https://theathletic.com/4997996/2023/10/...on-tipoff/

Quote:Atlantic Coast Conference commissioner Jim Phillips, speaking Wednesday for the first time since the league’s decision to add Cal, Stanford and SMU, reiterated why the league opted to expand — but did not preclude additional future movement.

“Getting to 18 protects the ACC, now and into the future,” Phillips said at ACC Tipoff. “Schools will ultimately make the decisions that they want.”

Quote:Asked about what the ACC basketball tournament will look like with 18 teams, Phillips said he isn’t necessarily married to the idea that all teams participate. “I don’t know that we would invite 18 teams to an ACC men’s or women’s basketball championship,” he added. “We’ll do what the membership wants. I don’t feel like that’s something that we should do. I’ve told them that. I’m not speaking out of turn.

“I think you’ve got to earn your way to play in, I think, the most prestigious postseason basketball tournaments in the country — and if you don’t get to a certain threshold, then you just don’t make it that year.”

Possibilities:
Top 12 get in (top 4 byes, 4 days)
Top 16 get in (no true byes, 5 days)
All 18 get in (double-byes, 6 days)

I hope it's 12 or 16 - I hate the idea of stretching it out further!

(10-26-2023 05:44 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Possibilities:
Top 12 get in (top 4 byes, 4 days)
Top 16 get in (no true byes, 5 days)
All 18 get in (double-byes, 6 days)

I hope it's 12 or 16 - I hate the idea of stretching it out further!

I'd want 12. You don't want to wear everyone out right before the NCAAT begins, especially your top teams. The SEC lets all 14 in now, I'm hoping that we go down to 12 after adding OUT.

Day 1

16 vs. 17
15 vs. 18
(1-14 have byes)

Day 2

9 vs. 16-17 winner
12 vs. 13
11 vs. 14
10 vs. 15-18 winner
(1-8 have byes)

Day 3
8 vs. 9/16/17 winner
5 vs. 12-13 winner
6 vs. 11-14 winner
7 vs. 10/15/18 winner
(1-4 have byes)

Day 4 Quarterfinals
1 vs. 8/9/16/17 winner
4 vs. 5/12/13 winner
3 vs. 6/11/14 winner
2 vs. 7/10/15/18 winner

Day 5 Semifinals
1/8/9/16/17 winner vs. 4/5/12/13 winner
2/7/10/15/18 winner vs. 3/6/11/14 winner

Day 6 Finals

It seems 14 might work well for the ACC.

(10-26-2023 12:56 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  It seems 14 make work well for the ACC.

Previous model was a 15-team format with single bye/double bye format (1-4 had double bye, 5-9 had single bye) over five games. Going to 18 would only add an additional day, but unless they go back to a Sunday final, that would mean the conference tournament starts on Monday, which could be problematic with some teams ending their regular seasons the day before.

18 can be done in 5 days. Only the top 3 get double byes, top 8 get single bye. It doesn't require an extra day, just one more gym slot for rounds one and two.

round one:
9 vs 18
10 vs 17
11 vs 16
12 vs 15
13 vs 14

round two:
8 vs winner of 9/18
7 vs winner of 10/17
6 vs winner of 11/16
5 vs winner of 12/15
4 vs winner of 13/14

quarterfinals:
1 vs winner of game with 8 seed
2 vs winner of game with 7 seed
3 vs winner of game with 6 seed
winners of games with 4 and 5 seeds

semifinals:

championship:

This gives the 8 top teams who are likely all NCAA tournament-bound, a bye, and your top three who are your real hopes for a deep run, two byes. But yeah, I can see it being restricted to 16. But I would think membership would prefer all 18 because it gives even the worst schools some end of season hope. Otherwise, it's damn near certain the coach gets fired.

I would be in favor of making it an exclusive event (not all programs participate), but I sincerely doubt that ADs and Presidents would be in favor of that. I'd be curious to see if we inevitably see a model for mega conferences to hold a basketball tournament within the same city but at different venues. Not sure it would even be doable, but why not consider using an NFL-sized indoor stadium and just setting up two courts for the duration of the week (especially if the Carolina Panthers are successful long-term in building a new stadium). Even Washington is likely to get a new stadium in the coming years.

(10-26-2023 05:44 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Possibilities:
Top 12 get in (top 4 byes, 4 days)
Top 16 get in (no true byes, 5 days)
All 18 get in (double-byes, 6 days)

I hope it's 12 or 16 - I hate the idea of stretching it out further!

Well you could have 2 to 4 play-in games on Tuesday at home sites.
15-18, 16-17, two winners go to tourney
Or 11-18, 12-17, 13-16, 14-15, 4 winners go to tourney and #1 and #2 get first round byes.
Of course, you could also have 3 (1 bye, #1-#12 guaranteed to tourney) or 5 (3 byes (#1-#8 guaranteed to tourney) or 6 (4 byes, #1-#6 guaranteed to tourney) play in games.

(10-26-2023 01:37 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-26-2023 05:44 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Possibilities:
Top 12 get in (top 4 byes, 4 days)
Top 16 get in (no true byes, 5 days)
All 18 get in (double-byes, 6 days)

I hope it's 12 or 16 - I hate the idea of stretching it out further!

Well you could have 2 to 4 play-in games on Tuesday at home sites.
15-18, 16-17, two winners go to tourney
Or 11-18, 12-17, 13-16, 14-15, 4 winners go to tourney and #1 and #2 get first round byes.
Of course, you could also have 3 (1 bye, #1-#12 guaranteed to tourney) or 5 (3 byes (#1-#8 guaranteed to tourney) or 6 (4 byes, #1-#6 guaranteed to tourney) play in games.

The only problem with that is the 17th and 18th teams would potentially have to travel twice in two days.

My five first round and five second round games is the most logical approach. It gives the #1 seed an extra bonus, as the #4/#5 seed winner (if they survive) will have played one more game already than the #1 seed.

The only issue in my approach is a 5th gym slot for a gym. Easy in a complex like UNLV with two full sized gyms. For a single gym you could do it, but it means an AM game (say 10am, 12:30pm, 3pm, 5:30pm, 8pm slots) and a little bit tight scheduling. Four games is easier to schedule with a bit more spacing (11am, 2pm, 5pm, 8pm). But for rounds one and two, which are low TV watch numbers, mostly shunted to conference network (ACCN) five games is probably quite fine.

If you are arguing about the four seed getting only one bye instead of two, which is the big advantage of a 16 team tournament, well that is hardly make or break point.

(10-26-2023 01:16 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I would be in favor of making it an exclusive event (not all programs participate), but I sincerely doubt that ADs and Presidents would be in favor of that. I'd be curious to see if we inevitably see a model for mega conferences to hold a basketball tournament within the same city but at different venues. Not sure it would even be doable, but why not consider using an NFL-sized indoor stadium and just setting up two courts for the duration of the week (especially if the Carolina Panthers are successful long-term in building a new stadium). Even Washington is likely to get a new stadium in the coming years.

I agree that I would be extremely surprised if the ACC (or anyone else that has expanded like the Big Ten) would leave anyone out because the Presidents are caring about an entirely different set of priorities than the fans. There is only one purpose for the existence of any conference basketball tournament: a pure unadulterated money grab. If conferences actually cared about what was competitively fair, then they would just rely on the results of 20+ conference regular season games and conference tournaments wouldn’t exist at all in the first place.

I’m doubtful that we’ll get to a point where multiple venues are held for the mega-conferences. TV time slot exclusivity is so important that it ends up defeating the main advantage of having multiple venues (which is to be able to hold multiple games at the same time).

(10-25-2023 02:07 PM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  

Quote:Atlantic Coast Conference commissioner Jim Phillips, speaking Wednesday for the first time since the league’s decision to add Cal, Stanford and SMU, reiterated why the league opted to expand — but did not preclude additional future movement.

“Getting to 18 protects the ACC, now and into the future,” Phillips said at ACC Tipoff. “Schools will ultimately make the decisions that they want.”

Why does a conference with an ironclad GoR — one we're told would cost a departing school a half-billion dollars or more to break — need protection?

And how protected will the ACC be if/when a half-dozen or more schools leave for either the SEC or B1G?

(10-26-2023 01:04 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  18 can be done in 5 days. Only the top 3 get double byes, top 8 get single bye. It doesn't require an extra day, just one more gym slot for rounds one and two.

round one:
9 vs 18
10 vs 17
11 vs 16
12 vs 15
13 vs 14

round two:
8 vs winner of 9/18
7 vs winner of 10/17
6 vs winner of 11/16
5 vs winner of 12/15
4 vs winner of 13/14

quarterfinals:
1 vs winner of game with 8 seed
2 vs winner of game with 7 seed
3 vs winner of game with 6 seed
winners of games with 4 and 5 seeds

semifinals:

championship:

This gives the 8 top teams who are likely all NCAA tournament-bound, a bye, and your top three who are your real hopes for a deep run, two byes. But yeah, I can see it being restricted to 16. But I would think membership would prefer all 18 because it gives even the worst schools some end of season hope. Otherwise, it's damn near certain the coach gets fired.

I hardly follow basketball, but this would be my solution as well. 5 games a day may be more difficult. Top “3” get double-byes may be less intuitive. But it gets you what you need without the 6th day.

(10-26-2023 02:05 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(10-25-2023 02:07 PM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  

Quote:Atlantic Coast Conference commissioner Jim Phillips, speaking Wednesday for the first time since the league’s decision to add Cal, Stanford and SMU, reiterated why the league opted to expand — but did not preclude additional future movement.

“Getting to 18 protects the ACC, now and into the future,” Phillips said at ACC Tipoff. “Schools will ultimately make the decisions that they want.”

Why does a conference with an ironclad GoR — one we're told would cost a departing school a half-billion dollars or more to break — need protection?

Because it won't last forever in any event. And my best guess is that it has absolutely zero chance of being renewed.

Quote:And how protected will the ACC be if/when a half-dozen or more schools leave for either the SEC or B1G?

Better protected with 17 football members than they would be under the same scenario with 14 football members.

So only three schools are seriously considering exiting early?

The other 14 (or 13.5) are solid until at least 2036?

(10-26-2023 03:36 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  So only three schools are seriously considering exiting early?

The other 14 (or 13.5) are solid until at least 2036?

Not sure if you're referring to me, but the three additional was a reference to the three new members, not to the timing of anyone leaving. If the ACC has 14 members and the P2 grab six, that leaves eight, with the Big XII still in play. If the ACC has 17 members and the P2 grabs six, that leaves 11. Much better chance under those circumstances that the rest of the ACC stays together.

No point in playing conference tournaments with the expanded March Madness. It just wears teams out.

(10-26-2023 02:02 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(10-26-2023 01:16 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I would be in favor of making it an exclusive event (not all programs participate), but I sincerely doubt that ADs and Presidents would be in favor of that. I'd be curious to see if we inevitably see a model for mega conferences to hold a basketball tournament within the same city but at different venues. Not sure it would even be doable, but why not consider using an NFL-sized indoor stadium and just setting up two courts for the duration of the week (especially if the Carolina Panthers are successful long-term in building a new stadium). Even Washington is likely to get a new stadium in the coming years.

I agree that I would be extremely surprised if the ACC (or anyone else that has expanded like the Big Ten) would leave anyone out because the Presidents are caring about an entirely different set of priorities than the fans. There is only one purpose for the existence of any conference basketball tournament: a pure unadulterated money grab. If conferences actually cared about what was competitively fair, then they would just rely on the results of 20+ conference regular season games and conference tournaments wouldn’t exist at all in the first place.

I’m doubtful that we’ll get to a point where multiple venues are held for the mega-conferences. TV time slot exclusivity is so important that it ends up defeating the main advantage of having multiple venues (which is to be able to hold multiple games at the same time).

Obviously the money is the most important driver.

But what if lower ranked teams beat the bubble teams in a conference tounarment, resulting in loss of NCAA bids (and money!)?

I think the ACC will go with the 16 team double bye model.

Does it make money? Inviting all requires adding a sixth day to the tournament. I can't imagine the costs of an extra day are so trivial that an 80% empty arena on day 1 is a big profit maker.