CSNbbs

"dispensationalism"

Big word lol.

A lot of Christians really have no idea what it means because their church rarely talks about it unless your church is really serious about deep Bible study.

Some will vehemently say they reject dispensationalsim without even realizing they actually do believe in basic dispensations. If you believe there is a divide between the OT and the NT in how God deals with man then you believe in dispensations. Most churches and denominations fall under that category, even if they never talk about it or claim they reject it.

There is also "hyper-dispensationalism" which I personally reject that goes way overboard with this, but that is not what this is about. This is just basic dispnesationalism.

Keep in mind also when we talk about "literalism" we are not saying there are not parables or symbology in the Bible. Quite the opposite. What we are talking about is not taking entire books and entire portions of the bible and turning them into spiritual symbolism with no literal application. That is actually a cop out and excuse to ignore huge sections of the Bible (particularity the OT prophets and Revelation) and never deal with them. Scripture does not support that approach. In fact the NT resoundingly teaches the total opposite of that based on the 300+ prophecies of the first coming of Jesus which were fulfilled literally, not figuratively. Jesus has 2 advents, and the first was very literal in its fulfillment of scripture.

Here is a quick explanation from the people at Gotquestions.org

This was a good, concise video and honestly clearer than other descriptions I've heard.

I probably favor Covenant Theology due to the unity of God's people (being largely synonymous with BOTH Israel and the Church, or at least the believing remnant/core of each). I do respect Dispensationalism because it was developed out of careful attention to scripture. The literalism sometimes goes too far, but that is in every way preferable to the alternative. There can also be excesses in modern politics (perhaps the "hyper" version) when Christians un-critically support the modern state of Israel.

(01-19-2022 09:26 AM)Crayton Wrote: [ -> ]This was a good, concise video and honestly clearer than other descriptions I've heard.

I probably favor Covenant Theology due to the unity of God's people (being largely synonymous with BOTH Israel and the Church, or at least the believing remnant/core of each). I do respect Dispensationalism because it was developed out of careful attention to scripture. The literalism sometimes goes too far, but that is in every way preferable to the alternative. There can also be excesses in modern politics (perhaps the "hyper" version) when Christians un-critically support the modern state of Israel.

That is the most common and basic misunderstanding of all concerning this issue and its illustrates the point that most people who reject it do not yet understand what and why they reject it. They end up rejecting it on a false premise and misunderstanding.

Basic dispensatinalism recognizes that both Jew and Gentile WHO ACCEPT CHRIST are one body, not two separate groups. There is no separation at all between them, they are all one group and all God's people.

But that is the very reason people will reject it, they think we are saying the complete opposite of that. No, that is not what is being said at all.

When we talk about the differences between the Church and Israel and God's fulfillment of his promises to Israel in prophecy we are not talking about events that happen in the church age. We are talking about events that happen AFTER the church age ends and in the Kingdom age (millennial reign).

None of this applies to people (Jew or Gentile) in Christ living in the church age. We are one body in Christ and that is our ETERNAL state in New Jerusalem in Heaven. This applies to people not yet born who will be living in the Millennial Kingdom on earth following the return of Christ.

The church age is not the eternal state, it has a very definitive end point in the Bible. And many events follow it according to scripture. The latter half of Revelation is one obvious example but there are countless entire chapters on this in the Old Testament.



Its also a misunderstanding about the support for modern Israel. It has nothing to do with being critical or not being critical of modern Israel. Modern Israel is not saved, they have rejected Christ and rejected God and are in fact extremely wicked in His eyes. They cannot save themselves by rebuilding a temple and getting back to sacrifices under the OT law (through the NT clearly says they will try in the tribulation). Their one and only path to redemption is through Jesus Christ alone.

But scripture says that God will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse them, and though they are enemies of the Gospel they are still beloved for the Fathers sake.


Maybe that will begin to help clarify some of this. Its ALWAYS the same basic misunderstandings that divide some people on this. When people begin to understand what is being said on this and then go back to fact check it in scripture, they tend to get in line with it very quickly because its undeniable in scripture. To deny it means you have to basically tear entire sections out of your bible and flush then down the drain because they are meaningless and massively contradictory. This perfectly clarifies and brings to life all those sections of the Bible people tend to avoid at all costs and never open and read.

Romans 11:25 & 28

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

(01-19-2022 06:38 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote: [ -> ]That is the most common and basic misunderstanding of all concerning this issue and its illustrates the point that most people who reject it do not yet understand what and why they reject it. They end up rejecting it on a false premise and misunderstanding.

Basic dispensatinalism says that both Jew and Gentile WHO ACCEPT CHRIST are one body, not two separate groups. There is no separation at all between them, they are all one group and all God's people.

But that is the very reason people will reject it, they think we are saying the complete opposite of that. No, that is not what is being said at all.

When we talk about the differences between the Church and Israel and God's fulfillment of his promises to Israel in prophecy we are not talking about events that happen in the church age. We are talking about events that happen AFTER the church age ends and in the Kingdom age (millennial reign).

None of this applies to people (Jew or Gentile) in Christ living in the church age. We are one body in Christ and that is our ETERNAL state in New Jerusalem in Heaven. This applies to people not yet born who will be living in the Millennial Kingdom on earth following the return of Christ.

The church age is not the eternal state, it has a very definitive end point in the Bible. And many events follow it according to scripture. The latter half of Revelation is one obvious example but there are countless entire chapters on this in the Old Testament.

Maybe that will being to help clarify some of this. Its ALWAYS the same basic misunderstandings that divide some people on this. When people begin to understand what is being said on this and then go back to fact check it in scripture, they tend to get in line with it very quickly because its undeniable in scripture. To deny it means you have to basically tear entire sections out of your bible and flush then down the drain because they are meaningless and massively contradictory. This perfectly clarifies and brings to life all those sections of the Bible people tend to avoid at all costs and never open and read.

This does help. I now recall the connection to Revelation and how things are wrapped up differently in the millennial age. When someone "explained" it to me many years ago the thought that stuck in my head was that a Jew living in 40 BC could be saved but a Jew living in 40 AD had to be a convert to Christianity, irrespective of the logistical hurdles of getting the news of Jesus Christ to that Jew. The emphasis on all being one body helps.

(01-19-2022 06:38 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote: [ -> ]Its also a total misunderstand about the support for modern Israel. It has nothing to do with being critical or not being critical of modern Israel. Modern Israel is not saved, they have rejected Christ and rejected God and are in fact extremely wicked in His eyes. They cannot save themselves by rebuilding a temple and getting back to sacrifices under the OT law (through the NT clearly says they will try in the tribulation). Their one and only path to redemption is through Jesus Christ alone.

But scripture says that God will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse them, and though they are enemies of the Gospel they are still beloved for the Fathers sake.

Here I am a bit out of my depth. To equate the Modern Jewish state to David or Herod's kingdoms seems a stretch. Is it whichever Jewish authority controls Jerusalem who is allowed to inherit this blessing? I would expect "Israel" to refer to the Jewish people who pursue God rather than a nation-state, whether ancient or modern.

(01-20-2022 07:04 PM)Crayton Wrote: [ -> ]Here I am a bit out of my depth. To equate the Modern Jewish state to David or Herod's kingdoms seems a stretch. Is it whichever Jewish authority controls Jerusalem who is allowed to inherit this blessing? I would expect "Israel" to refer to the Jewish people who pursue God rather than a nation-state, whether ancient or modern.

Its the people, not the government. That has really been the case even back in Davids time, though in David and Solomon's time that was the peak of ancient Israel.

Israel was turnng from God and falling away for almost 1000 years before Christ finally came. Even when the northern and southern kingdoms were carried away, the people were still "Israel" according to God in the OT. And we see Paul makes that clear its still the case throughout the NT.

So today's situation is really not much different in this context, its just 2000 years later. There is a remnant of the physical seed of Abraham (not the spiritual like those in Christ) that are scattered throughout in Israel and still partially scattered around the globe. We are not talking about every person on earth who claims to be a Jew (not all are), but God knows who is and isn't.

Quite simply for the end time prophecies to be fulfilled, there had to be a national rebirth of Israel in the Holy Land, STILL in sin and still rejecting Jesus. All the OT prophets, Jesus AND Revelation make clear there is a nation of Israel in the Holy Land when the final tribulation begins. There has to be a Temple rebuild with them trying to follow the OT law and sacrifices again, which God no longer recognizes. But because of their spiritual blindness and separation from Christ they do not yet realize this. But they will during the tribulation when the antichrist/beast sits in the most holy place in the temple and declares himself to be God. At that point many of the Jews will react in horror and turn against him, and he will bring a league of nations to Israel to destroy them once and for all. Its at this point, in their darkest hour, when a sizable remnant will finally turn to Christ en mass.

This is the moment Jesus refereed to in Matt 23:37-39 and Luke 13:35 where He says they will see Him no more until they acknowledge their offense and call on Him. We also see that in Hosea 5:14-15. Its at this point that He is finally about to return to Israel in person.

I could not possible list all the verses that tell us all this, they are scattered in bits and pieces throughout the entire Bible in the OT prophets, the Gospels, Paul's letters and Revelation. Some of the more concentrated areas are in Zechariah 12-14, Ezekiel 38-39 and Jesus' Olivet Discourse on the end times for example. But there are countless other bits and pieces scattered throughout.

Check out Ezekiel 39:21-29 following the end of the tribulation and the Gog-Magog war where God says they have finally returned to Him and they will never turn form Him again and He will never turn His face form them again from that moment onward.

Its one of those dusty corners of the Bible people tend to never read and completely ignore. Yet its clearly one of the key passages and moments of the entire Bible.

Think of the different passages like Ezekiel 39, Zechariah 14 or Revelation 19 as different "camera angles" of the same event. Each "camera angle" is from a unique perspective and focuses on a unique aspect of the same event. Much like a movie, when you look at them all together you see the complete picture.

The OT passages are "shown" from the perspective of Israel, Revelation is shown from the perspective of church age Christians.