(10-25-2023 07:33 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote: (10-25-2023 07:21 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: (10-25-2023 06:54 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote: (10-25-2023 06:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: (10-25-2023 06:20 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: I just don't see this as "widespread and persistent fraud." In fact, I'm having a hard time seeing it as any form of fraud.
What do *you* call simply lying about values of items on a financial statement?
Literally hundreds of items, with a huge impact on the net result?
What do *you* call it when presenting those false valuations to a lender?
If I tell you 'the car I am selling you is worth 30,000', when the engine is a junker and I know that, that is an active lie -- one that is absolutely a fraudulent act. Notwithstanding you doing diligence or not. Kind of hard to escape that as such.
And yes, I consider several hundred items over scores of years 'widespread and persistent'. Do you call it 'sparing'?
Im perfectly comfortable noting what I see in the record as fraudulent acts. And as widespread and persistent. Kind of a basic tautology.
Your analogies are always garbage. EVERY business owner trying to get a business loan embellishes their values. And their Bankers push those values in loan committee, and always will. That us why there are appraisers.
So in your opinion above, it is perfectly okay to lie on financial statements presented to third parties? I think a simple yes or no will suffice....
Yes. As long as no one is affected. Which in this case no one was, because it is not lying. It is puffing. Happens everyday in real estate. Lying is I own this property when I don't or making up bogus tax returns like Avenatti did. Trump saying properties are worth A is not lying. The only way he can proven wrong is by exposing it to the market and procuring an arm's length transaction. EVERY property I've ever listed the owner told me it was worth more than it sold for or didn't sell at all. None of them got indicted.
Thats not what this law says, eagle.
This law, like every other state AG enforcement action statute that exists in every other state, simply says the following:
If you lie or make material misrepresentations, and you do it in business, and you do it persistently --- the state can sue to shut you down. Period.
And each state uses this provision of their law probably scores, if not hundreds, of times a year.
I guess you have a bee in your bonnet about state AG fraud enforcement actions as a whole?
But the troubling thing is that you think it acceptable and proper to lie on a financial statement.
Okay for a lender to lie about the interest rate they are going to charge you?
Edited to add: when Trump values a property as unencumbered, when it actually has massive deed and use restrictions, I will differ with you and say that lie is wholly unacceptable.
When his defense to the particular issue is "I can sue to undo the transfer of easement, and that end result is the vlaue" (which is what he did in his filings with the court mind you) -- that kind of utterly defeats the notion of a valuation.
The valuation is of the object, here and now, as it stands. Not a 'might be' if I sue to unwind a deeded easement, not a 'might be' if a local government unwinds use restrictions. It isnt that hard. And it isnt that hard to see the absolute blatant lying -- even to the court.
Using that logic, my beat to hell 14 year old Expedition with 200k miles -- 50k hard ranch miles --- I guess it is okay to value it as brand new with the 'Trump valuation scheme' that he actually admits to in his arguments to the court. Cant wait to use that cherry, brand new valuation in a trade in.
As for your last line -- read the beginning 5 or 6 paragraphs for a summary of the law in question. Pretty stark difference in what that is and your hypothetical at the end.
