"dispensationalism"

Big word lol.

A lot of Christians really have no idea what it means because their church rarely talks about it unless your church is really serious about deep Bible study.

Some will vehemently say they reject dispensationalsim without even realizing they actually do believe in basic dispensations. If you believe there is a divide between the OT and the NT in how God deals with man then you believe in dispensations. Most churches and denominations fall under that category, even if they never talk about it or claim they reject it.

A simplified way to see it is dispensations are a way God divides periods of time in the Bible and how He deals with man in each. For example the OT law is one dispensation, the church age is another, the tribulation is a dispensation, so is the coming 1000 year kingdom of Jesus on earth. The OT prophets, Jesus and the Apostles all talk about events in these different periods, and if you don't recognize the divide and differences between them you will end up all mixed up and much of the Bible will be impossibly confusing. Hence the term "rightly dividing" scripture as Paul wrote. Otherwise you will end up trying to fit something Jesus said about Israel (in the tribulation or the 1000 year reign) into the church age and be totally confused about what is being said.

Keep in mind also when we talk about "literalism" we are not saying there are not parables or symbology in the Bible. Quite the opposite. What we are talking about is not taking entire books and entire portions of the bible and turning them into spiritual symbolism with no literal application. That is actually a cop out and excuse to ignore huge sections of the Bible (particularity the OT prophets and Revelation) and never deal with them. Scripture does not support that approach. In fact the NT resoundingly teaches the total opposite of that based on the 300+ prophecies of the first coming of Jesus which were fulfilled literally, not figuratively. Jesus has 2 advents, and the first was very literal in its fulfillment of scripture.

Here is a quick explanation from the people at Gotquestions.org

This was a good, concise video and honestly clearer than other descriptions I've heard.

I probably favor Covenant Theology due to the unity of God's people (being largely synonymous with BOTH Israel and the Church, or at least the believing remnant/core of each). I do respect Dispensationalism because it was developed out of careful attention to scripture. The literalism sometimes goes too far, but that is in every way preferable to the alternative. There can also be excesses in modern politics (perhaps the "hyper" version) when Christians un-critically support the modern state of Israel.

(01-19-2022 09:26 AM)Crayton Wrote:  This was a good, concise video and honestly clearer than other descriptions I've heard.

I probably favor Covenant Theology due to the unity of God's people (being largely synonymous with BOTH Israel and the Church, or at least the believing remnant/core of each). I do respect Dispensationalism because it was developed out of careful attention to scripture. The literalism sometimes goes too far, but that is in every way preferable to the alternative. There can also be excesses in modern politics (perhaps the "hyper" version) when Christians un-critically support the modern state of Israel.

That is the most common and basic misunderstanding of all concerning this issue and its illustrates the point that most people who reject it do not yet understand what and why they reject it. They end up rejecting it on a false premise and misunderstanding.

Basic dispensatinalism recognizes that both Jew and Gentile WHO ACCEPT CHRIST are one body, not two separate groups. There is no separation at all between them, they are all one group and all God's people.

But that is the very reason people will reject it, they think we are saying the complete opposite of that. No, that is not what is being said at all.

When we talk about the differences between the Church and Israel and God's fulfillment of his promises to Israel in prophecy we are not talking about events that happen in the church age. We are talking about events that happen AFTER the church age ends, in the Great Tribulation and in the Kingdom age (millennial reign).

None of this applies to people (Jew or Gentile) in Christ living in the church age. We are one body in Christ and that is our ETERNAL state in New Jerusalem in Heaven. The prophetic stuff about Israel applies to people mostly not yet born who will be living in the Millennial Kingdom on earth following the return of Christ.

The church age is not the eternal state, it has a very definitive end point in the Bible. And many events follow it according to scripture. The latter half of Revelation is one obvious example but there are countless entire chapters on this in the Old Testament. Modern Israel had to be regathered and reborn as nation to set the table for what God and Jesus told us would happen to them in the great tribulation. Both Jesus and the OT prophets made clear that Israel would be back in the land and a nation again (still in sin, still separated from Christ and the Father) when the tribulation and the antichrists kingdom come about. Its these final horrific events and last war on the Holy Land that will finally bring them to accept Jesus and come under the New Covenant. As Christ said, its going to be the worst time that ever was and ever will be again though.



Its also a misunderstanding about the support for modern Israel. It has nothing to do with being critical or not being critical of modern Israel. Modern Israel is not saved, they have rejected Christ and rejected God and are in fact extremely wicked in His eyes. They cannot save themselves by rebuilding a temple and getting back to sacrifices under the OT law (through the NT clearly says they will try in the tribulation). Their one and only path to redemption is through Jesus Christ alone.

But scripture says that God will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse them, and though they are enemies of the Gospel they are still beloved for the Fathers sake.


Maybe that will begin to help clarify some of this. Its ALWAYS the same basic misunderstandings that divide some people on this. When people begin to understand what is being said on this and then go back to fact check it in scripture, they tend to get in line with it very quickly because its undeniable in scripture. To deny it means you have to basically tear entire sections out of your bible and flush then down the drain because they are meaningless and massively contradictory. This perfectly clarifies and brings to life all those sections of the Bible people tend to avoid at all costs and never open and read.

Romans 11:25 & 28

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

(01-19-2022 06:38 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  That is the most common and basic misunderstanding of all concerning this issue and its illustrates the point that most people who reject it do not yet understand what and why they reject it. They end up rejecting it on a false premise and misunderstanding.

Basic dispensatinalism says that both Jew and Gentile WHO ACCEPT CHRIST are one body, not two separate groups. There is no separation at all between them, they are all one group and all God's people.

But that is the very reason people will reject it, they think we are saying the complete opposite of that. No, that is not what is being said at all.

When we talk about the differences between the Church and Israel and God's fulfillment of his promises to Israel in prophecy we are not talking about events that happen in the church age. We are talking about events that happen AFTER the church age ends and in the Kingdom age (millennial reign).

None of this applies to people (Jew or Gentile) in Christ living in the church age. We are one body in Christ and that is our ETERNAL state in New Jerusalem in Heaven. This applies to people not yet born who will be living in the Millennial Kingdom on earth following the return of Christ.

The church age is not the eternal state, it has a very definitive end point in the Bible. And many events follow it according to scripture. The latter half of Revelation is one obvious example but there are countless entire chapters on this in the Old Testament.

Maybe that will being to help clarify some of this. Its ALWAYS the same basic misunderstandings that divide some people on this. When people begin to understand what is being said on this and then go back to fact check it in scripture, they tend to get in line with it very quickly because its undeniable in scripture. To deny it means you have to basically tear entire sections out of your bible and flush then down the drain because they are meaningless and massively contradictory. This perfectly clarifies and brings to life all those sections of the Bible people tend to avoid at all costs and never open and read.

This does help. I now recall the connection to Revelation and how things are wrapped up differently in the millennial age. When someone "explained" it to me many years ago the thought that stuck in my head was that a Jew living in 40 BC could be saved but a Jew living in 40 AD had to be a convert to Christianity, irrespective of the logistical hurdles of getting the news of Jesus Christ to that Jew. The emphasis on all being one body helps.

(01-19-2022 06:38 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Its also a total misunderstand about the support for modern Israel. It has nothing to do with being critical or not being critical of modern Israel. Modern Israel is not saved, they have rejected Christ and rejected God and are in fact extremely wicked in His eyes. They cannot save themselves by rebuilding a temple and getting back to sacrifices under the OT law (through the NT clearly says they will try in the tribulation). Their one and only path to redemption is through Jesus Christ alone.

But scripture says that God will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse them, and though they are enemies of the Gospel they are still beloved for the Fathers sake.

Here I am a bit out of my depth. To equate the Modern Jewish state to David or Herod's kingdoms seems a stretch. Is it whichever Jewish authority controls Jerusalem who is allowed to inherit this blessing? I would expect "Israel" to refer to the Jewish people who pursue God rather than a nation-state, whether ancient or modern.

(01-20-2022 07:04 PM)Crayton Wrote:  Here I am a bit out of my depth. To equate the Modern Jewish state to David or Herod's kingdoms seems a stretch. Is it whichever Jewish authority controls Jerusalem who is allowed to inherit this blessing? I would expect "Israel" to refer to the Jewish people who pursue God rather than a nation-state, whether ancient or modern.

Its the people, not the government. That has really been the case even back in Davids time, though in David and Solomon's time that was the peak of ancient Israel.

Israel was turnng from God and falling away for almost 1000 years before Christ finally came. Even when the northern and southern kingdoms were carried away, the people were still "Israel" according to God in the OT. And we see Paul makes that clear its still the case throughout the NT.

So today's situation is really not much different in this context, its just 2000 years later. There is a remnant of the physical seed of Abraham (not the spiritual like those in Christ) that are scattered throughout in Israel and still partially scattered around the globe. We are not talking about every person on earth who claims to be a Jew (not all are), but God knows who is and isn't.

Quite simply for the end time prophecies to be fulfilled, there had to be a national rebirth of Israel in the Holy Land, STILL in sin and still rejecting Jesus. All the OT prophets, Jesus AND Revelation make clear there is a nation of Israel in the Holy Land when the final tribulation begins. There has to be a Temple rebuild with them trying to follow the OT law and sacrifices again, which God no longer recognizes. But because of their spiritual blindness and separation from Christ they do not yet realize this. But they will during the tribulation when the antichrist/beast sits in the most holy place in the temple and declares himself to be God. At that point many of the Jews will react in horror and turn against him, and he will bring a league of nations to Israel to destroy them once and for all. Its at this point, in their darkest hour, when a sizable remnant will finally turn to Christ en mass.

This is the moment Jesus refereed to in Matt 23:37-39 and Luke 13:35 where He says they will see Him no more until they acknowledge their offense and call on Him. We also see that in Hosea 5:14-15. Its at this point that He is finally about to return to Israel in person.

I could not possible list all the verses that tell us all this, they are scattered in bits and pieces throughout the entire Bible in the OT prophets, the Gospels, Paul's letters and Revelation. Some of the more concentrated areas are in Zechariah 12-14, Ezekiel 38-39 and Jesus' Olivet Discourse on the end times for example. But there are countless other bits and pieces scattered throughout.

Check out Ezekiel 39:21-29 following the end of the tribulation and the Gog-Magog war where God says they have finally returned to Him and they will never turn form Him again and He will never turn His face form them again from that moment onward.

Its one of those dusty corners of the Bible people tend to never read and completely ignore. Yet its clearly one of the key passages and moments of the entire Bible.

Think of the different passages like Ezekiel 39, Zechariah 14 or Revelation 19 as different "camera angles" of the same event. Each "camera angle" is from a unique perspective and focuses on a unique aspect of the same event. Much like a movie, when you look at them all together you see the complete picture.

The OT passages are "shown" from the perspective of Israel, Revelation is shown from the perspective of church age Christians because its the Christians job to get this message and warning out to the Jews and the rest of the world before the time comes. So when it does come they will know this was predicted in the Bible and its actually happening before their eyes.

I posted this 2 and a half years ago but its seems more important now than ever with the war Israel continuing to escalate.

If you follow Christian media on prophetic events you probably see a lot of talk now about the Gog Magog war of Russia/Iran/Turkey and a few other northern Africa Muslim nations (Sudan, Lybia, etc) attacking Israel. But realize what is happening now is the lead up for the antichrist figure to step in and confirm some historical peace deal FIRST. Things have to come to a full boil first for him to step in and capture the whole worlds imagination with his ability to bring peace to the Middle east, an unthinkable and seeming impossible act that could only be done by God.

The actual Gog-Magog war appears to be when the AC breaks this 7 year treaty himself at the halfway mark and begins the invasion of Israel.

But for the first time since these prophetic texts were written 2600 years ago, Israel is a self governing nation again and all these countries are magically aligning together against them at once just as written 2600 years ago. And right when the text predicted (about 2000 years after Christ) , in the latter years just before the end.

You would think this would be a serious eye opener for a lot of secular non believers, but many of them are just blinded from any truth by their sin and stony hearts. Lord knows I was for 40 years too.

But its also true there are a lot of people coming to Christ now for the first time because they see the events shaping up in the world right now. They see the growing darkness, the globalists agenda, the coming nwo, the coming mark of the beast and one world currency, they see the events aligning around Israel just as written thousands of years ago in the Bible. ALL THESE EVENTS CONVERGING ALL AT ONCE. Many preachers and prophecy teachers are saying across the board this is the most they have ever seen people talk and ask about these things in the Bible. And many becoming new Christians because of what they see happening in the world now from the Olympics to the elections chaos everywhere to the unrest and riots across Europe, the events of COVID and global lockdowns, the obvious gaslighting by the global media, the obvious desire and lurch for a one world government, etc.

For those with to eyes with see, these are AMAZING times we are in and the time seems very short now. How long until he globalists have this thing secured? We're teetering on the edge now and likely one world wide economic meltdown from it happening.

I cant stress this thread enough fellas, this is absolutely key to understanding and rightly dividing your Bible.

Without understanding basic dispensations you are going to be totally confused about entire books and entire sections of the Bible. And that includes many words and parables of Jesus as well.

People who reject the idea of basic dispensations, even so called scholars, are totally lost and unable to explain massive portions of the Bible because its inexplicable without this basic understanding. I have studied, discussed and debated this topic with countless people, so this is something I have a ton of experience with.

When people say they reject dispensations and you press them to explain what entire chapters and books like Ezekiel 36-39, 40-48, Zechariah 10-14, The book of Joel, the book of Zephaniah, Jeremiah 30-33, virtually the entire book of Isaiah and all the OT propehts are talking about concerning Israel and the future, they will all say "I don't know what it means, the only thing I do know is it doesn't mean what it says. And I don't want to talk about it anymore."

That is practically word for word what every person will say when pressed on this who rejects basic dispensations. Even though every single book of the Bible says the exact same thing about Israel in the latter days over and over again, they reject all of it and have no explanation as to what it means.

People who reject this, even ministers and scholars, just openly reject and ignore massive portions of the Bible. They won't teach from them, they won't talk about them, they won't discuss them at all. Why? Because they are totally inexplicable under their theology.

What are the alternatives to dispensationalism? And why is are they wrong? Dispensationalism seems pretty straight forward - "If you believe there is a divide between the OT and the NT in how God deals with man then you believe in dispensations." But how does it get skewed & altneratives to it. How do I know if I trust it or reject it. Sounds like a big word to create controversy where it doesn’t exist. Put it to me in simple terms

(10-30-2024 12:24 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  What are the alternatives to dispensationalism? And why is are they wrong? Dispensationalism seems pretty straight forward - "If you believe there is a divide between the OT and the NT in how God deals with man then you believe in dispensations." But how does it get skewed & altneratives to it. How do I know if I trust it or reject it. Sounds like a big word to create controversy where it doesn’t exist. Put it to me in simple terms

Well its most definatly not a big word used to create controversy, its a word used to distinguish an already well established divide between those who believe God is not done with the nation of Israel (because that is what is written over and over and over again in both the OT and NT) and those who believe you can just throw massive sections of the Bible out because He has turned His back on them forever.

If your asking in simplified terms what non-dispensationalists say and call themselves I can tell you that, but if you are asking how do they make those parts of the Bible actually work when you examine the text.......no one can tell you that including those who reject basic dispensationalism. I have sat through countless hours of debates on this and I myself have discussed and debated this with them for years and NONE of them ever have any way to open up the Bible and walk through these countless chapters of scripture and explain how its works within their theology. They have a few go to verses they will point to (as do ALL false doctrines and false theologies) but when you point to the massive sections of both the OT and NT that debunk this they are a deer in headlights. 99% of the time its as if they are seeing these chapters and verses for the first time ever.

They call their views "covenant theology" (though we all believe in the covenants) or "Supersessionism". Those are just fancy words that mean the church has replaced Israel forever in God's plans and God no longer gives a rats a55 about Israel whatsoever. This also suggests God didn't really know what was going to happen, and He was so shocked and disappointed in Israels "unexpected" rejection of Jesus that He just said the heck with you people, I'm just going to throw out the entire Bible and all I have said through the prophets and totally change direction and plans right in the middle of everything.

The problem is when you read the OT prophets, they say over and over again that Israel was going to fall into sin and reject the Messiah, and God knew this from before the world was made. This was in fact part of His plan all along for the Jews to reject Jesus and Jesus' church instead be made up of Gentiles all across the world for some 2000 years, and at the end God would regather Israel (still in unbelief) and at the end of the church age they would finally come to repent and accept Jesus in their darkest hour in the final tribulation. God states openly that this 2000 years later return of the Jews and then them finally having their come to Jesus moment in the darkest hour of the entire world is done purposely to play out publicly in front of the entire unbelieving world.

So you may ask "if the Bible says all that then why this debate? Why this disagreement and why these competing theologies on this?"

That's what I would like to know. I always wonder or just flat out ask "what the heck Bible are you guys reading over there???? Its looks to me like you are just flat out not reading massive sections of your Bible and just looking for an "out" because you aren't reading most of it and really don't know what most of it says. This "supersessionism" stuff just gives you an excuse to never have to read and study over half of your Bible and this is the perfectly made up excuse to not have to deal with most of it."

Also, if you aren't studying the Bible you may also wonder why does any of this matter? Does this bring me salvation? Well NO, but once we do hear the Gospel and have salvation do we then just tear out 99% Bible and burn it for kindling?

OF COURSE NOT.

But here is the huge problem......if you believe that God is done with Israel forever and turned His back on them forever, then nearly half the Bible is going to be incomprehensible gibberish to your ears. Literally half the Bible is simply incompatible and cannot be understood within your beliefs. You can claim these things were "fulfilled in Jesus" and that sounds logical in a vacuum until you actually turn to those extensively detailed chapters of the Bible and have to explain how that works and how these things were actually fulfilled.

That is where the whole thing falls apart, when you actually have to turn to those chapters and sections of the Bible and show how they were "fulfilled in Jesus". When you turn to them and begin reading them you realize this makes no sense whatsoever and openly contradicts everything they are saying.

This is why supercessionists just blatantly ignore over half their Bible and pretend its does not exist. If they open to those parts of the Bible and begin reading it, it totally blows up their theology in a stunningly dramatic way.

Here are a few examples of how dramatic their views contradict scripture. Remember, they claim God has turned His back on Israel and is done with them for their sin and rejection of Jesus. But here is what God said in the OT :

Jeremiah 30

10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.


Jeremiah 31

35 This is what the Lord says,
He who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—
The Lord of Hosts is His name:

36 “If these ordinances depart from Me,” declares the Lord,
“Then the descendants of Israel also will cease to be a nation before Me forever.”

37 This is what the Lord says:
“If the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out below, then I will also reject all the descendants of Israel for everything that they have done,” declares the Lord.


I can fill up mutiple pages of this thread with examples like these. They are repeated over and over and over again in the Bible. If passages like these are not sufficient, then there are NO WORDS WHATSOEVER that would ever be sufficient. There is literally nothing God can state that will matter or make a difference to their views.

Genesis 13:14-15

14 The Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, “Now raise your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward, and eastward and westward; for all the (land of Canaan) which you see I will give to you and to your descendants FOREVER


Genesis 17:7-8

7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an EVERLASTING COVENANT, to be God to you and your descendants after you.

8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an EVERLASTING possession; and I will be their God.”


Its key to remember this is not the Mosaic Covenant (OT law) which Jesus fulfilled, this is the Abrahamic covenant.

Supersessionists will say "Jesus fulfilled the OT covenant". And while that is true in one respect its also a massively deceptive thing to say in this context. There is not a single "OT covenant", there are mutiple distinct and separate covenants God made with specific people at specific times concerning specific things. There is the Noahic Covenant, centuries later the Abrahamic Covenant over the land of Canaan, centuries after that the The Mosaic Covenant, centuries after that the Davidic Covenant and then Jesus brings the New Covenant which is a fulfillment of the Mosaic Covenant.

Some 500 years before Moses, God called out Abraham and made a covenant with Him over the land of Canaan, giving the land to Abraham and his decedents FOREVER. Its an EVERLASTING covenant that God Himself took and gave to Abraham. Abraham and his decedents were never bound in any way to keep this convent as they were with the Mosaic, only God alone was bound in this covenant and only God was capable of breaking or failing in it. Abrahams decadents could be judged and kicked out in punishment for set periods, but God swore by His own Name that He would never fully break this covenant to kick them out forever and that this promise was EVERLASTING.

When it came time to seal this covenant, God placed Abraham in a deep sleep. Typically the two parties making a covenant would pass between the sacrificial animal pieces as a sign of their oath, but here God places Abraham in a deep sleep and God alone passes through the pieces showing God alone has made this oath. Abraham and his descendants are not bound under this oath, only God Himself is, they simply receive His promise and oath. This is the same as the Noahic Covenant where only God is bound and only God can break it, God keeps the covenant regardless of how people respond to it. This is very different from the Mosaic covenant where the people have taken a covenant oath and are specifically bound by it and have to keep it.

It's still very confusing to me. This may just be a topic over my head & I like this kind of stuff. I think you may be oversimplifying their position, or they don't understand their own position. I’ve had some experience in numerous denominations & seems across the board Israel’s importance in the current & future time is still taught. Only ones who seem to reject this are the super liberal types who want to toss out anything & everything, tho as churches get more liberal, expect those teaching it to expand. Yet when I search 'what denominations reject dispensationalism', the answer is most of them.

I do think they purposefully call their theology ‘covenant theology’ to get people to agree with it, b/c how can you deny God makes covenants, right? So be careful what something's labeled.

(01-19-2022 09:26 AM)Crayton Wrote:  in modern politics (perhaps the "hyper" version) when Christians un-critically support the modern state of Israel.

Sadly today 'support' means giving them everything they want. I think some tough love or as you say critical thought needs to be done to support them.

(10-31-2024 11:31 AM)Bronco14 Wrote:  It's still very confusing to me. This may just be a topic over my head & I like this kind of stuff. I think you may be oversimplifying their position, or they don't understand their own position. I’ve had some experience in numerous denominations & seems across the board Israel’s importance in the current & future time is still taught. Only ones who seem to reject this are the super liberal types who want to toss out anything & everything, tho as churches get more liberal, expect those teaching it to expand. Yet when I search 'what denominations reject dispensationalism', the answer is most of them.

I do think they purposefully call their theology ‘covenant theology’ to get people to agree with it, b/c how can you deny God makes covenants, right? So be careful what something's labeled.

(01-19-2022 09:26 AM)Crayton Wrote:  in modern politics (perhaps the "hyper" version) when Christians un-critically support the modern state of Israel.

Sadly today 'support' means giving them everything they want. I think some tough love or as you say critical thought needs to be done to support them.

I'd say the highlighted is it in a nutshell. They really don't seem to understand what dispensationalism is or even what their own position is. As I said, I have seen countless debates on this and discussed or debated it with them countless times for years and the one single point I come away with every time is they don't really know their own position, they just say "Jesus fulfilled it" and want to get off the subject as fast as possible.

So your confusion is understandable, because they themselves seem very confused and their position is truly inexplicable when you turn to these sections of the Bible and just read them. But like a lot of doctrines, if they grew up in a church that teaches God is done with Israel then they are just not open at all to correction or scripture on this.

In all sincerity, its clear to me most of them just don't read more than half of their Bible, and that is where this mostly comes from.

But you don't have to be a theologian to read the above verses and understand God is NOT done with Israel.

To quote Paul and Jesus in the NT:

Luke 21:24
And they (Israel) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations (70 AD): and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The "times/fulness of the Gentiles" is universally understood to be the church age for obvious reasons.

(10-31-2024 11:31 AM)Bronco14 Wrote:  It's still very confusing to me. This may just be a topic over my head & I like this kind of stuff. I think you may be oversimplifying their position, or they don't understand their own position. I’ve had some experience in numerous denominations & seems across the board Israel’s importance in the current & future time is still taught. Only ones who seem to reject this are the super liberal types who want to toss out anything & everything, tho as churches get more liberal, expect those teaching it to expand. Yet when I search 'what denominations reject dispensationalism', the answer is most of them.

I do think they purposefully call their theology ‘covenant theology’ to get people to agree with it, b/c how can you deny God makes covenants, right? So be careful what something's labeled.

There are some Biblical issues and doctrines that you don't always get an accurate breakdown from google and other places on and this is one of them.

If you just search for a break down on who rejects dispensationalism and who does not you will get one answer and if you just search who thinks God is done with Israel or not you will often get a very different answer, even though both questions are asking the exact same thing. You also typically get very inaccurate breakdown of what denominations fall under which category.

Truthfully its about a 50-50 to 60-40 split on which denominations think modern Israel is part of Gods plan and those who do not, with a slight majority falling under the view of God still not being done with Israel. Its also a bit fluid within many denominations as well, its not always cut and dry by those boundaries.

Most who fall under the "God is done with Israel" category just never talk about or teach on these things at all, so you aren't going to find much on this at all from them. And as I laid out here, if you try to question and pin them down on this, your not going to get very clear answers at all. Its one of those issues many of them just are not comfortable talking about or teaching on and they just avoid it at all costs. Some people can be in a church for years and not even realize this is what their church believes because it just never gets discussed.

But again, you are ignoring more than half your Bible when you do that. Those are churches that basically teach from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, plus a few bits and pieces from the rest of the NT and a few small pieces from the OT. More than half of the Bible is ignored at all costs because its directly tied to all of this and its just doesn't fit their theology.

There is some truth to liberal churches not having anything to do with this because they continue to drift further and further away from scripture all around. Its not the case with all churches who reject basic dispensationalism but there is some general truth in that.

The focus on Israel being separately still somehow loved by God differently than any other type of non-Christian culture/people, is the part that is confusing, because today, the concept of an "Israel of God" has been transformed (fulfilled) as being the Church.

So whether you believe Christ's coming created a new dispensation or not, it still established the Church as the true Israel.

Everything in the New and Old Testaments is about Christ. In the OT it's speaking about when He will come and the different ways of fulfilling God's commandments, sacrifices made, etc., were all foreshadowings or predictions of Christ's future coming.

But since He has come, just like He clarified after becoming incarnate as man, he has explained that the Old Testament Commandments, Sacrifices and who it (the OT) were all about Him.

And his people have been, and always will be, only those who are willing to put their faith in Him as their Savior, now that He has been revealed.

These people are Christians now regardless of what they were at one time. It's why Paul talks in Romans about the Church being the "Israel of God". The Church is the body of Christ. Christians are His only people, now. All others who reject him are not part of his flock.

Jewish people today do not believe the Messiah has come, thus they no longer are part of the Vine, but have been cast off, since the Vine only is supplied by Christ and all "grafted into it" must be those who recognize Him as the Son of God.

Unfortunately for them (just like it's unfortunate for gentiles who also reject Christ), anyone who is a Jew can only receive salvation just like anyone else can receive it now that Christ has come: by a conversion to becoming a Christian -- the people who recognize as, believe in, and rely upon Christ as their Savior.

(12-06-2024 03:04 PM)G-Man Wrote:  The focus on Israel being separately still somehow loved by God differently than any other type of non-Christian culture/people, is the part that is confusing, because today, the concept of an "Israel of God" has been transformed (fulfilled) as being the Church.

So whether you believe Christ's coming created a new dispensation or not, it still established the Church as the true Israel.

Everything in the New and Old Testaments is about Christ. In the OT it's speaking about when He will come and the different ways of fulfilling God's commandments, sacrifices made, etc., were all foreshadowings or predictions of Christ's future coming.

But since He has come, just like He clarified after becoming incarnate as man, he has explained that the Old Testament Commandments, Sacrifices and who it (the OT) were all about Him.

And his people have been, and always will be, only those who are willing to put their faith in Him as their Savior, now that He has been revealed.

These people are Christians now regardless of what they were at one time. It's why Paul talks in Romans about the Church being the "Israel of God". The Church is the body of Christ. Christians are His only people, now. All others who reject him are not part of his flock.

Jewish people today do not believe the Messiah has come, thus they no longer are part of the Vine, but have been cast off, since the Vine only is supplied by Christ and all "grafted into it" must be those who recognize Him as the Son of God.

Unfortunately for them (just like it's unfortunate for gentiles who also reject Christ), anyone who is a Jew can only receive salvation just like anyone else can receive it now that Christ has come: by a conversion to becoming a Christian -- the people who recognize as, believe in, and rely upon Christ as their Savior.

Actually that is the only verse in the entire NT that uses the word "Israel" in reference to the church and Paul does not say "Israel" he uses phrase "Israel of God" to show the Gentiles are being included (grafted in) to Gods people. ("GRAFTED IN", NOT "REPLACED", those 2 things have dramatically different meanings). There is no such scripture in the entire Bible that says we "replaced" Israel, that God eternally "cast them away", that we are "true Israel" or that we "fulfilled Israel". No such things are written in the Bible. We are included and grafted into His people.

The word "Israel" appears 76 times in the NT and every single one of them are specifically and undeniably about the Jews who have rejected Jesus as their Messiah. Throughout the entire NT Paul calls the Jesus rejecting Jews "Israel" and the church "Gentiles". Paul NEVER calls the church "Israel", he only makes the point that we are grafted in to Israel (NOT replacing them) and that the Jews are NOT cast away. Salvation through Jesus is just as available to them today as it was during Jesus earthly ministry. The vast majority are just currently rejecting it as they did back then. Just as the vast majority of Gentiles across the earth are rejecting it, so does that mean the Gentiles are then cast away? OF COURSE NOT.

Paul was clear in Romans 11 that we did not replace Israel, we are simply grafted in. As Paul wrote in Romans 11, some natural branches were broken off that we might be grafted in, but we should NOT boast against them and say God has rejected them, because they can be grafted back in and the prophets clearly tell us many will be at the end.

It should not be so confusing that Gods nation rejected their Messiah because This was Gods plan FROM THE BEGINNING. It was prophesied over and over and over again throughout the Old Testament. The prophets wrote that most of Israel would reject Him and this would open up the Gospel and the church age for Gentiles across the whole earth until the very end when God would return His focus on the Jews to bring them under the New Covenant with us. Scripture is clear on the point that though they rejected Jesus (as God predicted through His prophets) God still loves them and is not done with them.

As Paul writes in Romans 11:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

If God says He still loves them despite rejecting Jesus then then He still loves them. But as you said and I posted multiple times above, their one and only path to salvation is the same as ours, through Jesus and the New Covenant.


The confusion, misunderstanding and division in Christianity on this comes from 2 things:

1- Adhering to denominational traditions over scripture

2- Just flat out ignoring over half the Bible.

G-man, I'm glad you posted this because its a perfect example of the misunderstanding most have on this. I'm not singling you out here, I'm saying that is by far the most common response on this. This is how the conversation always goes and it highlights how this is not a scriptural disagreement, its a misunderstanding of what is being said. No one is saying they are saved simply because they are Jews, and no one is saying they are currently part of the flock/the body of Christ or that they have some different path to salvation. Just as no one is saying we are not the seed of Abraham by faith. That is not what is being said here at all.

Those who reject basic dispensations always make these arguments and it illustrates that they are just confused about what is being said and what this means. Neither you or I (or anyone) should ever reject something until we fully grasp and understand it, THEN we can fact check it in scripture and see if its actual doctrine and truth. When I hear the objections about Jews not being part of the body of Christ and not being able to be saved under the Mosaic covenant or temple sacrifices anymore that's a dead giveaway that the person is completely misunderstanding all of this. They think they are arguing against basic dispensations and don't realize they are bringing up points we already completely agree on.

Basic dispensations do not come from applying some special theological view, they come from a plain, straightforward reading of scripture. Rejecting dispensations is what requires interpreting the Bible through a man made theology that filters out massive amounts of straight forward scripture to make it work.