is deficit neutral over the 10-year budget window - and even produces a $6 billion surplus. CBO estimated more than $550 billion in gross Medicare and Medicaid savings. More importantly, the bill includes a comprehensive array of delivery reforms to set the stage for lowering the future growth in health care costs.

Net Medicare and Medicaid savings of $465 billion, coupled with the $583 billion revenue package reported today by the House Committee on Ways and Means, fully finance the previously estimated $1.042 trillion cost of reform, which will provide affordable health care coverage for 97% of Americans.

“This fulfills the strong commitment of the President and House leadership to enact health reform on a deficit-neutral basis,” said Chairmen Henry A. Waxman, Chairman Charles B. Rangel, and Chairman George Miller. “The reforms included in this legislation will help control health care costs and expand access to quality, affordable coverage to all Americans in fiscally-responsible manner.”

The estimates also cover important reinvestments in Medicare and Medicaid, including phasing in the closing of the “donut” hole in the Medicare drug benefit. The bill’s long-term reform of Medicare’s physician fee schedule to eliminate the potential 21 percent cut in fees, and put payments on a sustainable basis for the future, will cost about $245 billion. Those costs, however, are not included in the net calculations above, as they will be absorbed under the upcoming statutory “pay go” legislation that is pending in the House.

Fail...again.

Linky

Free piece of advice. Quoting from a dem reps press release as proof...not your best strategy. Better to read the report for yourself.

From the CBO Website
Quote:According to CBO’s and JCT’s assessment, enacting H.R. 3200 would result in a net increase in the federal budget deficit of $239 billion over the 2010-2019 period. That estimate reflects a projected 10-year cost of the bill’s insurance coverage provisions of $1,042 billion, partly offset by net spending changes that CBO estimates would save $219 billion over the same period, and by revenue provisions that JCT estimates would increase federal revenues by about $583 billion over those 10 years.

By the end of the 10-year period, in 2019, the coverage provisions would add $202 billion to the federal deficit, CBO and JCT estimate. That increase would be partially offset by net cost savings of $50 billion and additional revenues of $86 billion, resulting in a net increase in the deficit of an estimated $65 billion.

Don't choke on the kool-aid chief.
(This post was last modified: 08-05-2009 06:12 PM by Ninerfan1.)
08-05-2009 06:10 PM
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Smaug Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 10:34 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Um, yeah.

That's quite an astonishing stretch to suggest that asking people to report blatant disinformation so that it can be publicly corrected is the same as Bush & company using warrantless wiretaps, rendition, "enhanced" interrogation techniques, etc..

See, the thing is, there is no Obama Truth Squad that will swoop down in a black helicopter to snatch the innocent tea-bagger as he goes along his merry way spewing right-wing talking points he dutifully learned from Sean Hannity and transport him to a secret prison where he will be forced to listen to old Al Franken monologues.

.... although, that might be a new policy to consider.

Come now. Do you honestly not find the whole thing justa weensy bit creepy? Have you read 1984?
08-05-2009 06:24 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 06:24 PM)Smaug Wrote:  
(08-05-2009 10:34 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Um, yeah.

That's quite an astonishing stretch to suggest that asking people to report blatant disinformation so that it can be publicly corrected is the same as Bush & company using warrantless wiretaps, rendition, "enhanced" interrogation techniques, etc..

See, the thing is, there is no Obama Truth Squad that will swoop down in a black helicopter to snatch the innocent tea-bagger as he goes along his merry way spewing right-wing talking points he dutifully learned from Sean Hannity and transport him to a secret prison where he will be forced to listen to old Al Franken monologues.

.... although, that might be a new policy to consider.

Come now. Do you honestly not find the whole thing justa weensy bit creepy? Have you read 1984?

Nah, it's cool. It's a Democrat doing it so he's not concerned. Kinda why I've been saying they're all about party over principle. I wonder how they're going to feel about these policies when the Republicans take over. I would assume they'll do an about face in 1 second flat. That's the thing about the Bill of Rights. It's party-neutral. It's not set up to benefit one party or another. It's supposed to benefit the people. ...and the libs can't stand it when there's a Democrat in office.
08-05-2009 07:24 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Turn in people to Big Brother. (Not fiction)
(08-05-2009 06:24 PM)Smaug Wrote:  Come now. Do you honestly not find the whole thing justa weensy bit creepy? Have you read 1984?

This whole thing is way, way too 1984-ish for my comfort. Way....
08-05-2009 07:33 PM
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