(09-26-2024 10:53 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:49 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Sorry but credit card companies charging 20, 25, 28% and more are simply evil. I don't see a problem with forcing them to charge something reasonable.

And this is from someone that hasn't paid interest on a credit card in decades.

The market is evil. Sounds good. What rate goes to being 'not evil' in your subjective view?

Im not a fan of those rates. But I dont ascribe evil to market forces.

Let the price of money be the price of money.

Wrong argument. Correct one is "Why are credit cards so easily available to those with poor to barely decent credit scores in the first place"?

(09-26-2024 11:00 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:53 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:49 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Sorry but credit card companies charging 20, 25, 28% and more are simply evil. I don't see a problem with forcing them to charge something reasonable.

And this is from someone that hasn't paid interest on a credit card in decades.

The market is evil. Sounds good. What rate goes to being 'not evil' in your subjective view?

Im not a fan of those rates. But I dont ascribe evil to market forces.

Let the price of money be the price of money.

Wrong argument. Correct one is "Why are credit cards so easily available to those with poor to barely decent credit scores in the first place"?

Because someone is willing to risk their money for the potential gain of 25% back. The only thing capping interest rates is going to do is lower the amount of people that can get credit cards. Its the equivilant of the war on drugs locking up users. You are attacking a symptom rather than the cause. I'm sure there are some idiots out there that don't understand credit card debt(looking at you capital one giving out free pizzas on MTSU campus for signing up for a credit card. Freshmen bob had no business with a CC and a 2k limit) but by and large most people are using them to get by because everything is so damn expensive.

I think they did this in the 70's. Consumer credit disappeared overnight.

(09-26-2024 10:49 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Sorry but credit card companies charging 20, 25, 28% and more are simply evil. I don't see a problem with forcing them to charge something reasonable.

And this is from someone that hasn't paid interest on a credit card in decades.

In the credit union world, three is a 15% cap on any loan rate charges of any kind regardless of credit score.

Seems to be working for them?

(09-26-2024 11:12 AM)bobdizole Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 11:00 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:53 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:49 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Sorry but credit card companies charging 20, 25, 28% and more are simply evil. I don't see a problem with forcing them to charge something reasonable.

And this is from someone that hasn't paid interest on a credit card in decades.

The market is evil. Sounds good. What rate goes to being 'not evil' in your subjective view?

Im not a fan of those rates. But I dont ascribe evil to market forces.

Let the price of money be the price of money.

Wrong argument. Correct one is "Why are credit cards so easily available to those with poor to barely decent credit scores in the first place"?

Because someone is willing to risk their money for the potential gain of 25% back. The only thing capping interest rates is going to do is lower the amount of people that can get credit cards. Its the equivilant of the war on drugs locking up users. You are attacking a symptom rather than the cause. I'm sure there are some idiots out there that don't understand credit card debt(looking at you capital one giving out free pizzas on MTSU campus for signing up for a credit card. Freshmen bob had no business with a CC and a 2k limit) but by and large most people are using them to get by because everything is so damn expensive.

Precisely the point. Why do you think things are so expensive in the first place? If people didn't have the ability to use leverage to the level available today, the markets would be forced to adjust. Just like Kamala's plan to give money to first time home buyers, when you make money more easily accessible, markets react by prices increasing. Student loan debt made it possible for universities to jack up their tuition rates well above the rates of inflation.

(09-26-2024 11:00 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:53 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:49 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Sorry but credit card companies charging 20, 25, 28% and more are simply evil. I don't see a problem with forcing them to charge something reasonable.

And this is from someone that hasn't paid interest on a credit card in decades.

The market is evil. Sounds good. What rate goes to being 'not evil' in your subjective view?

Im not a fan of those rates. But I dont ascribe evil to market forces.

Let the price of money be the price of money.

Wrong argument. Correct one is "Why are credit cards so easily available to those with poor to barely decent credit scores in the first place"?

For the same reason higher risk typically necessitates higher reward in any arena of finance.

Not saying its a smart thing to chase -- just look at 2008.

But it isnt evil. Once you get into regulating the risk/reward determination, then *who* exactly should be the grand poobah arbiter of risk/reward?

Im retreating to classic Chicago School type stuff -- let the markets dictate the market overall for the vast part. Not some dude in a green visor, starched button down shirt, and a waistcoat dictating by law or regulation what the 'non-evil' price of money should be. Let alone the price control on pretty much anything for that matter.

(09-26-2024 11:44 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 11:12 AM)bobdizole Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 11:00 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:53 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:49 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Sorry but credit card companies charging 20, 25, 28% and more are simply evil. I don't see a problem with forcing them to charge something reasonable.

And this is from someone that hasn't paid interest on a credit card in decades.

The market is evil. Sounds good. What rate goes to being 'not evil' in your subjective view?

Im not a fan of those rates. But I dont ascribe evil to market forces.

Let the price of money be the price of money.

Wrong argument. Correct one is "Why are credit cards so easily available to those with poor to barely decent credit scores in the first place"?

Because someone is willing to risk their money for the potential gain of 25% back. The only thing capping interest rates is going to do is lower the amount of people that can get credit cards. Its the equivilant of the war on drugs locking up users. You are attacking a symptom rather than the cause. I'm sure there are some idiots out there that don't understand credit card debt(looking at you capital one giving out free pizzas on MTSU campus for signing up for a credit card. Freshmen bob had no business with a CC and a 2k limit) but by and large most people are using them to get by because everything is so damn expensive.

Precisely the point. Why do you think things are so expensive in the first place? If people didn't have the ability to use leverage to the level available today, the markets would be forced to adjust. Just like Kamala's plan to give money to first time home buyers, when you make money more easily accessible, markets react by prices increasing. Student loan debt made it possible for universities to jack up their tuition rates well above the rates of inflation.

And the economic growth == credit expansion as a fundamental rule in the here and now.

If you are decrying how expensive stuff is now, you should actually be a proponent massive interest rate, production drying up, economic expansion drying up, higher unemployment, and re-installing a crash in the money supply and deflation.

None of the above being a real good thing in anything more than small chunks.

By wishing for interest rate controls at lower level, you are actually supporting more expensive things across the board in a manner.

And it is absolutely clear --- shown in the experiences of the application of Mises and the Chicago School in the 80s and 90s, govt price controls and caps simply are not conducive to a vibrant economy.

(09-26-2024 10:53 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:49 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Sorry but credit card companies charging 20, 25, 28% and more are simply evil. I don't see a problem with forcing them to charge something reasonable.

And this is from someone that hasn't paid interest on a credit card in decades.

The market is evil. Sounds good. What rate goes to being 'not evil' in your subjective view?

Im not a fan of those rates. But I dont ascribe evil to market forces.

Let the price of money be the price of money.

Well when the federal government manipulates the money supply and drives costs through the roof for ordinary Americans... then those people have to take out credit card debt to get by because of the governments unconstitutional interventions in the first place... I do feel there is some form of obligation for the dopes who pushed the snowball down the proverbial hill to help clean the **** up at the bottom once it lands.

I'm not saying capping credit rates at 10% is the approach, but the dopes in DC are responsible on a macro level for increased credit card debt.

This isn't like college debt where idiots don't have to take out 100k for sociology degrees, a lot of these people who are hurting are people trying to get by because of the federal governments actions.







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(09-26-2024 11:52 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 11:44 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 11:12 AM)bobdizole Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 11:00 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:53 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  The market is evil. Sounds good. What rate goes to being 'not evil' in your subjective view?

Im not a fan of those rates. But I dont ascribe evil to market forces.

Let the price of money be the price of money.

Wrong argument. Correct one is "Why are credit cards so easily available to those with poor to barely decent credit scores in the first place"?

Because someone is willing to risk their money for the potential gain of 25% back. The only thing capping interest rates is going to do is lower the amount of people that can get credit cards. Its the equivilant of the war on drugs locking up users. You are attacking a symptom rather than the cause. I'm sure there are some idiots out there that don't understand credit card debt(looking at you capital one giving out free pizzas on MTSU campus for signing up for a credit card. Freshmen bob had no business with a CC and a 2k limit) but by and large most people are using them to get by because everything is so damn expensive.

Precisely the point. Why do you think things are so expensive in the first place? If people didn't have the ability to use leverage to the level available today, the markets would be forced to adjust. Just like Kamala's plan to give money to first time home buyers, when you make money more easily accessible, markets react by prices increasing. Student loan debt made it possible for universities to jack up their tuition rates well above the rates of inflation.

And the economic growth == credit expansion as a fundamental rule in the here and now.

If you are decrying how expensive stuff is now, you should actually be a proponent massive interest rate, production drying up, economic expansion drying up, higher unemployment, and re-installing a crash in the money supply and deflation.

None of the above being a real good thing in anything more than small chunks.

By wishing for interest rate controls at lower level, you are actually supporting more expensive things across the board in a manner.

And it is absolutely clear --- shown in the experiences of the application of Mises and the Chicago School in the 80s and 90s, govt price controls and caps simply are not conducive to a vibrant economy.

Excessive leverage for private consumers is different than the government debt. The government can print money - consumers cannot. Like I said originally, interest rate caps are not the right call. However, something does need to happen on the credit card front to reign in easy credit.

Recessions suck, but they are the balancing force in a largely free market economy to correct the errors that creep in with an expansion.

If you cap the rates, it just means the companies will stop issuing cards to a certain segment of the population.

(09-26-2024 12:01 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 11:52 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 11:44 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 11:12 AM)bobdizole Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 11:00 AM)miko33 Wrote:  Wrong argument. Correct one is "Why are credit cards so easily available to those with poor to barely decent credit scores in the first place"?

Because someone is willing to risk their money for the potential gain of 25% back. The only thing capping interest rates is going to do is lower the amount of people that can get credit cards. Its the equivilant of the war on drugs locking up users. You are attacking a symptom rather than the cause. I'm sure there are some idiots out there that don't understand credit card debt(looking at you capital one giving out free pizzas on MTSU campus for signing up for a credit card. Freshmen bob had no business with a CC and a 2k limit) but by and large most people are using them to get by because everything is so damn expensive.

Precisely the point. Why do you think things are so expensive in the first place? If people didn't have the ability to use leverage to the level available today, the markets would be forced to adjust. Just like Kamala's plan to give money to first time home buyers, when you make money more easily accessible, markets react by prices increasing. Student loan debt made it possible for universities to jack up their tuition rates well above the rates of inflation.

And the economic growth == credit expansion as a fundamental rule in the here and now.

If you are decrying how expensive stuff is now, you should actually be a proponent massive interest rate, production drying up, economic expansion drying up, higher unemployment, and re-installing a crash in the money supply and deflation.

None of the above being a real good thing in anything more than small chunks.

By wishing for interest rate controls at lower level, you are actually supporting more expensive things across the board in a manner.

And it is absolutely clear --- shown in the experiences of the application of Mises and the Chicago School in the 80s and 90s, govt price controls and caps simply are not conducive to a vibrant economy.

Excessive leverage for private consumers is different than the government debt. The government can print money - consumers cannot. Like I said originally, interest rate caps are not the right call. However, something does need to happen on the credit card front to reign in easy credit.

Recessions suck, but they are the balancing force in a largely free market economy to correct the errors that creep in with an expansion.

Incorrect. In our current fiat system, consumers can and do print money. Every creation of credit in the banking system is a creation of money. Not physical bills, but absolutely consumers are a definite party in creating money.

I walk into a bank for a business loan -- the end result many more times than not is the bank makes an entry for a loan amount into my 'ledger' -- and a corresponding amount of money is created on the back end of the system as an insto-presto creation of wealth in the money supply.

As far as my credit card they call me a dead beat just because I carry no balance.

(09-26-2024 12:07 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 12:01 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 11:52 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 11:44 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 11:12 AM)bobdizole Wrote:  Because someone is willing to risk their money for the potential gain of 25% back. The only thing capping interest rates is going to do is lower the amount of people that can get credit cards. Its the equivilant of the war on drugs locking up users. You are attacking a symptom rather than the cause. I'm sure there are some idiots out there that don't understand credit card debt(looking at you capital one giving out free pizzas on MTSU campus for signing up for a credit card. Freshmen bob had no business with a CC and a 2k limit) but by and large most people are using them to get by because everything is so damn expensive.

Precisely the point. Why do you think things are so expensive in the first place? If people didn't have the ability to use leverage to the level available today, the markets would be forced to adjust. Just like Kamala's plan to give money to first time home buyers, when you make money more easily accessible, markets react by prices increasing. Student loan debt made it possible for universities to jack up their tuition rates well above the rates of inflation.

And the economic growth == credit expansion as a fundamental rule in the here and now.

If you are decrying how expensive stuff is now, you should actually be a proponent massive interest rate, production drying up, economic expansion drying up, higher unemployment, and re-installing a crash in the money supply and deflation.

None of the above being a real good thing in anything more than small chunks.

By wishing for interest rate controls at lower level, you are actually supporting more expensive things across the board in a manner.

And it is absolutely clear --- shown in the experiences of the application of Mises and the Chicago School in the 80s and 90s, govt price controls and caps simply are not conducive to a vibrant economy.

Excessive leverage for private consumers is different than the government debt. The government can print money - consumers cannot. Like I said originally, interest rate caps are not the right call. However, something does need to happen on the credit card front to reign in easy credit.

Recessions suck, but they are the balancing force in a largely free market economy to correct the errors that creep in with an expansion.

Incorrect. In our current fiat system, consumers can and do print money. Every creation of credit in the banking system is a creation of money. Not physical bills, but absolutely consumers are a definite party in creating money.

I walk into a bank for a business loan -- the end result many more times than not is the bank makes an entry for a loan amount into my 'ledger' -- and a corresponding amount of money is created on the back end of the system as an insto-presto creation of wealth in the money supply.

Consumers cannot print money to make their debts go away. Sure, they can "print" money from the standpoint that they can consolidate loans and balance transfers to free up credit on other cards to run those up. However, there comes a time where those options are no longer available. The gov't can print money at will thru the issuance of debt instruments.

(09-26-2024 12:09 PM)Redbanksdog Wrote:  As far as my credit card they call me a dead beat just because I carry no balance.

You are not a profitable customer.

(09-26-2024 11:24 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:49 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Sorry but credit card companies charging 20, 25, 28% and more are simply evil. I don't see a problem with forcing them to charge something reasonable.

And this is from someone that hasn't paid interest on a credit card in decades.

In the credit union world, three is a 15% cap on any loan rate charges of any kind regardless of credit score.

Seems to be working for them?

Yep

(09-26-2024 12:31 PM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 12:09 PM)Redbanksdog Wrote:  As far as my credit card they call me a dead beat just because I carry no balance.

You are not a profitable customer.

I'm not either. And yet my credit scores are all in the 850 range.

In fact, all of my credit cards are cash back, and I never carry a balance, so I actually make money off them.

I also don't understand the idea that people are "forced" to use credit cards.

(09-26-2024 08:18 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 12:50 AM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 12:26 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-25-2024 10:27 PM)banker Wrote:  Yeah, usury rates are already a thing and the government has long controlled them. The issue is most credit card companies are exempt from state usury laws due to the nature of their business model which involves interstate commerce. This is something they have spent millions upon millions lobbying to keep in place.

So the question is, do you believe credit card companies should be able to buy their way out of regulation on this matter?

I typically come down against price control by the government in pretty much all circumstances. I cant think of a single instance I might support it.

I also think that in addition to the above, that small concentrated market holders shouldnt abuse their market power in antitrust fashion as a counterweight. Nor should groups collude and be free to price fix amongst themselves.

The better wording of the last sentence should be "do you believe credit card companies should be regulated in the interest rates they charge"? That is the predicate question.

If the answer is yes, they should be regulated in that -- *then* your question posed becomes relevant.

does that mean you stand against a minimum wage?

Yep.

well, we agree on that, at least the way it is currently constructed and (over)regulated.

(09-26-2024 11:00 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:53 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:49 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Sorry but credit card companies charging 20, 25, 28% and more are simply evil. I don't see a problem with forcing them to charge something reasonable.

And this is from someone that hasn't paid interest on a credit card in decades.

The market is evil. Sounds good. What rate goes to being 'not evil' in your subjective view?

Im not a fan of those rates. But I dont ascribe evil to market forces.

Let the price of money be the price of money.

Wrong argument. Correct one is "Why are credit cards so easily available to those with poor to barely decent credit scores in the first place"?

Because if they weren't available there would be those that would argue that it's unfair that they weren't available. It's a no win situation for the CCard company. The way they provide the credit is to price for the risk.

(09-26-2024 12:26 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-25-2024 10:27 PM)banker Wrote:  Yeah, usury rates are already a thing and the government has long controlled them. The issue is most credit card companies are exempt from state usury laws due to the nature of their business model which involves interstate commerce. This is something they have spent millions upon millions lobbying to keep in place.

So the question is, do you believe credit card companies should be able to buy their way out of regulation on this matter?

I typically come down against price control by the government in pretty much all circumstances. I cant think of a single instance I might support it.

I also think that in addition to the above, that small concentrated market holders shouldnt abuse their market power in antitrust fashion as a counterweight. Nor should groups collude and be free to price fix amongst themselves.

The better wording of the last sentence should be "do you believe credit card companies should be regulated in the interest rates they charge"? That is the predicate question.

If the answer is yes, they should be regulated in that -- *then* your question posed becomes relevant.

Becomes relevant and remains unanswered.

(09-26-2024 12:31 PM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 12:09 PM)Redbanksdog Wrote:  As far as my credit card they call me a dead beat just because I carry no balance.

You are not a profitable customer.

That's a burden I'm willing to carry.