Umm ... Good Answer, but I was looking more for something like 20,000.

Seriously, what they accomplished in the "Massacre of Jenin" was brilliant ... they reached into the heart of the Palestinians with only a few dozen casualties, almost exclusively bad guys.

(05-20-2009 08:10 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(05-20-2009 08:05 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  They've been fighting the war in the Middle East for thousands of years - long before the birth of Jesus. Rome couldn't stop it. The Crusades couldn't stop it. I don't know why people seem to think the USA can solve it. Intelligence is irrelevant in the face of hatreds passed down from generation to generation. There is no intelligence in such matters...

They've been fighting wars in Europe for thousands of years. Maybe we shoulda just let those Jews fend for themselves?

I'm amazed at the stupid conclusions you make from insufficient evidence. Read my words again, and run them through a semantic wringer to force the meaning of my words into your brain...

I said nothing about letting Jews fend for themselves. Those were your words, not mine...

(05-11-2009 05:32 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Has Obama cut off information to Israel?
Lack of communication 'not normal practice'

---------
Posted: May 10, 2009
6:10 pm Eastern


By Aaron Klein
2009 WorldNetDaily


JERUSALEM – Unlike the Bush administration, the staff of President Obama is not coordinating its policy on Iran or the greater Middle East with Israel and has not been informing the Jewish state of its plans or recent diplomatic developments in the Mideast, according to sources in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office.

Back to the topic at hand:

EXCLUSIVE: U.S., Israel forming working group on Iran

Quote:The United States and Israel are quietly forming a high-level working group to assess the progress of President Obama's outreach to Iran and to share intelligence about the Islamic Republic's nuclear weapons program, officials familiar with the two countries' deliberations said Tuesday.

The agreement, reached during Monday's meeting between Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Mr. Obama, gives the U.S. a clear channel for communicating with the new Israeli government and a vehicle for keeping tabs on any military contingency plans Israel might make if diplomacy fails and Iran develops nuclear weapons capability.

Also interesting links: RAND Study: "Unrealistic" to Believe U.S.-Iran Talks Will Change Tehran's Behavior, Report: Iran a Military Paper Tiger (interesting because it contradicts everything I've said about Iran, namely that Hezbollah and Hamas will let Iran twist in the wind if push comes to shove).

(05-20-2009 08:35 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(05-20-2009 08:10 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(05-20-2009 08:05 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  They've been fighting the war in the Middle East for thousands of years - long before the birth of Jesus. Rome couldn't stop it. The Crusades couldn't stop it. I don't know why people seem to think the USA can solve it. Intelligence is irrelevant in the face of hatreds passed down from generation to generation. There is no intelligence in such matters...

They've been fighting wars in Europe for thousands of years. Maybe we shoulda just let those Jews fend for themselves?

I'm amazed at the stupid conclusions you make from insufficient evidence. Read my words again, and run them through a semantic wringer to force the meaning of my words into your brain...

I said nothing about letting Jews fend for themselves. Those were your words, not mine...

The entire premise of your argument was that they've been fighting in the ME for thousands of years, there's nothing we can do. My response was that they've been fighting in Europe for thousands of years, maybe we should have stayed out of WWI and WWII? You know, since they've been fighting for thousands of years?

(05-20-2009 08:35 PM)I45owl Wrote:  Back to the topic at hand:

EXCLUSIVE: U.S., Israel forming working group on Iran

I can only presume that the Messiah finally realized what people have been telling him, and other liberals, for years....including what was learned from Bush's two terms. I.e., you cannot rationalize with radicals.

(05-20-2009 08:10 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(05-20-2009 08:05 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  They've been fighting the war in the Middle East for thousands of years - long before the birth of Jesus. Rome couldn't stop it. The Crusades couldn't stop it. I don't know why people seem to think the USA can solve it. Intelligence is irrelevant in the face of hatreds passed down from generation to generation. There is no intelligence in such matters...

They've been fighting wars in Europe for thousands of years. Maybe we shoulda just let those Jews fend for themselves?

Maybe if we had stayed the hell out of WW1 there would not have been a "final solution" to worry about. There are always consequences to intervention...some good..some bad. I'd say our track record is somewhat mixed on this.

(05-20-2009 08:44 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(05-20-2009 08:35 PM)I45owl Wrote:  Back to the topic at hand:

EXCLUSIVE: U.S., Israel forming working group on Iran

I can only presume that the Messiah finally realized what people have been telling him, and other liberals, for years....including what was learned from Bush's two terms. I.e., you cannot rationalize with radicals.

I wouldn't agree to that conclusion yet. On the other hand, Obama does not seem to be as anti-Israeli as his fellow travelers would seem to be. I just don't know yet.

(05-20-2009 08:42 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(05-20-2009 08:35 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(05-20-2009 08:10 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(05-20-2009 08:05 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  They've been fighting the war in the Middle East for thousands of years - long before the birth of Jesus. Rome couldn't stop it. The Crusades couldn't stop it. I don't know why people seem to think the USA can solve it. Intelligence is irrelevant in the face of hatreds passed down from generation to generation. There is no intelligence in such matters...

They've been fighting wars in Europe for thousands of years. Maybe we shoulda just let those Jews fend for themselves?

I'm amazed at the stupid conclusions you make from insufficient evidence. Read my words again, and run them through a semantic wringer to force the meaning of my words into your brain...

I said nothing about letting Jews fend for themselves. Those were your words, not mine...

The entire premise of your argument was that they've been fighting in the ME for thousands of years, there's nothing we can do. My response was that they've been fighting in Europe for thousands of years, maybe we should have stayed out of WWI and WWII? You know, since they've been fighting for thousands of years?

Their have been wars all over the world since humans first appeared. But only in the Middle East has the SAME war been ongoing. The Jews and Arabs are still fighting over the differences between the sons of Abraham. The Jews descend from one son, the Arabs from the other. Islam is still fighting about the division between the 2 sons of Mohammad. Sunni's follow the teaching of one son, the Shi'ite's the other. Christians shoved their arguments into the Middle East during the 2 Crusades. Those wars are still ongoing...

I will grant you that most of the wars in the world since WWI are the result of stupid decisions made at the end of WWI. But you're talking about less than a century of history. The previous wars in Europe were over different issues. However, European conflicts boil down to one group or nation wanting the resources another people hold, so they go to war to take it for themselves...

The war in the Middle East is simply a war in which one side hates the other implacably, and neither side remembers why. They've held the hate so long, they've forgotten the real reason why...

(05-20-2009 08:57 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Maybe if we had stayed the hell out of WW1 there would not have been a "final solution" to worry about. There are always consequences to intervention...some good..some bad. I'd say our track record is somewhat mixed on this.

The absolute stupidity of your arguments are stunning. Anyone can pick a moment in history and say" If this did not happen then this would not have happened". Just think, if an asteroid hadn't hit the earth at Chicxulub 65 million years ago, we would not have to endure your mind-numbing hyperbole.

(05-20-2009 09:30 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(05-20-2009 08:57 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Maybe if we had stayed the hell out of WW1 there would not have been a "final solution" to worry about. There are always consequences to intervention...some good..some bad. I'd say our track record is somewhat mixed on this.

The absolute stupidity of your arguments are stunning. Anyone can pick a moment in history and say" If this did not happen then this would not have happened". Just think, if an asteroid hadn't hit the earth at Chicxulub 65 million years ago, we would not have to endure your mind-numbing hyperbole.

Not making an argument my friend...just a comment. Its pretty obvious that once again you just disagree with me and instead of stating your case for why you disagree in civil manner, you choose to resort to your usual personal attack mode. If you are trying to get me to stoop to the same...It will not work. I suggest that you put me on your ignore list so you will not have to endure my posts....thanks

BTW...I understand your argument...but...your example is not one of interventionism but of a natural occurrence. I was referring to mans interventionism and it's consequences. Do you deny this cause and effect relationship? Do you not think that people should learn from these relationships and use them in factoring current decision making?

(05-20-2009 09:30 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(05-20-2009 08:57 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Maybe if we had stayed the hell out of WW1 there would not have been a "final solution" to worry about.

There are always consequences to intervention...some good..some bad. I'd say our track record is somewhat mixed on this.

The absolute stupidity of your arguments are stunning. Anyone can pick a moment in history and say" If this did not happen then this would not have happened". Just think, if an asteroid hadn't hit the earth at Chicxulub 65 million years ago, we would not have to endure your mind-numbing hyperbole.

No Fo, Hitler was coming no matter what we did in WWI.

When he was a Grunt Soldier in that very war, he had already dreamed of the Perfect World and the Pure Blood Aryan Race.

Hitler was a mixed bag of Schizoid, Manic, Narcissistic, Wildly Distrusting, and just simply Brutal in almost a "Pure Sociopathic" type of way.

Hitler would have never stopped in WWII and would not have been satisfied with owning all of Europe - - he had already worked out a plan to annihilate the Japanese once their usefulness was finished. They were simply Slanted Eyed Jews as far as Hitler was concerned and he intended to cleanse to Earth of them when their guard was down.

We had to intervene in WWI & WWII for our own Security as well as the security of our allies.

Just think, NAZI Germany would be 5 times the size of China if the Nazi's had managed to conquer all they surveyed .... now that's pretty scary.

Without us in WWII, the Nazi's would have even been able to easily regroup and conquer Russia and most surely China as well.

China was having trouble holding off Japanese Troops during WWII and the Chinese were getting slaughtered by a country 1/10th its size. Just think what Hitlers Army could have done to China if Japan was overtaking her with such ease.

The Nazi's even ruled the Deserts of Africa with an iron fist.

I would hate to be living in a Nazi Germany controlled world ....

The Obama Controlled World is just about as bad.

.

(05-21-2009 11:07 AM)Tripster Wrote:  

(05-20-2009 09:30 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(05-20-2009 08:57 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Maybe if we had stayed the hell out of WW1 there would not have been a "final solution" to worry about.

There are always consequences to intervention...some good..some bad. I'd say our track record is somewhat mixed on this.

The absolute stupidity of your arguments are stunning. Anyone can pick a moment in history and say" If this did not happen then this would not have happened". Just think, if an asteroid hadn't hit the earth at Chicxulub 65 million years ago, we would not have to endure your mind-numbing hyperbole.

No Fo, Hitler was coming no matter what we did in WWI.

When he was a Grunt Soldier in that very war, he had already dreamed of the Perfect World and the Pure Blood Aryan Race.

Hitler was a mixed bag of Schizoid, Manic, Narcissistic, Wildly Distrusting, and just simply Brutal in almost a "Pure Sociopathic" type of way.

Hitler would have never stopped in WWII and would not have been satisfied with owning all of Europe - - he had already worked out a plan to annihilate the Japanese once their usefulness was finished. They were simply Slanted Eyed Jews as far as Hitler was concerned and he intended to cleanse to Earth of them when their guard was down.

We had to intervene in WWI & WWII for our own Security as well as the security of our allies.

Just think, NAZI Germany would be 5 times the size of China if the Nazi's had managed to conquer all they surveyed .... now that's pretty scary.

Without us in WWII, the Nazi's would have even been able to easily regroup and conquer Russia and most surely China as well.

China was having trouble holding off Japanese Troops during WWII and the Chinese were getting slaughtered by a country 1/10th its size. Just think what Hitlers Army could have done to China if Japan was overtaking her with such ease.

The Nazi's even ruled the Deserts of Africa with an iron fist.

I would hate to be living in a Nazi Germany controlled world ....

The Obama Controlled World is just about as bad.

.

I'm sorry Trip...The rise of Hitler was a direct result of the Versailles treaty that ended WW1...which I think we actually did not sign on to...anyway... the harshness of the treaty, particularly the war reparations, caused the massive hyperinflation and the subsequent destruction of the German economy. It was this...that set the stage for the national socialists and Hitlers rise to power.

I agree that intervention into WWII was necessary...Unfortunately it was simply a continuation of the the first war that we were "sucked" into. I still maintain that our initial entrance into that war was the mistake.

I realize that we are allies and have an obligation to help...but...Of course I'm not a fan of alliances...just as several of the founders were not.

All this is just conjecture and moot anyway...not meant to become a flaming argument.

(05-21-2009 11:07 AM)Tripster Wrote:  Hitler was coming no matter what we did in WWI.

That's not necessarily true. Who knows what might have happened had Hilter's college art teacher liked his work, instead of recommending that he become an architect. Had he gone into art, history could have been radically different...

(05-20-2009 09:24 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  They've been fighting the war in the Middle East for thousands of years - long before the birth of Jesus. Rome couldn't stop it. The Crusades couldn't stop it. I don't know why people seem to think the USA can solve it. Intelligence is irrelevant in the face of hatreds passed down from generation to generation. There is no intelligence in such matters...

A telling statistic I heard earlier this year (too lazy to back it up for now) is that the conflict in Gaza in January caused the highest death toll of any single battle/war between Israel and the Arab states in the 60+ years of Israel's existence. And, that was something less than about 1500 casualties. This is a long, slow burning conflict...

(05-20-2009 09:24 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  The war in the Middle East is simply a war in which one side hates the other implacably, and neither side remembers why. They've held the hate so long, they've forgotten the real reason why...

If that were the case, then it wouldn't necessarily be a religious conflict. The reason why in this case has a great deal to do with religious mandates about ceding territory that was once ruled by Muslims to be a non-Muslim dominion and religious mandates about the land being given to the Israelis by God.

(05-21-2009 11:37 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-20-2009 09:24 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  The war in the Middle East is simply a war in which one side hates the other implacably, and neither side remembers why. They've held the hate so long, they've forgotten the real reason why...

If that were the case, then it wouldn't necessarily be a religious conflict. The reason why in this case has a great deal to do with religious mandates about ceding territory that was once ruled by Muslims to be a non-Muslim dominion and religious mandates about the land being given to the Israelis by God.

Religious differences have overshadowed the original conflict, but the basis for the religious war goes back to when Mohammad came to Jerusalem to make peace with the Jews. He presented his peace proposal, and then went to pray while they debated. In those days all Arabs faced Jerusalem to pray. Mohammad was still at prayer when the response came from the Jewish elders that there could be no peace since the Arabs were descended from the wrong son of Abraham. Upon hearing this, Mohammad turned 180°, facing Mecca, continued his prayer, and went off into the desert to seek a new path. This journey is now known as the Haaj, and Arabs face Mecca to this day...

The history of the Middle East is so muddled and convoluted that it often appears to be other than it is. But if you look deep enough, you'll find the same fight has been ongoing forever...

(05-22-2009 08:24 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Religious differences have overshadowed the original conflict, but the basis for the religious war goes back to when Mohammad came to Jerusalem to make peace with the Jews. He presented his peace proposal, and then went to pray while they debated. In those days all Arabs faced Jerusalem to pray. Mohammad was still at prayer when the response came from the Jewish elders that there could be no peace since the Arabs were descended from the wrong son of Abraham. Upon hearing this, Mohammad turned 180°, facing Mecca, continued his prayer, and went off into the desert to seek a new path. This journey is now known as the Haaj, and Arabs face Mecca to this day...

The history of the Middle East is so muddled and convoluted that it often appears to be other than it is. But if you look deep enough, you'll find the same fight has been ongoing forever...

Then that's not "fighting for thousands of years as Muhammed was born around 600 AD. The friggin' Europeans have been fighting longer than that.

Bush administration was perhaps the most pro-Isreal asdministration ever. Bush understood exactly what its like for Isreal. 9/11 showed the US what Isreal faces every day. The pictures of Palestinians cheering and dancing in the streets on 9/11 is something that Americans will never forget. Palestinians are lucky we didn't bring the wrath of god on them like we did Iraq and Afghanistan. They elected a bunch of terrorists to represent them. Obama was a long time member of a church that gave a lifetime achievement award to Louis Farrakahn. It wasn't until an eclection year that he left that church. Says a lot about Obama and his decision making. Says a lot about the Democrats who voted for him.

Let Palestinian made bombs blow up your family and loved ones and let's see how you'd feel.

(05-22-2009 08:34 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(05-22-2009 08:24 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Religious differences have overshadowed the original conflict, but the basis for the religious war goes back to when Mohammad came to Jerusalem to make peace with the Jews. He presented his peace proposal, and then went to pray while they debated. In those days all Arabs faced Jerusalem to pray. Mohammad was still at prayer when the response came from the Jewish elders that there could be no peace since the Arabs were descended from the wrong son of Abraham. Upon hearing this, Mohammad turned 180°, facing Mecca, continued his prayer, and went off into the desert to seek a new path. This journey is now known as the Haaj, and Arabs face Mecca to this day...

The history of the Middle East is so muddled and convoluted that it often appears to be other than it is. But if you look deep enough, you'll find the same fight has been ongoing forever...

Then that's not "fighting for thousands of years as Muhammed was born around 600 AD. The friggin' Europeans have been fighting longer than that.

Do you need glasses? Abraham was born long before 600 A.D...

(05-22-2009 09:34 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Let Palestinian made bombs blow up your family and loved ones and let's see how you'd feel.

Try being Lebanese, like my wife. Lebanon decided to help the Palestinians, and mediate peace in the region by accepting them into their nation as refugees. For their efforts, Israel and the PLO destroyed the nation. Beirut was once known as the Paris of the Middle East. Now it's a ruin...

(05-22-2009 08:24 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Religious differences have overshadowed the original conflict, but the basis for the religious war goes back to when Mohammad came to Jerusalem to make peace with the Jews. He presented his peace proposal, and then went to pray while they debated. In those days all Arabs faced Jerusalem to pray. Mohammad was still at prayer when the response came from the Jewish elders that there could be no peace since the Arabs were descended from the wrong son of Abraham. Upon hearing this, Mohammad turned 180°, facing Mecca, continued his prayer, and went off into the desert to seek a new path. This journey is now known as the Haaj, and Arabs face Mecca to this day...

The history of the Middle East is so muddled and convoluted that it often appears to be other than it is. But if you look deep enough, you'll find the same fight has been ongoing forever...

The same peace is still offered today. If only the rest of the world would take Islam up on their offer, we could have said peace. Islam=Submit, not Peace, the lie we are always told. The Jews could have submited and they would have had peace. Well temporarily, until the true nature of Muhammad come out. We could have peace today if we would only submit. Personnally, I would rather die fighting these savage animals.