(09-26-2024 08:29 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:22 AM)MemTigers1998 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:17 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 07:56 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 06:49 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  Don't play dumb.

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/29/624467256...atters-now

If you make it all the way to the bottom, you'll realize McConnell didn't even need to use the filibuster here, because they had control of the House Judiciary committee and didn't even let the process get to a filibuster. That didn't stop McConnell from eliminating the filibuster for judicial nominees in 2017 though, conveniently before two more conservative Supreme Court picks

There's not a precedence saying that the Senate had to confirm a SCOTUS nomination during a President's Lame Duck year/term.

I'm not playing dumb at all, but apparently you don't have to play cause you make horrible arguments. But the Senate had the majority and decided they didn't need to review the nomination. But go ahead and continue to explain your pointless argument.. I'll play dumb.. You don't need to... Have a wonderful day sunshine..

It's amazing the pretzels you have to twist yourself into to condone Republican hypocrisy.

Sure is a shame that democrats couldn't filibuster Amy Coney Barrett's warp speed nomination/appointment to both positions she was appointed to, one of them in a lame duck year.

Ya know what else is a shame? All the kids that have died in school waiting for the Republicans to value human lives over NRA money

Compare that to the # of children murdered by Planned Parenthood and get back to us or just STFU with your virtue signaling hypocrisy

Why are clumps of cells more important than elementary school children? Why are guns more important than the lives of children? Why do you accept that Republican politicians take money from gun corporations to keep those gun laws that kill school children?

Are you really that stupid? You really want to play that game?
Let’s go ask a Vietnam vet living in a shopping cart under a viaduct what he thinks about the thousands of illegals living here on the government dime.

(09-26-2024 09:01 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:52 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:39 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:17 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 07:56 AM)gdunn Wrote:  There's not a precedence saying that the Senate had to confirm a SCOTUS nomination during a President's Lame Duck year/term.

I'm not playing dumb at all, but apparently you don't have to play cause you make horrible arguments. But the Senate had the majority and decided they didn't need to review the nomination. But go ahead and continue to explain your pointless argument.. I'll play dumb.. You don't need to... Have a wonderful day sunshine..

It's amazing the pretzels you have to twist yourself into to condone Republican hypocrisy.

Sure is a shame that democrats couldn't filibuster Amy Coney Barrett's warp speed nomination/appointment to both positions she was appointed to, one of them in a lame duck year.

Ya know what else is a shame? All the kids that have died in school waiting for the Republicans to value human lives over NRA money

And yet when the Dems had all the power they didn't do it... But I don't see you calling that out since that is a talking point of the Dems.. Nor did they codify any of the other hundred things they promise..

Open up Kamalaciff, it's coming back in.

And we come full circle, getting back to my original point: The Dems did not have all the power because as long as Republicans have 40 willing senators they have uncontested power to block anything and everything they want.

And conversely the Reps have never held all the power because as long as Dems have 40 willing senators the Dems have the equal uncontested power to block anything and everything they want.

Kind of an odd balance, eh?

That sounds a lot like a "both sides same".

In theory, yes, that's how it is supposed to work. That's not what is happening in practice however, because Republicans have weaponized legislative tools that were built on good-faith instead of rigor.

(09-26-2024 09:11 AM)450bench Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:29 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:22 AM)MemTigers1998 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:17 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 07:56 AM)gdunn Wrote:  There's not a precedence saying that the Senate had to confirm a SCOTUS nomination during a President's Lame Duck year/term.

I'm not playing dumb at all, but apparently you don't have to play cause you make horrible arguments. But the Senate had the majority and decided they didn't need to review the nomination. But go ahead and continue to explain your pointless argument.. I'll play dumb.. You don't need to... Have a wonderful day sunshine..

It's amazing the pretzels you have to twist yourself into to condone Republican hypocrisy.

Sure is a shame that democrats couldn't filibuster Amy Coney Barrett's warp speed nomination/appointment to both positions she was appointed to, one of them in a lame duck year.

Ya know what else is a shame? All the kids that have died in school waiting for the Republicans to value human lives over NRA money

Compare that to the # of children murdered by Planned Parenthood and get back to us or just STFU with your virtue signaling hypocrisy

Why are clumps of cells more important than elementary school children? Why are guns more important than the lives of children? Why do you accept that Republican politicians take money from gun corporations to keep those gun laws that kill school children?

Are you really that stupid? You really want to play that game?
Let’s go ask a Vietnam vet living in a shopping cart under a viaduct what he thinks about the thousands of illegals living here on the government dime.

Why are you more concerned about illegals and not the homeless Vietnam vet?

Do all liberals have a room temperature IQ? The ones who post here are EXTREMELY stupid

(09-26-2024 09:21 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 09:01 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:52 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:39 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:17 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  It's amazing the pretzels you have to twist yourself into to condone Republican hypocrisy.

Sure is a shame that democrats couldn't filibuster Amy Coney Barrett's warp speed nomination/appointment to both positions she was appointed to, one of them in a lame duck year.

Ya know what else is a shame? All the kids that have died in school waiting for the Republicans to value human lives over NRA money

And yet when the Dems had all the power they didn't do it... But I don't see you calling that out since that is a talking point of the Dems.. Nor did they codify any of the other hundred things they promise..

Open up Kamalaciff, it's coming back in.

And we come full circle, getting back to my original point: The Dems did not have all the power because as long as Republicans have 40 willing senators they have uncontested power to block anything and everything they want.

And conversely the Reps have never held all the power because as long as Dems have 40 willing senators the Dems have the equal uncontested power to block anything and everything they want.

Kind of an odd balance, eh?

That sounds a lot like a "both sides same".

In theory, yes, that's how it is supposed to work. That's not what is happening in practice however, because Republicans have weaponized legislative tools that were built on good-faith instead of rigor.

What "legislative tools" exactly are you saying the "Republicans have weaponized"?

(09-26-2024 09:54 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 09:21 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 09:01 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:52 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:39 AM)gdunn Wrote:  And yet when the Dems had all the power they didn't do it... But I don't see you calling that out since that is a talking point of the Dems.. Nor did they codify any of the other hundred things they promise..

Open up Kamalaciff, it's coming back in.

And we come full circle, getting back to my original point: The Dems did not have all the power because as long as Republicans have 40 willing senators they have uncontested power to block anything and everything they want.

And conversely the Reps have never held all the power because as long as Dems have 40 willing senators the Dems have the equal uncontested power to block anything and everything they want.

Kind of an odd balance, eh?

That sounds a lot like a "both sides same".

In theory, yes, that's how it is supposed to work. That's not what is happening in practice however, because Republicans have weaponized legislative tools that were built on good-faith instead of rigor.

What "legislative tools" exactly are you saying the "Republicans have weaponized"?

Here's some light reading that may explain it better than I can

Link

Quote:...
McConnell’s legacy is not that he passed historic laws that transformed American society. It’s that he relegated Congress to second-tier status when it comes to deciding some of the biggest issues of our time. And he did it all while still empowering his Republican Party to dominate the policymaking process.

McConnell achieved this outcome in two ways. The first was a dramatic escalation in filibusters. The second is by filling the federal judiciary with movement conservatives who would bypass Congress altogether and implement Republican policies from the bench.
...
Filibusters used to be exceedingly rare. One common method used to measure the frequency of filibusters is to count the number of “cloture” votes, the process used to break a filibuster, taken every year. And from 1917 until 1970, the Senate held less than one a year.

That number started to rise well before McConnell became his party’s Senate leader. But the rate of cloture votes doubled in 2007, when McConnell first became minority leader. And it has grown rapidly since then. Between 2010 and 2020, the Senate took more than 80 cloture votes every year.
...
This escalation in filibusters, a tactic spearheaded by McConnell, has transformed the role of Congress in society. And it’s similarly transformed what kind of legislation governing parties even attempt to pass.

In the two years when President Joe Biden had a Democratic majority in Congress, for example, all of his major legislative accomplishments — the Inflation Reduction Act, the infrastructure bill, the CHIPS Act, and the American Rescue Plan — were spending bills and not regulatory legislation such as a minimum wage hike or a new voting rights law.
...

More details in the article

(09-26-2024 06:07 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 05:45 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 05:38 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(09-25-2024 09:05 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  Article summary : The Trump tax cuts are expiring, how can we blame that on Harris?

That cannot be a serious question.

I believe this is the same guy that got mad that when Republicans were in power they didn't do anything about gun control but ignored the fact at the time he made the comment the House, Senate, and WH were all Dem controlled.

Too bad the filibuster gives minority parties unlimited veto power

That has to be one of the most idiotic things ever posted on the board.

Once the filibuster is removed this country will no longer be a civil society.

Only a FOOL would want what comes down the pike when his team is not in charge.

Leftists love them some authoritarian dictators.

See Venezuela and Brazilian

(09-26-2024 10:19 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 06:07 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 05:45 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 05:38 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(09-25-2024 09:05 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  Article summary : The Trump tax cuts are expiring, how can we blame that on Harris?

That cannot be a serious question.

I believe this is the same guy that got mad that when Republicans were in power they didn't do anything about gun control but ignored the fact at the time he made the comment the House, Senate, and WH were all Dem controlled.

Too bad the filibuster gives minority parties unlimited veto power

That has to be one of the most idiotic things ever posted on the board.

Once the filibuster is removed this country will no longer be a civil society.

Only a FOOL would want what comes down the pike when his team is not in charge.

Leftists love them some authoritarian dictators.

See Venezuela and Brazilian

And if the filibuster is actually removed it will be the fault of McConnell and the Republicans who benefited from abusing it, so don't expect sympathy from me

(09-26-2024 09:23 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 09:11 AM)450bench Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:29 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:22 AM)MemTigers1998 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:17 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  It's amazing the pretzels you have to twist yourself into to condone Republican hypocrisy.

Sure is a shame that democrats couldn't filibuster Amy Coney Barrett's warp speed nomination/appointment to both positions she was appointed to, one of them in a lame duck year.

Ya know what else is a shame? All the kids that have died in school waiting for the Republicans to value human lives over NRA money

Compare that to the # of children murdered by Planned Parenthood and get back to us or just STFU with your virtue signaling hypocrisy

Why are clumps of cells more important than elementary school children? Why are guns more important than the lives of children? Why do you accept that Republican politicians take money from gun corporations to keep those gun laws that kill school children?

Are you really that stupid? You really want to play that game?
Let’s go ask a Vietnam vet living in a shopping cart under a viaduct what he thinks about the thousands of illegals living here on the government dime.

Why are you more concerned about illegals and not the homeless Vietnam vet?

Thank you for proving my point.

(09-26-2024 10:32 AM)450bench Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 09:23 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 09:11 AM)450bench Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:29 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:22 AM)MemTigers1998 Wrote:  Compare that to the # of children murdered by Planned Parenthood and get back to us or just STFU with your virtue signaling hypocrisy

Why are clumps of cells more important than elementary school children? Why are guns more important than the lives of children? Why do you accept that Republican politicians take money from gun corporations to keep those gun laws that kill school children?

Are you really that stupid? You really want to play that game?
Let’s go ask a Vietnam vet living in a shopping cart under a viaduct what he thinks about the thousands of illegals living here on the government dime.

Why are you more concerned about illegals and not the homeless Vietnam vet?

Thank you for proving my point.

You as well

(09-26-2024 10:23 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:19 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 06:07 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 05:45 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 05:38 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  That cannot be a serious question.

I believe this is the same guy that got mad that when Republicans were in power they didn't do anything about gun control but ignored the fact at the time he made the comment the House, Senate, and WH were all Dem controlled.

Too bad the filibuster gives minority parties unlimited veto power

That has to be one of the most idiotic things ever posted on the board.

Once the filibuster is removed this country will no longer be a civil society.

Only a FOOL would want what comes down the pike when his team is not in charge.

Leftists love them some authoritarian dictators.

See Venezuela and Brazilian

And if the filibuster is actually removed it will be the fault of McConnell and the Republicans who benefited from abusing it, so don't expect sympathy from me

You do understand that most filibusters are never formalized? Just the threat of the filibuster will result in bills never even making it to the floor.

(09-26-2024 10:37 AM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:23 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:19 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 06:07 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 05:45 AM)gdunn Wrote:  I believe this is the same guy that got mad that when Republicans were in power they didn't do anything about gun control but ignored the fact at the time he made the comment the House, Senate, and WH were all Dem controlled.

Too bad the filibuster gives minority parties unlimited veto power

That has to be one of the most idiotic things ever posted on the board.

Once the filibuster is removed this country will no longer be a civil society.

Only a FOOL would want what comes down the pike when his team is not in charge.

Leftists love them some authoritarian dictators.

See Venezuela and Brazilian

And if the filibuster is actually removed it will be the fault of McConnell and the Republicans who benefited from abusing it, so don't expect sympathy from me

You do understand that most filibusters are never formalized? Just the threat of the filibuster will result in bills never even making it to the floor.

Some people in D.C. aren't so eager wasting taxpayer dollars on guaranteed failure, fortunately. Other's are eager to do so if it gets them partisan attention. People like whoever drummed up Benghazi for the 40 bajillionth time

(09-26-2024 10:23 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:19 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 06:07 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 05:45 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 05:38 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  That cannot be a serious question.

I believe this is the same guy that got mad that when Republicans were in power they didn't do anything about gun control but ignored the fact at the time he made the comment the House, Senate, and WH were all Dem controlled.

Too bad the filibuster gives minority parties unlimited veto power

That has to be one of the most idiotic things ever posted on the board.

Once the filibuster is removed this country will no longer be a civil society.

Only a FOOL would want what comes down the pike when his team is not in charge.

Leftists love them some authoritarian dictators.

See Venezuela and Brazilian

And if the filibuster is actually removed it will be the fault of McConnell and the Republicans who benefited from abusing it, so don't expect sympathy from me

Are you really this short sighted? Are you so consumed with having your way you will destroy everything in your path?

(09-26-2024 10:06 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 09:54 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 09:21 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 09:01 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:52 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  And we come full circle, getting back to my original point: The Dems did not have all the power because as long as Republicans have 40 willing senators they have uncontested power to block anything and everything they want.

And conversely the Reps have never held all the power because as long as Dems have 40 willing senators the Dems have the equal uncontested power to block anything and everything they want.

Kind of an odd balance, eh?

That sounds a lot like a "both sides same".

In theory, yes, that's how it is supposed to work. That's not what is happening in practice however, because Republicans have weaponized legislative tools that were built on good-faith instead of rigor.

What "legislative tools" exactly are you saying the "Republicans have weaponized"?

Here's some light reading that may explain it better than I can

Link

Quote:...
McConnell’s legacy is not that he passed historic laws that transformed American society. It’s that he relegated Congress to second-tier status when it comes to deciding some of the biggest issues of our time. And he did it all while still empowering his Republican Party to dominate the policymaking process.

McConnell achieved this outcome in two ways. The first was a dramatic escalation in filibusters. The second is by filling the federal judiciary with movement conservatives who would bypass Congress altogether and implement Republican policies from the bench.
...
Filibusters used to be exceedingly rare. One common method used to measure the frequency of filibusters is to count the number of “cloture” votes, the process used to break a filibuster, taken every year. And from 1917 until 1970, the Senate held less than one a year.

That number started to rise well before McConnell became his party’s Senate leader. But the rate of cloture votes doubled in 2007, when McConnell first became minority leader. And it has grown rapidly since then. Between 2010 and 2020, the Senate took more than 80 cloture votes every year.
...
This escalation in filibusters, a tactic spearheaded by McConnell, has transformed the role of Congress in society. And it’s similarly transformed what kind of legislation governing parties even attempt to pass.

In the two years when President Joe Biden had a Democratic majority in Congress, for example, all of his major legislative accomplishments — the Inflation Reduction Act, the infrastructure bill, the CHIPS Act, and the American Rescue Plan — were spending bills and not regulatory legislation such as a minimum wage hike or a new voting rights law.
...

More details in the article

The problem with that view is that *every* bill in the Senate must be voted out of debate. End of story. Has been the case for hundreds of years. That is everything *except* issues of budget 'reconciliation'.

Most of the time end of debate was accomplished by unanimous consent. Until it wasnt. Nothing was changed at all.

Bummer it was forced into the other path. Why should anything be automatically consented to? Even more so when it has issues in it that one doesnt agree.

Yes McConnell forced the parties to play by the rules. How horrible. I guess.

What it boils down to is that you dont agree with McConnell forcing a political hardball. How dare he play hardball? If so, should he just roll over at your whim and like?

(09-26-2024 10:23 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:19 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 06:07 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 05:45 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 05:38 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  That cannot be a serious question.

I believe this is the same guy that got mad that when Republicans were in power they didn't do anything about gun control but ignored the fact at the time he made the comment the House, Senate, and WH were all Dem controlled.

Too bad the filibuster gives minority parties unlimited veto power

That has to be one of the most idiotic things ever posted on the board.

Once the filibuster is removed this country will no longer be a civil society.

Only a FOOL would want what comes down the pike when his team is not in charge.

Leftists love them some authoritarian dictators.

See Venezuela and Brazilian

And if the filibuster is actually removed it will be the fault of McConnell and the Republicans who benefited from abusing it, so don't expect sympathy from me

Lol. Both sides benefitted greatly from ditching it. Just cut with the 'only the Repubs benefitted'. Thats just simply false.

And -- if it is removed, that will be absolutely the fault of the party that takes that step. Dems removed it for their convenience in a certain topic, the Repubs removed the remainder *in that* topic. A pure 'tit for tat'.

Maybe point to the actions of *both* sides in marching down the path the removal of the filibuster. And the Repubs *responded* to the *first* removal in a rather brilliant, limited, and targeted manner.

And now you are pre-blaming the Rs for any further action? Sorry, that is kind of thin there given the history and facts.

(09-26-2024 10:43 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:37 AM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:23 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:19 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 06:07 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  Too bad the filibuster gives minority parties unlimited veto power

That has to be one of the most idiotic things ever posted on the board.

Once the filibuster is removed this country will no longer be a civil society.

Only a FOOL would want what comes down the pike when his team is not in charge.

Leftists love them some authoritarian dictators.

See Venezuela and Brazilian

And if the filibuster is actually removed it will be the fault of McConnell and the Republicans who benefited from abusing it, so don't expect sympathy from me

You do understand that most filibusters are never formalized? Just the threat of the filibuster will result in bills never even making it to the floor.

Some people in D.C. aren't so eager wasting taxpayer dollars on guaranteed failure, fortunately. Other's are eager to do so if it gets them partisan attention. People like whoever drummed up Benghazi for the 40 bajillionth time

The point is you’re making McConnell out to be the exception to the rule of law making, when every minority leader ultimately filibusters. Some of those are not counted as a formal filibusters, because why bring a bill to the floor when you already know it’s going to get filibustered.

Obama/Schumer brought bills and judges to the floor knowing it was DOA.

(09-26-2024 10:45 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:06 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 09:54 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 09:21 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 09:01 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  And conversely the Reps have never held all the power because as long as Dems have 40 willing senators the Dems have the equal uncontested power to block anything and everything they want.

Kind of an odd balance, eh?

That sounds a lot like a "both sides same".

In theory, yes, that's how it is supposed to work. That's not what is happening in practice however, because Republicans have weaponized legislative tools that were built on good-faith instead of rigor.

What "legislative tools" exactly are you saying the "Republicans have weaponized"?

Here's some light reading that may explain it better than I can

Link

Quote:...
McConnell’s legacy is not that he passed historic laws that transformed American society. It’s that he relegated Congress to second-tier status when it comes to deciding some of the biggest issues of our time. And he did it all while still empowering his Republican Party to dominate the policymaking process.

McConnell achieved this outcome in two ways. The first was a dramatic escalation in filibusters. The second is by filling the federal judiciary with movement conservatives who would bypass Congress altogether and implement Republican policies from the bench.
...
Filibusters used to be exceedingly rare. One common method used to measure the frequency of filibusters is to count the number of “cloture” votes, the process used to break a filibuster, taken every year. And from 1917 until 1970, the Senate held less than one a year.

That number started to rise well before McConnell became his party’s Senate leader. But the rate of cloture votes doubled in 2007, when McConnell first became minority leader. And it has grown rapidly since then. Between 2010 and 2020, the Senate took more than 80 cloture votes every year.
...
This escalation in filibusters, a tactic spearheaded by McConnell, has transformed the role of Congress in society. And it’s similarly transformed what kind of legislation governing parties even attempt to pass.

In the two years when President Joe Biden had a Democratic majority in Congress, for example, all of his major legislative accomplishments — the Inflation Reduction Act, the infrastructure bill, the CHIPS Act, and the American Rescue Plan — were spending bills and not regulatory legislation such as a minimum wage hike or a new voting rights law.
...

More details in the article

The problem with that view is that *every* bill in the Senate must be voted out of debate. End of story. Has been the case for hundreds of years. That is everything *except* issues of budget 'reconciliation'.

Most of the time end of debate was accomplished by unanimous consent. Until it wasnt. Nothing was changed at all.

Bummer it was forced into the other path. Why should anything be automatically consented to? Even more so when it has issues in it that one doesnt agree.

Yes McConnell forced the parties to play by the rules. How horrible. I guess.

What it boils down to is that you dont agree with McConnell forcing a political hardball. How dare he play hardball? If so, should he just roll over at your whim and like?

So what should be done by the democrats then? The Republicans control passage of every bill through the senate as long as the Democrats don't have a filibuster proof supermajority, and they control the means to fix the filibuster to work for today's needs. Should democrats just accept that the only ones allowed to make law are Republicans and their unelected judges?

(09-26-2024 10:55 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:45 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:06 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 09:54 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 09:21 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  That sounds a lot like a "both sides same".

In theory, yes, that's how it is supposed to work. That's not what is happening in practice however, because Republicans have weaponized legislative tools that were built on good-faith instead of rigor.

What "legislative tools" exactly are you saying the "Republicans have weaponized"?

Here's some light reading that may explain it better than I can

Link

Quote:...
McConnell’s legacy is not that he passed historic laws that transformed American society. It’s that he relegated Congress to second-tier status when it comes to deciding some of the biggest issues of our time. And he did it all while still empowering his Republican Party to dominate the policymaking process.

McConnell achieved this outcome in two ways. The first was a dramatic escalation in filibusters. The second is by filling the federal judiciary with movement conservatives who would bypass Congress altogether and implement Republican policies from the bench.
...
Filibusters used to be exceedingly rare. One common method used to measure the frequency of filibusters is to count the number of “cloture” votes, the process used to break a filibuster, taken every year. And from 1917 until 1970, the Senate held less than one a year.

That number started to rise well before McConnell became his party’s Senate leader. But the rate of cloture votes doubled in 2007, when McConnell first became minority leader. And it has grown rapidly since then. Between 2010 and 2020, the Senate took more than 80 cloture votes every year.
...
This escalation in filibusters, a tactic spearheaded by McConnell, has transformed the role of Congress in society. And it’s similarly transformed what kind of legislation governing parties even attempt to pass.

In the two years when President Joe Biden had a Democratic majority in Congress, for example, all of his major legislative accomplishments — the Inflation Reduction Act, the infrastructure bill, the CHIPS Act, and the American Rescue Plan — were spending bills and not regulatory legislation such as a minimum wage hike or a new voting rights law.
...

More details in the article

The problem with that view is that *every* bill in the Senate must be voted out of debate. End of story. Has been the case for hundreds of years. That is everything *except* issues of budget 'reconciliation'.

Most of the time end of debate was accomplished by unanimous consent. Until it wasnt. Nothing was changed at all.

Bummer it was forced into the other path. Why should anything be automatically consented to? Even more so when it has issues in it that one doesnt agree.

Yes McConnell forced the parties to play by the rules. How horrible. I guess.

What it boils down to is that you dont agree with McConnell forcing a political hardball. How dare he play hardball? If so, should he just roll over at your whim and like?

So what should be done by the democrats then? The Republicans control passage of every bill through the senate as long as the Democrats don't have a filibuster proof supermajority, and they control the means to fix the filibuster to work for today's needs. Should democrats just accept that the only ones allowed to make law are Republicans and their unelected judges?

You are missing the very present equal and opposite power the Dems hold in the situation.

The next cycle the Rs will probably hold a 51, maybe 52, outside shot at 53 seat majority in the next Senate. With that in mind -- here is the situation in terms of your own words then:

The Democrats control passage of every bill through the senate as long as the Republicans don't have a filibuster proof supermajority, and they control the means to fix the filibuster to work for today's needs. Should Republicans just accept that the only ones allowed to make law are Democrats and their unelected judges?

And yes, there are many instances of Democrat judges acting in activist manner.

With respect to the control of the Senate passing legislation -- *both* sides are equally hampered currently.

The *next* party to ditch further provisions of the filibuster will be the party increasing the problem. And to the Ds credit this last 4 years -- they havent done so.

(09-26-2024 11:59 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:55 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:45 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 10:06 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 09:54 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  What "legislative tools" exactly are you saying the "Republicans have weaponized"?

Here's some light reading that may explain it better than I can

Link

Quote:...
McConnell’s legacy is not that he passed historic laws that transformed American society. It’s that he relegated Congress to second-tier status when it comes to deciding some of the biggest issues of our time. And he did it all while still empowering his Republican Party to dominate the policymaking process.

McConnell achieved this outcome in two ways. The first was a dramatic escalation in filibusters. The second is by filling the federal judiciary with movement conservatives who would bypass Congress altogether and implement Republican policies from the bench.
...
Filibusters used to be exceedingly rare. One common method used to measure the frequency of filibusters is to count the number of “cloture” votes, the process used to break a filibuster, taken every year. And from 1917 until 1970, the Senate held less than one a year.

That number started to rise well before McConnell became his party’s Senate leader. But the rate of cloture votes doubled in 2007, when McConnell first became minority leader. And it has grown rapidly since then. Between 2010 and 2020, the Senate took more than 80 cloture votes every year.
...
This escalation in filibusters, a tactic spearheaded by McConnell, has transformed the role of Congress in society. And it’s similarly transformed what kind of legislation governing parties even attempt to pass.

In the two years when President Joe Biden had a Democratic majority in Congress, for example, all of his major legislative accomplishments — the Inflation Reduction Act, the infrastructure bill, the CHIPS Act, and the American Rescue Plan — were spending bills and not regulatory legislation such as a minimum wage hike or a new voting rights law.
...

More details in the article

The problem with that view is that *every* bill in the Senate must be voted out of debate. End of story. Has been the case for hundreds of years. That is everything *except* issues of budget 'reconciliation'.

Most of the time end of debate was accomplished by unanimous consent. Until it wasnt. Nothing was changed at all.

Bummer it was forced into the other path. Why should anything be automatically consented to? Even more so when it has issues in it that one doesnt agree.

Yes McConnell forced the parties to play by the rules. How horrible. I guess.

What it boils down to is that you dont agree with McConnell forcing a political hardball. How dare he play hardball? If so, should he just roll over at your whim and like?

So what should be done by the democrats then? The Republicans control passage of every bill through the senate as long as the Democrats don't have a filibuster proof supermajority, and they control the means to fix the filibuster to work for today's needs. Should democrats just accept that the only ones allowed to make law are Republicans and their unelected judges?

You are missing the very present equal and opposite power the Dems hold in the situation.

The next cycle the Rs will probably hold a 51, maybe 52, outside shot at 53 seat majority in the next Senate. With that in mind -- here is the situation in terms of your own words then:

The Democrats control passage of every bill through the senate as long as the Republicans don't have a filibuster proof supermajority, and they control the means to fix the filibuster to work for today's needs. Should Republicans just accept that the only ones allowed to make law are Democrats and their unelected judges?

And yes, there are many instances of Democrat judges acting in activist manner.

With respect to the control of the Senate passing legislation -- *both* sides are equally hampered currently.

The *next* party to ditch further provisions of the filibuster will be the party increasing the problem. And to the Ds credit this last 4 years -- they havent done so.

You're missing one thing. The filibuster gridlock only prevents the passage of bills. Democrats could play the same game as the Republicans and in the end, the only thing that will happen is exactly what's been happening since Sandy Hook. Absolutely. Nothing. Which is perfectly ok for Republicans, because the conservative judges they've packed into every level of the judiciary does the law writing for them.

If you insist on continuing to both sides this, then surely you can point me to a democratic judge, legislating from the bench, with as much authority that Clarence Thomas, John Roberts, and Samuel Alito enjoy? They've put out such great hits like Presidential Immunity, overturning Roe v Wade, Chevron Deference... with a court like that who needs a Republican majority in the senate?

Let me ask you the same question then worded differently: What tools, beyond the Senate, do democrats have to effectively pass laws when the filibuster blocks them? Republicans have another option, do the democrats? From my perspective, it is only the ability to govern the budget (as mentioned in the article I posted, Inflation Reduction Act, Chips Act, etc.), which is only possible when Democrats win the White House... which (as often noted on this board) Democrats need a +3% popular vote to even have a chance at the electoral college.

(09-26-2024 08:29 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:22 AM)MemTigers1998 Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 08:17 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 07:56 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(09-26-2024 06:49 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  Don't play dumb.

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/29/624467256...atters-now

If you make it all the way to the bottom, you'll realize McConnell didn't even need to use the filibuster here, because they had control of the House Judiciary committee and didn't even let the process get to a filibuster. That didn't stop McConnell from eliminating the filibuster for judicial nominees in 2017 though, conveniently before two more conservative Supreme Court picks

There's not a precedence saying that the Senate had to confirm a SCOTUS nomination during a President's Lame Duck year/term.

I'm not playing dumb at all, but apparently you don't have to play cause you make horrible arguments. But the Senate had the majority and decided they didn't need to review the nomination. But go ahead and continue to explain your pointless argument.. I'll play dumb.. You don't need to... Have a wonderful day sunshine..

It's amazing the pretzels you have to twist yourself into to condone Republican hypocrisy.

Sure is a shame that democrats couldn't filibuster Amy Coney Barrett's warp speed nomination/appointment to both positions she was appointed to, one of them in a lame duck year.

Ya know what else is a shame? All the kids that have died in school waiting for the Republicans to value human lives over NRA money

Compare that to the # of children murdered by Planned Parenthood and get back to us or just STFU with your virtue signaling hypocrisy

Why are clumps of cells more important than elementary school children? Why are guns more important than the lives of children? Why do you accept that Republican politicians take money from gun corporations to keep those gun laws that kill school children?

Who knew laws kill people

I could have sworn people kill people.



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