(05-21-2009 08:10 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I'm sorry Trip...The rise of Hitler was a direct result of the Versailles treaty that ended WW1...which I think we actually did not sign on to...anyway... the harshness of the treaty, particularly the war reparations, caused the massive hyperinflation and the subsequent destruction of the German economy. It was this...that set the stage for the national socialists and Hitlers rise to power.

I agree that intervention into WWII was necessary...Unfortunately it was simply a continuation of the the first war that we were "sucked" into. I still maintain that our initial entrance into that war was the mistake.

I realize that we are allies and have an obligation to help...but...Of course I'm not a fan of alliances...just as several of the founders were not.

All this is just conjecture and moot anyway...not meant to become a flaming argument.

No arguments here, good discussion going on from what I see.

Fo I hear what you are saying as I do what BT is thinking regarding Hitlers Chosen Path and how History could have been altered - -

"If not for If, But If not for But, all things would be Different".

From what I have learned of Hitler, he was already very disillusioned with the way Government worked and stated his disdain even as a low ranked Soldier in WWI. Which got him into some grief, but he held to his idea and wrote what became a "Play Book" for his Dream Movement. (started writing it while in jail even)

He had Dreams of Grandeur where he saw him self right where he got him self too in just a few short years after WWI.

And of course, the workings in the background surely helped to bolster his ideology and made it very easy to manipulate a movement from within the people that ended up becoming the Nazi's and the rest is History.

Same "Methodology" is used by Radical Fundamentalist Islamist to indoctrinate and recruit Hate Filled Fanatics, with the basic difference between Radical Nazi'ism and Radical Islamic Jihad is the Religious Aspect of what the Islamist are doing.

It is easy to see, how awesomely fantastic, promising "Eternity with a god in Paradise where you wake up every new day with 70 Virgins to love you and pamper you", is kinda sorta compelling to the psyche of people not learned of the world outside their tiny microcosmic remote family unit or village or are kept devoid of correct non-propaganda news and literature.

And with Hitler, I just simply believe Hitler had such a Maniacal Drive to get to where he ended up at, that the only thing that could have stopped him would have been death.

Rommel and Crew couldn't even assassinate him with an excellent planned attack .... the man didn't get a scratch in the attempt.

And I will tell you a little secret .... the British had not been treating the Irish much better than the Nazi's treated Jews, Gypsies, and others they considered Unclean Vermin - - in some instances, the Nazi's could have taken lessons from the British on how to be Bloody Torturing, Murdering ass holes.

I find it funny that Churchill is regarded as this great great WWII Savior Hero, when he sanctioned the Murder, Rape, and Pillage with Burning of Homes and Farms in Ireland and Pure Military Oppressive War Crimes done to the Irish People for Decade upon Decade .... its a piss off !!!

Germany was doing no different to Britain than what Britain was doing to Ireland ... some fonky Irony stuffed in there that most people don't know about.

.

(05-22-2009 12:57 PM)Tripster Wrote:  

(05-21-2009 08:10 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I'm sorry Trip...The rise of Hitler was a direct result of the Versailles treaty that ended WW1...which I think we actually did not sign on to...anyway... the harshness of the treaty, particularly the war reparations, caused the massive hyperinflation and the subsequent destruction of the German economy. It was this...that set the stage for the national socialists and Hitlers rise to power.

I agree that intervention into WWII was necessary...Unfortunately it was simply a continuation of the the first war that we were "sucked" into. I still maintain that our initial entrance into that war was the mistake.

I realize that we are allies and have an obligation to help...but...Of course I'm not a fan of alliances...just as several of the founders were not.

All this is just conjecture and moot anyway...not meant to become a flaming argument.

No arguments here, good discussion going on from what I see.

Fo I hear what you are saying as I do what BT is thinking regarding Hitlers Chosen Path and how History could have been altered - -

"If not for If, But If not for But, all things would be Different".

From what I have learned of Hitler, he was already very disillusioned with the way Government worked and stated his disdain even as a low ranked Soldier in WWI. Which got him into some grief, but he held to his idea and wrote what became a "Play Book" for his Dream Movement. (started writing it while in jail even)

He had Dreams of Grandeur where he saw him self right where he got him self too in just a few short years after WWI.

And of course, the workings in the background surely helped to bolster his ideology and made it very easy to manipulate a movement from within the people that ended up becoming the Nazi's and the rest is History.

Same "Methodology" is used by Radical Fundamentalist Islamist to indoctrinate and recruit Hate Filled Fanatics, with the basic difference between Radical Nazi'ism and Radical Islamic Jihad is the Religious Aspect of what the Islamist are doing.

It is easy to see, how awesomely fantastic, promising "Eternity with a god in Paradise where you wake up every new day with 70 Virgins to love you and pamper you", is kinda sorta compelling to the psyche of people not learned of the world outside their tiny microcosmic remote family unit or village or are kept devoid of correct non-propaganda news and literature.

And with Hitler, I just simply believe Hitler had such a Maniacal Drive to get to where he ended up at, that the only thing that could have stopped him would have been death.

Rommel and Crew couldn't even assassinate him with an excellent planned attack .... the man didn't get a scratch in the attempt.

And I will tell you a little secret .... the British had not been treating the Irish much better than the Nazi's treated Jews, Gypsies, and others they considered Unclean Vermin - - in some instances, the Nazi's could have taken lessons from the British on how to be Bloody Torturing, Murdering ass holes.

I find it funny that Churchill is regarded as this great great WWII Savior Hero, when he sanctioned the Murder, Rape, and Pillage with Burning of Homes and Farms in Ireland and Pure Military Oppressive War Crimes done to the Irish People for Decade upon Decade .... its a piss off !!!

Germany was doing no different to Britain than what Britain was doing to Ireland ... some fonky Irony stuffed in there that most people don't know about.

.

Yes..I agree with much of your comments. I often wonder if the US had put its foot down and not allowed the Versailles treaty to be so harsh that it destroyed the German economy would the environment for the nationalism had taken hold. I understand that at one point it took a wheelbarrow of money to buy a loaf of bread due to the hyperinflation.
If Germany had been allowed to recover from the war, I don't think the citizens would have taken so easily to message of Hitler.

Obviously we will never know...but...I'd submit that it should and example of something to not allow to happen again.

Yeah....Our allies certainly have had their own bouts of empire building and subsequent deeds that are nothing to be proud of...as do we.

(05-22-2009 11:29 AM)Paul M Wrote:  

(05-22-2009 08:24 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Religious differences have overshadowed the original conflict, but the basis for the religious war goes back to when Mohammad came to Jerusalem to make peace with the Jews. He presented his peace proposal, and then went to pray while they debated. In those days all Arabs faced Jerusalem to pray. Mohammad was still at prayer when the response came from the Jewish elders that there could be no peace since the Arabs were descended from the wrong son of Abraham. Upon hearing this, Mohammad turned 180°, facing Mecca, continued his prayer, and went off into the desert to seek a new path. This journey is now known as the Haaj, and Arabs face Mecca to this day...

The history of the Middle East is so muddled and convoluted that it often appears to be other than it is. But if you look deep enough, you'll find the same fight has been ongoing forever...

The same peace is still offered today. If only the rest of the world would take Islam up on their offer, we could have said peace. Islam=Submit, not Peace, the lie we are always told. The Jews could have submited and they would have had peace. Well temporarily, until the true nature of Muhammad come out. We could have peace today if we would only submit. Personnally, I would rather die fighting these savage animals.

All of this happened before the Qur'an was written. Had the Jewish people accepted the peace offering back when it was originally offered, history might have been very different, and so might the holy writings of Islam. After all, the Qur'an was written by a man, not a God, just like the Bible...

(05-22-2009 04:59 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  After all, the Qur'an was written by a man, not a God, just like the Bible...

Muhammed was illiterate, FWIW.

I'd be willing to be that many of those who had input on the Bible were illiterate as well. Literacy wasn't common among humanity in those days...

buttmuncher, you would know all about the loony left wingnuts interpretation about biblical illiteracy. Of course, you have no facts to back up any assumption the loons want to put forward. You must think as they do that as long as you repeat it over and over again and again, soon the mindless babble(ons) will think it to be the truth.

(05-23-2009 01:11 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  buttmuncher, you would know all about the loony left wingnuts interpretation about biblical illiteracy. Of course, you have no facts to back up any assumption the loons want to put forward. You must think as they do that as long as you repeat it over and over again and again, soon the mindless babble(ons) will think it to be the truth.

pot calling the kettle black.
and again the insulting tone

Unimportant, Fo. I've got thick skin...

(05-23-2009 08:27 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  I'd be willing to be that many of those who had input on the Bible were illiterate as well. Literacy wasn't common among humanity in those days...

Do you realize that "Ancient Hebrew" is such a fantastic language that it is a Language of Pure Mathematical and Artful Beauty ??

In Ancient Hebrew, every Letter or Symbol had a Numerical Value as well as an actual Pictorial Meaning.

Then, when combined into a Sentence, it was so structured that the Sentence not only had a Combined Mathematical Value that had Literal Meaning, but the Sentence also Drew a Picture of the Subject or a Subject as well.

Now Contrast that to entire Paragraphs and Complete Pages of Hebrew Text Symbols ... when a Page was looked upon as a whole work, it Drew a Complete Picture that was a part of the Sum Parts of the Symbols and made complete sense both Mathematically and with Picture Image as well as gave a Written Account of the Story being told.

So when the Hebrews read their writings, they saw Mathematical Summary in every Letter, Sentence, Paragraph, Page, Book ....

They Saw complete Picture Stories and Images in the Individual Symbols and another Picture Story in a Complete Sentence and another in a Paragraph and another in the Full Page and another in the Completed Book.

And they Saw in their Words, individual or what could be part of the whole Mathematical or Pictorial Work, actual Quantifiable Mathematical Value that had Numerical Purpose and not just random digits - - same with the Pictorial Images created by their Text Symbols - - their Language worked to create Art as well as Words and Meaningful Numerical Value and to me, that is freggin Awesome.

It is a Fascinating Language in all ways.

Nothing in the Hebrew Language was wasted at all .... it ALL MEANT SOMETHING - - it had Actual Substance to it in every form and circumstance.

Contrast that to the English Language and all you get are 26 Alphabetic Letters that mean only A, B, C, and so on .... the only Numerical Value they have is A=1st letter of the Alphabet, B=2nd Letter and so on.

A persons Name in Hebrew had a Letter-by-Letter Mathematical Value, a Letter-by-Letter Pictorial Value, a Combined Mathematical Value, and the Name as Written as a Whole word, had even more of these Values that actually Described the Word in many ways.

To know this about the Hebrew Language and then to look at this very English Text I am writing and know it is so DRY, VOID, and EMPTY of any Color or Meaning outside what the Letters Say when Combined together to create words, is pretty sad for us.

The Hebrews got to Feel the Color of the World through their Language while we get ..... well .... this ...

Illiterate People .... far far from it.

.

Aramaic was an eloquent language. But literacy was relegated to the upper classes in those times. The lower classes weren't as educated...

(05-23-2009 08:32 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Aramaic was an eloquent language.

But literacy was relegated to the upper classes in those times. The lower classes weren't as educated...

Correct, as was the Original Greek Language .... especially these '3' Languages of Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, all used every nuance of their value to build and describe the world around them. And even Latin comes a little close to this styling as well.

They wasted nothing in their Languages and these '3' Languages all pretty much used the rich and imaginative way of Mathematical, Pictorial, and Symbolic Text styling to create their points and I have to feel kind of jealous and left out having to use such a no-imagination language as what we have created for our selves.

And I would have to say that these languages were pretty "Economical" in the way they combined almost perfectly, to create that story or that song or that poem, where English has all sorts of confusing ways of saying basically nothing at all, using so many words that it is sort of amusing.

I mean it is said that the English Language is one of the hardest languages to learn even if you only learn 'Proper English' and you don't bother with all the Slang and ism's that we use that are not Proper Parts of the Language and with up to sometimes 5 ways to spell the same sounding, but different meaning word, I can understand what they mean by that pretty easily.

I would love to one day, honestly not be able to understand a single word of English and be able to hear it spoken by all sorts of Americans who are using all the different and colorful accents we have all throughout our country.

I have heard it said by those who can't speak English, that it has a Beautiful Sound to it .... how will I ever know - - I think German is a very poetic and beautiful language, but if you are German, how would you know how it sounds to me.

Isn't it weird that we who speak English, will never get the chance to experience it as a Non-English Speaking Foreigner hears it.

I know, I am odd ...

Stay out of this Robert !!!!

.

(05-23-2009 08:27 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  I'd be willing to be that many of those who had input on the Bible were illiterate as well. Literacy wasn't common among humanity in those days...

It may be insulting to a lot of people the notion that those who contributed to witting of the bible were illiterate. There are several levels of insulting. To presuppose that a grope of people that wrote probably the most published book of all time, were literate, when not a shred of evidence is put forth is arrogant and well as debasing. Further, I think a comparison is therefore justified as to what a person or persons who has contributed NOTHING to anything is compared to the writers of a book beloved by a large population of the planet and more than 5000 years old, could possibly, possibly justify an inane comment about the literacy of the people who wrote the Bible. Additionally, IMO, the literacy of a large portion of LoonyLeftyWingNut posters on this board is definitely a question in my mind. In My Mind, that education was a waste of money and effort.

And your concern, ......... my tone. FuckOff, Is that literate enough for you?

(05-24-2009 04:56 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(05-23-2009 08:27 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  I'd be willing to be that many of those who had input on the Bible were illiterate as well. Literacy wasn't common among humanity in those days...

It may be insulting to a lot of people the notion that those who contributed to witting of the bible were illiterate. There are several levels of insulting. To presuppose that a grope of people that wrote probably the most published book of all time, were literate, when not a shred of evidence is put forth is arrogant and well as debasing. Further, I think a comparison is therefore justified as to what a person or persons who has contributed NOTHING to anything is compared to the writers of a book beloved by a large population of the planet and more than 5000 years old, could possibly, possibly justify an inane comment about the literacy of the people who wrote the Bible. Additionally, IMO, the literacy of a large portion of LoonyLeftyWingNut posters on this board is definitely a question in my mind. In My Mind, that education was a waste of money and effort.

And your concern, ......... my tone. FuckOff, Is that literate enough for you?

classic

The worst thing you can do to a moron is challenge their intelligence, or suppositions. It ruins their view of the world, and they hate you for it. Some people prefer to keep their head in the sand, accepting things on faith, without a shred of proof, and then use their belief in that which they have faith in as proof of its existence...

SumOfAllFears levels of intelligence and literacy are clear for all to see. Who cares what he thinks, besides him and the rest of the religious zealots?