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Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #401
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-07-2025 05:55 PM)OneSockUp Wrote:  
(11-07-2025 01:35 PM)JRsec Wrote:  ESPN has had a handle on the moves since they discovered the power of their own valuations of the product. The essentially have assembled the ACC and added to the SEC to get what they wanted for nearly the last 30 years.

The SEC is not run by ESPN.

The SEC will not make a generations-long decision because of its current media partner.

The SEC will do what is in the best interest of its member institutions.

That may coincide with the best interests of ESPN -- as it did with Texas A&M, Missouri, Texas, and Oklahoma. But if there is a situation where ESPN wants the SEC to bring in a school that wouldn't benefit the league, the league will stand firm.

It's a matter of supply and demand: There is only one SEC, but there are plenty of networks and services begging for live content, and the SEC has proven itself time and again to be king in that realm.

(The ACC has never had that luxury. They could be bullied because they needed the ACC Network, and they needed to keep the league together -- so they needed to cow-tow to the Mouse.)

What a textbook case of winning a straw man fight.

The SEC and ESPN interests have aligned. They've been willing partners in as much as their objectives have been aligned.

Because of that all of the decisions made have been beneficial for the SEC long term and will continue to be. And they have been beneficial for their members. We don't by far earn the most total revenue without good reason. We kept it regional, maximized the fervor for sports in the region, and will continue to do so, and have grown a national audience that leads the nation without having to have members from outside the Old South or Southwest. In 1990-1 the presidents made a pick list after examining all regional schools and schools in Texas which they saw as the best possible market additions. We've acquired 4 of the original 6, and their secondary list existed if and when the stability of the ACC was threatened. North Carolina was then a priority and has remained one. Virginia at that time wouldn't be considered unless North Carolina joined. The two together were seen as a completion of the SEC's targeted market reach and as academic prizes.

Therefore, the SEC hasn't had to knuckle under to ESPN on anything. And if North Carolina and Virginia wind up in the SEC it will be because the SEC wanted them as secondary targets in 1991. That's why the SEC was interested in Clemson and Arkansas. Arkansas was a bridge to Texas, Texas A&M and through them Oklahoma. Clemson, which inquired, was to be a bridge to North Carolina and when Clemson withdrew interest in 1991 South Carolina took their place. Tennessee, Georgia, South Carolina, and Kentucky in a less direct way were all seen as the lures for North Carolina and from there possibly into Virginia.

To date the SEC's desired objectives and those of ESPN have lined up. Missouri happened because David Boren the president at Oklahoma was insistent that the SEC take Oklahoma State. A&M had already announced their intent to join and the SEC had to fulfill the two new markets clause for a contract renegotiation. ESPN allegedly suggested Missouri, their president knew and called Machen, and here they are.

ESPN does have a revenue model to protect. North Carolina and Virginia as largish markets are very much a part of that (21 million combined). Neither of those is alien to the long-range plans of the SEC. A second Florida school had been an SEC priority since before 2011. Every conference member wanted to play games in the state of Florida for recruiting purposes. UF couldn't handle all of the requests and was certainly limited by divisional play. FSU delivers the necessary control over that market for both ESPN and the SEC.

So, 3 of the now proposed targets aren't in conflict between SEC desires and a possible ESPN need to keep them secured. Say what you want to about ESPN, but they have been a much more cooperative media partner for the SEC than CBS, which didn't try to cooperate at all, and have apparently taken those same habits to the Big Ten. They haven't pushed anyone on us we didn't want. And there's a reason for that. We gave them the list of potential members we would like to have. They to date have managed most of them. There is no reason to believe that won't continue.

All that's left to carry on about is Duke. Slive was receptive to them as a travel partner with UNC in 2011. But UNC made it clear it was only something they would desire to do if the ACC lost more schools than Maryland. They didn't.

The operative question now is will they still be the desired companion and would the SEC want them. Contrary to recent rumblings on this site, I think the presidents would be interested in having their association. We'll find out soon enough. ESPN has not bullied the SEC ever. CBS refused to work with us on a simple matter and they got the boot.

The ACC worked willingly with ESPN because ESPN helped them raid the Big East before the Big East raided them. ESPN helped them land Miami. And perhaps they have even helped to cover the exit of a few which want to leave with the additions of California, Stanford and S.M.U.. They did help secure the Notre Dame deal which strengthened the football profile a little bit too.

The additions of North Carolina and Virginia not only secures a larger market for the SEC, adds to the basketball profile, adds two schools near a Michigan level of AAU standing to the SEC, but also puts them in position to work on grants with other SEC schools like Texas, Florida, Vanderbilt, A&M and Missouri, and that brings in far more grants revenue than football brings into the athletic department. Duke in that regard is massive in ways which will never touch grass or pine. And if the SEC has the athletic chops to cover Duke, and it does easily, what an association with Duke could add for SEC institutions would be huge.

So out of North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State and Duke the only one which arguably would be a drag on SEC football is Duke. Well using that logic if the SEC stands at 20 the ratio of athletic powers to weaker academically minded institutions will remain exactly the same. We had 9 solid schools athletically when Vandy was the only laggard. The SEC wasn't dragged through the mud for that anymore than the 10 team Big Ten was for having Northwestern.

All that's changed since 1967 is that Purdue isn't playing at a top level, Vandy has stepped it up, and the SEC presidents would now gladly make room for Duke. And none of it is an overall drag on the best sports conference in the United States. ESPN has been a partner, not a bully. We've both prospered unbelievably and have done so by following Harvey Schiller and Roy Kramer's roadmap and vision.

You don't hear any of the original 10 SEC complaining about what has transpired and that goes for Alabama as well. We all know we have it better now than we've ever had it.

I've got nothing against Clemson, I do like Kansas's fit with the new West in the conference, but once the move to 20 has settled in, once the CFP is format is hammered out, and once basketball is more fully monetized, and it won't be by just a little bit, then perhaps we'll find out if we are to grow larger than 20. If so I'd be happy to see Clemson in the mix with Kansas.

And while I am assuming 20 due to who it is that has been doing the talking and who it was that did the suing, 18 is still a possibility with the right two teams. But looking at what seems to be the possibilities based upon who initiated conversations, it looks a lot more like 20 to me.

Add to that the added inventory of games the SEC will have to sell, and you might learn later about ESPN possibly subleasing them to Netflix or others in the future. Twenty schools playing 9 or 10 conference games will yield, no bye weeks accounted for, 180 to 200 conference football games and some OOC games. FSU boosts the value of the Football schedule, and UNC and Duke do the same for hoops. That's 360 conference basketball games not counting the SEC tournament. More inventory = more revenue for all sports, even baseball.

Brighter minds than any on this board, self included, are working on this in Birmingham and Storrs. Don't be surprised if the SEC lands all 3 of the hoops darlings of the ACC and FSU. ESPN keeps what they have. The SEC gets 3 of what they want with the 4th highly palatable to the presidents, and ESPN gets to add football brands and new states to the ACC.

The whole point of this argument has been that I firmly believe the SEC sees the value in two markets they have wanted, a school that puts the market control of Florida squarely in their hands for when ESPN is one day gone, and is willing to benefit from an association with an academic brand. And that they already know what kind of money they will make from it.

But this board has members who swallowed football only hook line and sinker, can't see the value in Virginia and Duke, and balk at the notion.

Meanwhile Sankey's stated position has been to dominate in all revenue sports.

I have more confidence in our Conference leadership and ESPN than I do in the posters here. Frank the Tank does a great job of explaining Big Ten positions. I would think he likely has more confidence in the Big Ten leadership than in posters here too.

But that's going to happen when you have precious little information from which to form an opinion and those sources are beat writers who are the last to know anything unless they learn to hold their tongues until they are greenlighted, or bloggers who are usually supplementing their incomes from their basements.

And if there is one thing I know well it is the protocol for how this all happens. There is nothing but a business mentality by the presidents. The numbers and angles are laid out by the Commissioner or his staff, questions are entertained, discussion is lively, but at the end they vote. The vote is binding and they go home trusting the procedure. If there is a learning curve it is for the new institutions' presidents who are usually pleasantly surprised by the decorum and civility exercised in the decisions. In short they don't act like fans. They act like presidents of large state schools and important private institutions.

When other is suggested, stated, or insisted upon, I will continue to call it hooey.
(This post was last modified: 11-07-2025 10:47 PM by JRsec.)
11-07-2025 10:29 PM
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WhidbeyWolf Offline
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Post: #402
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-07-2025 12:55 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-07-2025 12:35 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  
(11-07-2025 11:01 AM)WhidbeyWolf Wrote:  
(11-06-2025 09:12 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  
(11-06-2025 05:55 PM)WhidbeyWolf Wrote:  I hope that's not an academic similarity you're making. LOL

Why in the world would you think I was making an academics comparison. Read my post and the post I was replying to, we were talking about how recent B1G additions affected their on-field product. Even the B1G, with all of their supposed Academics focus, took Oregon over Stanford in 2023. Let that sink in for a moment, and then tell us how much importance they actually place on the Academics of new members. And isn’t it funny that 3 of the last 4 SEC additions were AAU, and the 4th has 8 National Titles?

Anybody who wants to know why I’m so skeptical of adding a bunch from the ACC, just look at the schools the SEC has added over the years.
My bad. But I'll note that my local adopted Huskies, as big a school as it is, got their Invite not mostly by athletics. I just thought it was ironic.
I'll move on.

Washington packs in 70k for games.
They finished #2 the year they were invited.
681-447-32 all time record
39 bowls
15 weeks at #1
Great location on a 7m pop state that they dominate
#4 in total Rose Bowls and Rose Bowl wins
84-35 record last 10 years, with 5 double digit wins seasons and a chance this year, too
5 top 12 finishes in past 9 years
Oh yeah, they’re also one of the best Academic Institutions in the world

They got added with Oregon, a school that is, ahem, a bit further down the Academics pecking order. You wanna know why Washington was added instead of Cal or Stanford? It wasn’t bc of their admittedly great Academics, bc Cal and Stanford are better.

Washington is a better version of Wisconsin. If they weren’t so dang far away, they’d have been very high on the SEC’s list, too.

Agreed. UW is a top 20 football program. Bottom of the top 20, but definitely there.
After their Natty game, they immediately lost the coach who brought them those couple of nice years. Maybe they weren't committed enough to football, to outbid Alabama. But they've since rebounded nicely.
Husky stadium is a very nice experience.
11-07-2025 10:40 PM
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Post: #403
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
You comment on Arkansas is hooey. Arkansas was a national power back in 1990. Maybe you have forgotten. They were a prize in themselves. They were probably 2nd only to Alabama in national prominence at the time among the SEC-12. 3 times in the 60s the Texas-Arkansas game decided a national title.
60s top winning (SEC 12 schools) %
1. Alabama 85-12-3
3. Arkansas 80-19-1 (Texas tops in SWC was #2)
70s top winning %
2. Alabama 103-16-1
16. Arkansas 79-31-5 (Texas tops in SWC at #11)
80s top winning %
7. Georgia 88-27-4
10. Auburn 86-31-1
11T. Arkansas 85-32-2 (tops in SWC)
11T. Alabama 85-32-2

And in basketball, they made 22 NCAAs and 2 NITs in 25 years, including a title among 4 final 4s and 2 elite 8s.
Arkansas just fell apart in football after joining the SEC. They were #65 at 3 games below .500 in the 90s. Of course they didn't have a good replacement for Ken Hatfield who was an excellent replacement for Lou Holtz who was an excellent replacement for Frank Broyles.
(This post was last modified: 11-07-2025 11:45 PM by bullet.)
11-07-2025 11:42 PM
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Post: #404
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-07-2025 11:42 PM)bullet Wrote:  You comment on Arkansas is hooey. Arkansas was a national power back in 1990. Maybe you have forgotten. They were a prize in themselves. They were probably 2nd only to Alabama in national prominence at the time among the SEC-12. 3 times in the 60s the Texas-Arkansas game decided a national title.
60s top winning (SEC 12 schools) %
1. Alabama 85-12-3
3. Arkansas 80-19-1 (Texas tops in SWC was #2)
70s top winning %
2. Alabama 103-16-1
16. Arkansas 79-31-5 (Texas tops in SWC at #11)
80s top winning %
7. Georgia 88-27-4
10. Auburn 86-31-1
11T. Arkansas 85-32-2 (tops in SWC)
11T. Alabama 85-32-2

And in basketball, they made 22 NCAAs and 2 NITs in 25 years, including a title among 4 final 4s and 2 elite 8s.
Arkansas just fell apart in football after joining the SEC. They were #65 at 3 games below .500 in the 90s. Of course they didn't have a good replacement for Ken Hatfield who was an excellent replacement for Lou Holtz who was an excellent replacement for Frank Broyles.
You are overreacting based on a false assumption. Arkansas with Frank Broyles helping the SEC in discussions with Texas, A&M and then silent partner of Texas Oklahoma was absolutely an important bridge to that area. I've pointed out before how solid Arkansas was an addition on their own merit. That I didn't mention it in this explanation was not a slight, but neither was that information germane to the discussion at hand. Broyles was key to the whole thing then and later. Clemson wasn't where they are now, but they had one a Natty in the early 80's. The point Bullet was that the SEC was building to go West and up the East coast and it was intentional then and still is. I've also commented many times before how good Nolan Richardson's teams were. Also irrelevant to this discussion.
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2025 12:07 AM by JRsec.)
11-08-2025 12:04 AM
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Post: #405
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-07-2025 10:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  So out of North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State and Duke the only one which arguably would be a drag on SEC football is Duke.

Seriously? The best football conference in history would not be dragged down by Virginia and North Carolina programs that have combined for two ranked seasons since Boston College joined the ACC over 20 years ago???

01-wingedeagle
11-08-2025 08:02 AM
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Post: #406
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-08-2025 08:02 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  
(11-07-2025 10:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  So out of North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State and Duke the only one which arguably would be a drag on SEC football is Duke.

Seriously? The best football conference in history would not be dragged down by Virginia and North Carolina programs that have combined for two ranked seasons since Boston College joined the ACC over 20 years ago???

01-wingedeagle

it only makes sense to add NC/VA. they expand the map without outrunning the footprint. FSu UM, Clemson won'f increase eyeballs enough to matter.

That said FSU, UM, Clemson likely make sense for B10 at reduced rate like Or/WA got.
11-08-2025 08:49 AM
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Post: #407
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-08-2025 08:49 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 08:02 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  
(11-07-2025 10:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  So out of North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State and Duke the only one which arguably would be a drag on SEC football is Duke.

Seriously? The best football conference in history would not be dragged down by Virginia and North Carolina programs that have combined for two ranked seasons since Boston College joined the ACC over 20 years ago???

01-wingedeagle

it only makes sense to add NC/VA. they expand the map without outrunning the footprint. FSu UM, Clemson won'f increase eyeballs enough to matter.

That said FSU, UM, Clemson likely make sense for B10 at reduced rate like Or/WA got.

So drop Alabama-Georgia; Alabama-LSU; Georgia-Texas; Florida-Tennessee, so you can pair those schools with UNC and UVA?

You significantly dilute the schedule with just those two. Paired with FSU and Clemson, its fine. But alone, no way.
11-08-2025 10:28 AM
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Post: #408
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-08-2025 10:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 08:49 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 08:02 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  
(11-07-2025 10:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  So out of North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State and Duke the only one which arguably would be a drag on SEC football is Duke.

Seriously? The best football conference in history would not be dragged down by Virginia and North Carolina programs that have combined for two ranked seasons since Boston College joined the ACC over 20 years ago???

01-wingedeagle

it only makes sense to add NC/VA. they expand the map without outrunning the footprint. FSu UM, Clemson won'f increase eyeballs enough to matter.

That said FSU, UM, Clemson likely make sense for B10 at reduced rate like Or/WA got.

So drop Alabama-Georgia; Alabama-LSU; Georgia-Texas; Florida-Tennessee, so you can pair those schools with UNC and UVA?

You significantly dilute the schedule with just those two. Paired with FSU and Clemson, its fine. But alone, no way.
That's a red herring. With 20 schools and setting your own scheduling you pick up one of those games a year. They can be substituted on someone's schedule for Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Mississippi State and somebody gets FSU. This is the lamest and most ridiculous line of reasoning ever. If anything, all of the leaders would be happy at the end of the day to have one conference game that was middling to weak. Hell, how many does the average Big Ten schedule have on them? You do realize that by going to 9 conference games with 20 schools that even if you counted them as weak games on the schedule that they would still be better draws than one of the replaced buy games, and if ESPN is paying for them they are not a drag on the media revenue (which they aren't anyway due to the market addition), and they all would add to the ticket price and concessions for anyone's home game over that of a buy game.
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2025 12:09 PM by JRsec.)
11-08-2025 11:56 AM
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Post: #409
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-08-2025 11:56 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 10:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 08:49 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 08:02 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  
(11-07-2025 10:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  So out of North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State and Duke the only one which arguably would be a drag on SEC football is Duke.

Seriously? The best football conference in history would not be dragged down by Virginia and North Carolina programs that have combined for two ranked seasons since Boston College joined the ACC over 20 years ago???

01-wingedeagle

it only makes sense to add NC/VA. they expand the map without outrunning the footprint. FSu UM, Clemson won'f increase eyeballs enough to matter.

That said FSU, UM, Clemson likely make sense for B10 at reduced rate like Or/WA got.

So drop Alabama-Georgia; Alabama-LSU; Georgia-Texas; Florida-Tennessee, so you can pair those schools with UNC and UVA?

You significantly dilute the schedule with just those two. Paired with FSU and Clemson, its fine. But alone, no way.
That's a red herring. With 20 schools and setting your own scheduling you pick up one of those games a year. They can be substituted on someone's schedule for Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Mississippi State and somebody gets FSU. This is the lamest and most ridiculous line of reasoning ever. If anything, all of the leaders would be happy at the end of the day to have one conference game that was middling to weak. Hell, how many does the average Big Ten schedule have on them? You do realize that by going to 9 conference games with 20 schools that even if you counted them as weak games on the schedule that they would still be better draws than one of the replaced buy games, and if ESPN is paying for them they are not a drag on the media revenue (which they aren't anyway due to the market addition), and they all would add to the ticket price and concessions for anyone's home game over that of a buy game.

An argument can be made that any school the SEC invites that has a large and intense fanbase and has a solid and competent financial base of support would probably not be a middling to weak program most of the time. Look at Vanderbilt and Mississippi St now. The money, exposure and just being in the best conference in the nation in football, baseball and quite possibly basketball moving forward just elevates all schools to a level where none are weak other than in down years. It's a new age of NFL-like parity in the SEC. And it just means more.
11-08-2025 01:24 PM
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Post: #410
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-08-2025 01:24 PM)Lurker Above Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 11:56 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 10:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 08:49 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 08:02 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  Seriously? The best football conference in history would not be dragged down by Virginia and North Carolina programs that have combined for two ranked seasons since Boston College joined the ACC over 20 years ago???

01-wingedeagle

it only makes sense to add NC/VA. they expand the map without outrunning the footprint. FSu UM, Clemson won'f increase eyeballs enough to matter.

That said FSU, UM, Clemson likely make sense for B10 at reduced rate like Or/WA got.

So drop Alabama-Georgia; Alabama-LSU; Georgia-Texas; Florida-Tennessee, so you can pair those schools with UNC and UVA?

You significantly dilute the schedule with just those two. Paired with FSU and Clemson, its fine. But alone, no way.
That's a red herring. With 20 schools and setting your own scheduling you pick up one of those games a year. They can be substituted on someone's schedule for Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Mississippi State and somebody gets FSU. This is the lamest and most ridiculous line of reasoning ever. If anything, all of the leaders would be happy at the end of the day to have one conference game that was middling to weak. Hell, how many does the average Big Ten schedule have on them? You do realize that by going to 9 conference games with 20 schools that even if you counted them as weak games on the schedule that they would still be better draws than one of the replaced buy games, and if ESPN is paying for them they are not a drag on the media revenue (which they aren't anyway due to the market addition), and they all would add to the ticket price and concessions for anyone's home game over that of a buy game.

An argument can be made that any school the SEC invites that has a large and intense fanbase and has a solid and competent financial base of support would probably not be a middling to weak program most of the time. Look at Vanderbilt and Mississippi St now. The money, exposure and just being in the best conference in the nation in football, baseball and quite possibly basketball moving forward just elevates all schools to a level where none are weak other than in down years. It's a new age of NFL-like parity in the SEC. And it just means more.

That's absolutely correct! Brands, Markets, Academics, Competitiveness in all sports, it's all exactly what the Presidents and Sankey are looking for in new members. The same mentality was operative for the Texas and Oklahoma additions, for Texas A&M, and even Missouri, and was absolutely there for Arkansas in 1991-2. South Carolina was not immune to success either when they joined. You couldn't and wouldn't call any of them a bad addition or one the conference regrets. If they add North Carolina and Virginia, regardless of what some may think, they will have checked all of the boxes. Attendance, especially that which is impaired only by the capacity of the facilities, really only impacts the home revenue of those schools.

What's more the diaspora of UVa and UNC graduates into New England and New York and really all over, coupled with their hoops brand in areas which are basketball crazy only adds to their market reach, particularly in areas not normally reached by the SEC. Duke simply gloms on another national brand for that sport. The key however remains the 4th being F.S.U. to maintain control over the Florida market for ESPN, gain it for the SEC, and as a brand multiplier in football, though FSU adds to all sports as well. Whether it is that 4, or UNC, Duke, Clemson and FSU we stock winners into our conference either way. The first one however does add more in the way of market reach.
11-08-2025 01:40 PM
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Post: #411
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-08-2025 11:56 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 10:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 08:49 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 08:02 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  [quote='JRsec' pid='20403203' dateline='1762572583']

So out of North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State and Duke the only one which arguably would be a drag on SEC football is Duke.

Seriously? The best football conference in history would not be dragged down by Virginia and North Carolina programs that have combined for two ranked seasons since Boston College joined the ACC over 20 years ago???

01-wingedeagle

it only makes sense to add NC/VA. they expand the map without outrunning the footprint. FSu UM, Clemson won'f increase eyeballs enough to matter.

That said FSU, UM, Clemson likely make sense for B10 at reduced rate like Or/WA got.

So drop Alabama-Georgia; Alabama-LSU; Georgia-Texas; Florida-Tennessee, so you can pair those schools with UNC and UVA?

You significantly dilute the schedule with just those two. Paired with FSU and Clemson, its fine. But alone, no way.
That's a red herring. With 20 schools and setting your own scheduling you pick up one of those games a year. They can be substituted on someone's schedule for Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Mississippi State and somebody gets FSU. This is the lamest and most ridiculous line of reasoning ever. If anything, all of the leaders would be happy at the end of the day to have one conference game that was middling to weak. Hell, how many does the average Big Ten schedule have on them? You do realize that by going to 9 conference games with 20 schools that even if you counted them as weak games on the schedule that they would still be better draws than one of the replaced buy games, and if ESPN is paying for them they are not a drag on the media revenue (which they aren't anyway due to the market addition), and they all would add to the ticket price and concessions for anyone's home game over that of a buy game.
[/m
You are totally out of touch with reality. They always go for equitable scheduling, not for brand scheduling. Nobody wants to be at a disadvantage. And if you add two weak programs there is no way mathematically to avoid diluting schedules.
11-08-2025 01:47 PM
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Post: #412
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-08-2025 01:24 PM)Lurker Above Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 11:56 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 10:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 08:49 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 08:02 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  Seriously? The best football conference in history would not be dragged down by Virginia and North Carolina programs that have combined for two ranked seasons since Boston College joined the ACC over 20 years ago???

01-wingedeagle

it only makes sense to add NC/VA. they expand the map without outrunning the footprint. FSu UM, Clemson won'f increase eyeballs enough to matter.

That said FSU, UM, Clemson likely make sense for B10 at reduced rate like Or/WA got.

So drop Alabama-Georgia; Alabama-LSU; Georgia-Texas; Florida-Tennessee, so you can pair those schools with UNC and UVA?

You significantly dilute the schedule with just those two. Paired with FSU and Clemson, its fine. But alone, no way.
That's a red herring. With 20 schools and setting your own scheduling you pick up one of those games a year. They can be substituted on someone's schedule for Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Mississippi State and somebody gets FSU. This is the lamest and most ridiculous line of reasoning ever. If anything, all of the leaders would be happy at the end of the day to have one conference game that was middling to weak. Hell, how many does the average Big Ten schedule have on them? You do realize that by going to 9 conference games with 20 schools that even if you counted them as weak games on the schedule that they would still be better draws than one of the replaced buy games, and if ESPN is paying for them they are not a drag on the media revenue (which they aren't anyway due to the market addition), and they all would add to the ticket price and concessions for anyone's home game over that of a buy game.

An argument can be made that any school the SEC invites that has a large and intense fanbase and has a solid and competent financial base of support would probably not be a middling to weak program most of the time. Look at Vanderbilt and Mississippi St now. The money, exposure and just being in the best conference in the nation in football, baseball and quite possibly basketball moving forward just elevates all schools to a level where none are weak other than in down years. It's a new age of NFL-like parity in the SEC. And it just means more.

And the tv and stadium fans still have little interest in Mizzou and Vandy.
11-08-2025 01:50 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #413
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
You are totally out of touch with reality. They always go for equitable scheduling, not for brand scheduling. Nobody wants to be at a disadvantage. And if you add two weak programs there is no way mathematically to avoid diluting schedules.
[/quote]

Bullet you are unhinged for some reason. First, nobody is getting an unbalanced schedule, if anything it would be more balanced. Brands sell and we sell product in the Fall / Winter /Spring-Summer. We'll see who is out of touch with reality when it is done. This is the 4th realignment cycle, and I haven't missed on much in 30 years of it. What has been proposed has been echoed in a lot of places where the SEC tests its ideas with the public. And I hear it in my circles.

Just listen to yourself. Virginia is currently in the CFP rankings. North Carolina is a no brainer addition for both the SEC and Big Ten and is usually competitive in all sports. Duke is coveted by both conferences for academics and massive Winter brand all of which makes them acceptable in a multiple team add. Are we going to disagree about FSU too?

I don't post to be liked. That's why populist ideas aren't my bag. We have a boat load of vox populi posters here who believe if their buddies agree with them they are right. It's mostly due to the age of our posters shifting to the younger ones. Social media encourages group think. This is the only social media I do. No Facebook, no X, none of that crap. I'm interested in what is real, and what people who are in the know actually think.

Nothing has changed in the way of the SEC's plans since 1991 and the only hiccup was Missouri and that wasn't bad, and as a 2nd new market made sense when we couldn't just pull Oklahoma.

North Carolina for the SEC has been in the SEC's list of desires since 1991, or a little before. If you have North Carolina, then Virginia makes sense, and for the same reasons. Virginia won the national title in Basketball a few years back and is in the running for the CFP this year and is stellar in baseball most seasons. How many in the SEC already can lay claim to that kind of recency of success? If you want to disagree about Duke that's fine. I at least understand why people could/would feel that way. But stop and use the noodle and ask what Clemson brings to us that we don't already have except for half of the viewers in South Carolina, a state of 5 million. Now if I was just touting my personal preferences we would have Clemson as I think they fit us naturally, but objectively they don't add as much as North Carolina and Virginia, though they are a brand multiplier. And, with Clemson the SEC has the luxury of waiting to see if we grow more. Florida State is another no brainer if we can bring them in. But they are a no brainer because they give the SEC market control of Florida and that is more important than just being a brand multiplier.

I see nothing unreasonable about those selections, they all add in a collection of ways, and frankly nobody can touch our football product no matter who we may add now. Basketball dominance is within our grasp and three of those four add to that both in a deep history of championships, brand identity, and a contrast that makes all of our product look better.

Reality is in objectivity. But don't hold your breath waiting for me to change my take. I see solid rational reasons for those additions, admit there would be ambiguity over Duke, and am not going to do anything because the young folk disagree.
11-08-2025 02:19 PM
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Post: #414
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-08-2025 01:50 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 01:24 PM)Lurker Above Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 11:56 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 10:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 08:49 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  it only makes sense to add NC/VA. they expand the map without outrunning the footprint. FSu UM, Clemson won'f increase eyeballs enough to matter.

That said FSU, UM, Clemson likely make sense for B10 at reduced rate like Or/WA got.

So drop Alabama-Georgia; Alabama-LSU; Georgia-Texas; Florida-Tennessee, so you can pair those schools with UNC and UVA?

You significantly dilute the schedule with just those two. Paired with FSU and Clemson, its fine. But alone, no way.
That's a red herring. With 20 schools and setting your own scheduling you pick up one of those games a year. They can be substituted on someone's schedule for Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Mississippi State and somebody gets FSU. This is the lamest and most ridiculous line of reasoning ever. If anything, all of the leaders would be happy at the end of the day to have one conference game that was middling to weak. Hell, how many does the average Big Ten schedule have on them? You do realize that by going to 9 conference games with 20 schools that even if you counted them as weak games on the schedule that they would still be better draws than one of the replaced buy games, and if ESPN is paying for them they are not a drag on the media revenue (which they aren't anyway due to the market addition), and they all would add to the ticket price and concessions for anyone's home game over that of a buy game.

An argument can be made that any school the SEC invites that has a large and intense fanbase and has a solid and competent financial base of support would probably not be a middling to weak program most of the time. Look at Vanderbilt and Mississippi St now. The money, exposure and just being in the best conference in the nation in football, baseball and quite possibly basketball moving forward just elevates all schools to a level where none are weak other than in down years. It's a new age of NFL-like parity in the SEC. And it just means more.

And the tv and stadium fans still have little interest in Mizzou and Vandy.

That is so 2023 thinking. Maybe 2024. Definitely not 2025.
11-08-2025 02:27 PM
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bryanw1995 Offline
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Post: #415
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-08-2025 02:27 PM)Lurker Above Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 01:50 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 01:24 PM)Lurker Above Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 11:56 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 10:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  So drop Alabama-Georgia; Alabama-LSU; Georgia-Texas; Florida-Tennessee, so you can pair those schools with UNC and UVA?

You significantly dilute the schedule with just those two. Paired with FSU and Clemson, its fine. But alone, no way.
That's a red herring. With 20 schools and setting your own scheduling you pick up one of those games a year. They can be substituted on someone's schedule for Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Mississippi State and somebody gets FSU. This is the lamest and most ridiculous line of reasoning ever. If anything, all of the leaders would be happy at the end of the day to have one conference game that was middling to weak. Hell, how many does the average Big Ten schedule have on them? You do realize that by going to 9 conference games with 20 schools that even if you counted them as weak games on the schedule that they would still be better draws than one of the replaced buy games, and if ESPN is paying for them they are not a drag on the media revenue (which they aren't anyway due to the market addition), and they all would add to the ticket price and concessions for anyone's home game over that of a buy game.

An argument can be made that any school the SEC invites that has a large and intense fanbase and has a solid and competent financial base of support would probably not be a middling to weak program most of the time. Look at Vanderbilt and Mississippi St now. The money, exposure and just being in the best conference in the nation in football, baseball and quite possibly basketball moving forward just elevates all schools to a level where none are weak other than in down years. It's a new age of NFL-like parity in the SEC. And it just means more.

And the tv and stadium fans still have little interest in Mizzou and Vandy.

That is so 2023 thinking. Maybe 2024. Definitely not 2025.

Vanderbilt and Missouri aren't OUT, but they're able to pull eyeballs when they're competitive like they are now. More Ole Miss than Alabama perhaps, but still, they can carry their share of the load.
11-08-2025 02:42 PM
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Post: #416
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-08-2025 02:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  You are totally out of touch with reality. They always go for equitable scheduling, not for brand scheduling. Nobody wants to be at a disadvantage. And if you add two weak programs there is no way mathematically to avoid diluting schedules.
Quote:Bullet you are unhinged for some reason. First, nobody is getting an unbalanced schedule, if anything it would be more balanced. Brands sell and we sell product in the Fall / Winter /Spring-Summer. We'll see who is out of touch with reality when it is done. This is the 4th realignment cycle, and I haven't missed on much in 30 years of it. What has been proposed has been echoed in a lot of places where the SEC tests its ideas with the public. And I hear it in my circles.

Just listen to yourself. Virginia is currently in the CFP rankings. North Carolina is a no brainer addition for both the SEC and Big Ten and is usually competitive in all sports. Duke is coveted by both conferences for academics and massive Winter brand all of which makes them acceptable in a multiple team add. Are we going to disagree about FSU too?

I don't post to be liked. That's why populist ideas aren't my bag. We have a boat load of vox populi posters here who believe if their buddies agree with them they are right. It's mostly due to the age of our posters shifting to the younger ones. Social media encourages group think. This is the only social media I do. No Facebook, no X, none of that crap. I'm interested in what is real, and what people who are in the know actually think.

Nothing has changed in the way of the SEC's plans since 1991 and the only hiccup was Missouri and that wasn't bad, and as a 2nd new market made sense when we couldn't just pull Oklahoma.

North Carolina for the SEC has been in the SEC's list of desires since 1991, or a little before. If you have North Carolina, then Virginia makes sense, and for the same reasons. Virginia won the national title in Basketball a few years back and is in the running for the CFP this year and is stellar in baseball most seasons. How many in the SEC already can lay claim to that kind of recency of success? If you want to disagree about Duke that's fine. I at least understand why people could/would feel that way. But stop and use the noodle and ask what Clemson brings to us that we don't already have except for half of the viewers in South Carolina, a state of 5 million. Now if I was just touting my personal preferences we would have Clemson as I think they fit us naturally, but objectively they don't add as much as North Carolina and Virginia, though they are a brand multiplier. And, with Clemson the SEC has the luxury of waiting to see if we grow more. Florida State is another no brainer if we can bring them in. But they are a no brainer because they give the SEC market control of Florida and that is more important than just being a brand multiplier.

I see nothing unreasonable about those selections, they all add in a collection of ways, and frankly nobody can touch our football product no matter who we may add now. Basketball dominance is within our grasp and three of those four add to that both in a deep history of championships, brand identity, and a contrast that makes all of our product look better.

Reality is in objectivity. But don't hold your breath waiting for me to change my take. I see solid rational reasons for those additions, admit there would be ambiguity over Duke, and am not going to do anything because the young folk disagree.

It's hard to imagine UVA ever having the football Brand of Clemson, especially if they have to run the meat grinder of the SEC schedule. Or the fan support for that matter. UVA has lots of other pluses, like their Elite Academics, other sports as you mentioned, and Geography. Is that enough to push them ahead of Clemson and convince SEC schools looking for every way possible to bring in more revenues to help pay for that $25m hole that everybody just got in their budgets? It's hard to see how it could be. UVA might be a 4th if we decide against Miami or if Miami chooses the B1G, but the threat of B1G talking to them is wildly overblown. The B1G couldn't even agree on Stanford and Cal a couple years ago, and now they're going to jump UVA ahead of both of them, likely to placate a UNC that does nothing to boost their football? Come on. Clemson makes far more sense for the B1G today than UVA. It's smack dab in the middle of SEC country, it's a huge national Brand, and it's one of the very few schools that's been able to hold its own against the SEC over the past couple of decades.

If we're worried about the B1G, then we should target Clemson long before we even consider UVA.
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2025 02:50 PM by bryanw1995.)
11-08-2025 02:49 PM
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Post: #417
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-08-2025 01:40 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 01:24 PM)Lurker Above Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 11:56 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 10:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 08:49 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  it only makes sense to add NC/VA. they expand the map without outrunning the footprint. FSu UM, Clemson won'f increase eyeballs enough to matter.

That said FSU, UM, Clemson likely make sense for B10 at reduced rate like Or/WA got.

So drop Alabama-Georgia; Alabama-LSU; Georgia-Texas; Florida-Tennessee, so you can pair those schools with UNC and UVA?

You significantly dilute the schedule with just those two. Paired with FSU and Clemson, its fine. But alone, no way.
That's a red herring. With 20 schools and setting your own scheduling you pick up one of those games a year. They can be substituted on someone's schedule for Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Mississippi State and somebody gets FSU. This is the lamest and most ridiculous line of reasoning ever. If anything, all of the leaders would be happy at the end of the day to have one conference game that was middling to weak. Hell, how many does the average Big Ten schedule have on them? You do realize that by going to 9 conference games with 20 schools that even if you counted them as weak games on the schedule that they would still be better draws than one of the replaced buy games, and if ESPN is paying for them they are not a drag on the media revenue (which they aren't anyway due to the market addition), and they all would add to the ticket price and concessions for anyone's home game over that of a buy game.

An argument can be made that any school the SEC invites that has a large and intense fanbase and has a solid and competent financial base of support would probably not be a middling to weak program most of the time. Look at Vanderbilt and Mississippi St now. The money, exposure and just being in the best conference in the nation in football, baseball and quite possibly basketball moving forward just elevates all schools to a level where none are weak other than in down years. It's a new age of NFL-like parity in the SEC. And it just means more.

That's absolutely correct! Brands, Markets, Academics, Competitiveness in all sports, it's all exactly what the Presidents and Sankey are looking for in new members. The same mentality was operative for the Texas and Oklahoma additions, for Texas A&M, and even Missouri, and was absolutely there for Arkansas in 1991-2. South Carolina was not immune to success either when they joined. You couldn't and wouldn't call any of them a bad addition or one the conference regrets. If they add North Carolina and Virginia, regardless of what some may think, they will have checked all of the boxes. Attendance, especially that which is impaired only by the capacity of the facilities, really only impacts the home revenue of those schools.

What's more the diaspora of UVa and UNC graduates into New England and New York and really all over, coupled with their hoops brand in areas which are basketball crazy only adds to their market reach, particularly in areas not normally reached by the SEC. Duke simply gloms on another national brand for that sport. The key however remains the 4th being F.S.U. to maintain control over the Florida market for ESPN, gain it for the SEC, and as a brand multiplier in football, though FSU adds to all sports as well. Whether it is that 4, or UNC, Duke, Clemson and FSU we stock winners into our conference either way. The first one however does add more in the way of market reach.

We agree here, but to elaborate more narrowly on my point I'm going to use an analogy of something that would never happen and which I am not advocating. This is for illustrative purposes only, but if the SEC were to only add the ECU Pirates from the State of North Carolina, and again the SEC is not inviting them, and I am not saying they should even be considered, but if the SEC did, the Pirates immediately become the most valuable college athletic brand in that state based on short term speculation alone. I'm sure that breaks the brains of Tar Heels and Blue Devils, but that is now the power of the SEC's brand, value and influence.

The SEC not only has the power to chose kings, but to be kingmakers. The truth is if you have a large and intense fanbase, a strong athletic financial outlook, and possess a college football culture that is in it to win it, you would succeed enough in the SEC. The SEC would also be even stronger because of such inclusion, up to whatever cap of conference members that now exists in the new SEC professional collegiate landscape.
11-08-2025 02:51 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #418
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-08-2025 02:51 PM)Lurker Above Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 01:40 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 01:24 PM)Lurker Above Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 11:56 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-08-2025 10:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  So drop Alabama-Georgia; Alabama-LSU; Georgia-Texas; Florida-Tennessee, so you can pair those schools with UNC and UVA?

You significantly dilute the schedule with just those two. Paired with FSU and Clemson, its fine. But alone, no way.
That's a red herring. With 20 schools and setting your own scheduling you pick up one of those games a year. They can be substituted on someone's schedule for Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Mississippi State and somebody gets FSU. This is the lamest and most ridiculous line of reasoning ever. If anything, all of the leaders would be happy at the end of the day to have one conference game that was middling to weak. Hell, how many does the average Big Ten schedule have on them? You do realize that by going to 9 conference games with 20 schools that even if you counted them as weak games on the schedule that they would still be better draws than one of the replaced buy games, and if ESPN is paying for them they are not a drag on the media revenue (which they aren't anyway due to the market addition), and they all would add to the ticket price and concessions for anyone's home game over that of a buy game.

An argument can be made that any school the SEC invites that has a large and intense fanbase and has a solid and competent financial base of support would probably not be a middling to weak program most of the time. Look at Vanderbilt and Mississippi St now. The money, exposure and just being in the best conference in the nation in football, baseball and quite possibly basketball moving forward just elevates all schools to a level where none are weak other than in down years. It's a new age of NFL-like parity in the SEC. And it just means more.

That's absolutely correct! Brands, Markets, Academics, Competitiveness in all sports, it's all exactly what the Presidents and Sankey are looking for in new members. The same mentality was operative for the Texas and Oklahoma additions, for Texas A&M, and even Missouri, and was absolutely there for Arkansas in 1991-2. South Carolina was not immune to success either when they joined. You couldn't and wouldn't call any of them a bad addition or one the conference regrets. If they add North Carolina and Virginia, regardless of what some may think, they will have checked all of the boxes. Attendance, especially that which is impaired only by the capacity of the facilities, really only impacts the home revenue of those schools.

What's more the diaspora of UVa and UNC graduates into New England and New York and really all over, coupled with their hoops brand in areas which are basketball crazy only adds to their market reach, particularly in areas not normally reached by the SEC. Duke simply gloms on another national brand for that sport. The key however remains the 4th being F.S.U. to maintain control over the Florida market for ESPN, gain it for the SEC, and as a brand multiplier in football, though FSU adds to all sports as well. Whether it is that 4, or UNC, Duke, Clemson and FSU we stock winners into our conference either way. The first one however does add more in the way of market reach.

We agree here, but to elaborate more narrowly on my point I'm going to use an analogy of something that would never happen and which I am not advocating. This is for illustrative purposes only, but if the SEC were to only add the ECU Pirates from the State of North Carolina, and again the SEC is not inviting them, and I am not saying they should even be considered, but if the SEC did, the Pirates immediately become the most valuable college athletic brand in that state based on short term speculation alone. I'm sure that breaks the brains of Tar Heels and Blue Devils, but that is now the power of the SEC's brand, value and influence.

The SEC not only has the power to chose kings, but to be kingmakers. The truth is if you have a large and intense fanbase, a strong athletic financial outlook, and possess a college football culture that is in it to win it, you would succeed enough in the SEC. The SEC would also be even stronger because of such inclusion, up to whatever cap of conference members that now exists in the new SEC professional collegiate landscape.

I've made that same point using South Florida. Put an SEC patch on their uniform and their value spikes. They are 10 years away from consideration for anyone on a serious level, but the point was the king making ability. And really most years North Carolina under Mack Brown was competitive. This may be the best Virginia has been positioned post Welsh. And part of that is because the revenue will enhance their ability to compete and the branding of the SEC their ability to recruit.
11-08-2025 03:41 PM
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Post: #419
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
Virginia's Coach Elliott makes $4.4M(+bonuses), 11th in the ACC. Buyout is just over $11M, 6th in the ACC.
Does Virginia see him as worth taking to the P2...if they're going? He can certainly be bought, like when Alabama bought DeBoer from WA, last year of PAC12. WA was/is more attractive for football, so they haven't missed a beat. Can VA do the same, if Elliott moves on?
11-08-2025 05:35 PM
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Post: #420
RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(11-08-2025 11:56 AM)JRsec Wrote:  That's a red herring. With 20 schools and setting your own scheduling you pick up one of those games a year. They can be substituted on someone's schedule for Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Mississippi State and somebody gets FSU. This is the lamest and most ridiculous line of reasoning ever. If anything, all of the leaders would be happy at the end of the day to have one conference game that was middling to weak. Hell, how many does the average Big Ten schedule have on them? You do realize that by going to 9 conference games with 20 schools that even if you counted them as weak games on the schedule that they would still be better draws than one of the replaced buy games, and if ESPN is paying for them they are not a drag on the media revenue (which they aren't anyway due to the market addition), and they all would add to the ticket price and concessions for anyone's home game over that of a buy game.

JRsec, your name-dropping and talking down to everyone on this board is wearing very thin on me right now.

Adding schools that nobody gives a sh*t about doesn't make a more marketable product. That's a fact, not a red herring. Adding slop is how the Big Ten finds itself lagging behind the SEC every single week. A Big Ten schedule that wasn't bogged down with Maryland and Rutgers would garner better ratings every single week. That's not hyperbole. It's just the way the world works.

When you say that if ESPN wants the SEC to add a school it makes sense for the SEC, it's not a straw man argument when someone demonstrates exactly why that's not the case.

Virginia football and North Carolina football are dead weight. Full stop. Maybe those additions would make sense for some other reason, but it's not because they become assets for the football conference.

Whether there were talks thirty-five years ago about adding any schools, that is not the most relevant issue at hand: A third of the SEC's current membership was not even represented in Birmingham when that was discussed.
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2025 10:04 PM by OneSockUp.)
11-08-2025 09:03 PM
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