(09-20-2023 12:42 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:12 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 11:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 10:47 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 10:14 AM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  This is indeed true for those conducting the measurements and those satisfied with the overall results if their individual interests are favorable.

I’ve said this for decades, given the complexities of higher education institutions, stacking perceived value of 400+ institutions from #1 to whatever, incorporating multiple variables some of which are highly subjective, yield opinionated results and less so results based on a scientific research method. There is deliberate rank-order, but I am doubtful any USN&WR tabulators dealt with any standard deviations, analysis of variance, analysis of co-variance, control groups, etc. For example, there is no explaining how Villanova is better than the University of Tennessee beyond a ranked number. There is insufficient information for the observer to make calculations on substance by comparing one or more rankings.

An English professor at Boston University ranking the English Department at Ole Miss, and knows little to nothing about Ole Miss’ English Department is absurd. USN&WR does this flawed methodology. A source at the University of Virginia, knowing very little about Boise State for example, has no business ranking Boise State among 400 or so other colleges and universities. Pre-conceived notions doesn’t cut it. It would be more useful for USN&WR to use a “panel of experts” to conduct the subjective assessed values rather than incorporating a huge mass of poorly or narrowly informed evaluators.

SAT scores, enrollment sizes, spectrum of majors, library holdings, academic facilities, tuition costs, percentage of professors with doctorates, student-faculty ratios, endowments, student life/learning environment/safety and activities, job placements, graduation rates, meeting mission goals, diversity, student satisfaction surveys, etc, are real factors in determining institutional value. USN&WR can attempt to stack some data such as SAT/ACT scores or graduation rates or tuition costs, but certainly the magazine cannot synthesize all of it. And how much weight is given to each chosen variable to be assessed, is in itself, a subjective approach.

On another point, Ivy League schools and other elite Universities, have used “legacy admissions” from the get-go. An applicant who has a parent or another close relative, who is a generous contributor and/or has prominent career success, may receive special consideration for admissions.

Don’t think elite universities are not “dipping” when it comes to athletic recruiting. Some places that can extend to band members, cheerleaders, student government experience, etc.

Legacy admissions happens at most state schools too... For example, at University of Texas, you have to be in the top 6% of your public school class to get in automatically. Beyond that, the admissions office has discretion. The discretionary spots are disproportionately awarded to students at elite private schools in Austin, Houston, and Dallas as well as public schools in wealthy areas of the state (i.e. Westlake, Highland Park, etc).

Legacy admissions do NOT happen at the University of Texas. I also know they do not happen at the University of Georgia. I don't think they happen at many state schools anymore. Now pretty much every school will open slots for donors and people with connections. While you may be right about the private schools and wealthy area public schools, those students probably have much higher test scores. The 10th percentile at St. Mark's, Highland Park, St. John's and Memorial are probably better students than the Valedictorians at most Texas high schools.

I call BS on the legacy/preferential admissions piece, from my own personal experience. I had five generations of family go to UT before me, but did not grow up in Texas so I had no guaranteed route into the school. When I applied to UT, I had a state rep who was a friend of my grandfather write a recommendation letter for me. Voila, three weeks later I was accepted (ended up not going, as my profile would indicate). The DMN wrote an article about this exact phenomenon https://www.dallasnews.com/news/educatio...ert-says/.

Also, I'd comment difficult to separate cause and effect on this.. Is UT accepting students from St. John's because they're superior to other students or are they accepting students from St. John's because they know it is a signaling device that the student/parents are well-connected/influential (and very possibly went to UT)? I'm not trying to pick on St. John's... Its students certainly outperform the median Texas high school by a wide, wide margin..

You aren't making your point. Couldn't read the DMN article, but it was about pulling strings. You had a state representative write you a letter. You didn't get in because of the legacy of 5 generations. You got in because someone influential wrote a letter. I know plenty of people who went to UT who can't get their kids in.

I agree with the poster who said that 2.0 students are not getting into UT because their parent went there. There's no box to check on the application that makes someone an auto-admit. There isn't at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, or Rice either...

However, many of the top 6-15% students whose parents went to UT at a school like Highland Park, Memorial, Alamo Heights, etc. have the same type of connections that I had, which help get them into school. Not all, but many. If it's not legacy admissions, I guess you can call it "Good 'Ole Boy Network" admissions, which isn't very different in spirit.

I don't know if it's been said yet but Penn State (60) passed Pittsburgh (67) for #1 public in PA. It's good to be back on top!

(09-20-2023 02:47 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:42 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:12 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 11:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 10:47 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  Legacy admissions happens at most state schools too... For example, at University of Texas, you have to be in the top 6% of your public school class to get in automatically. Beyond that, the admissions office has discretion. The discretionary spots are disproportionately awarded to students at elite private schools in Austin, Houston, and Dallas as well as public schools in wealthy areas of the state (i.e. Westlake, Highland Park, etc).

Legacy admissions do NOT happen at the University of Texas. I also know they do not happen at the University of Georgia. I don't think they happen at many state schools anymore. Now pretty much every school will open slots for donors and people with connections. While you may be right about the private schools and wealthy area public schools, those students probably have much higher test scores. The 10th percentile at St. Mark's, Highland Park, St. John's and Memorial are probably better students than the Valedictorians at most Texas high schools.

I call BS on the legacy/preferential admissions piece, from my own personal experience. I had five generations of family go to UT before me, but did not grow up in Texas so I had no guaranteed route into the school. When I applied to UT, I had a state rep who was a friend of my grandfather write a recommendation letter for me. Voila, three weeks later I was accepted (ended up not going, as my profile would indicate). The DMN wrote an article about this exact phenomenon https://www.dallasnews.com/news/educatio...ert-says/.

Also, I'd comment difficult to separate cause and effect on this.. Is UT accepting students from St. John's because they're superior to other students or are they accepting students from St. John's because they know it is a signaling device that the student/parents are well-connected/influential (and very possibly went to UT)? I'm not trying to pick on St. John's... Its students certainly outperform the median Texas high school by a wide, wide margin..

You aren't making your point. Couldn't read the DMN article, but it was about pulling strings. You had a state representative write you a letter. You didn't get in because of the legacy of 5 generations. You got in because someone influential wrote a letter. I know plenty of people who went to UT who can't get their kids in.

I agree with the poster who said that 2.0 students are not getting into UT because their parent went there. There's no box to check on the application that makes someone an auto-admit. There isn't at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, or Rice either...

However, many of the top 6-15% students whose parents went to UT at a school like Highland Park, Memorial, Alamo Heights, etc. have the same type of connections that I had, which help get them into school. Not all, but many. If it's not legacy admissions, I guess you can call it "Good 'Ole Boy Network" admissions, which isn't very different in spirit.

Actually, I would say its worse and is in a different spirit. There is no question a value to having networking connections. But those people may have no other connection to the university, other than knowing someone. When legacy doesn't matter, when your kids can't get into your alma mater, it tends to weaken the connection with alumni. When people with no connection to the school other than knowing someone influential can get in, that weakens the connection with alumni.

But that's the world. I was at a talk and the guy, who had explored all this, was telling us how much it cost in donations to get into UVA or Harvard. He never told his child, but he bought her way into Boston College.

And connections matter in the work world. Most higher level jobs get filled through word of mouth. I had 5 jobs after my initial one out of school. In 4 of them, they contacted me. In the other, i knew someone advising the CFO. And I did a really poor job of networking. At least 4 of the 5 (and possibly all 5-they didn't remember where they got my resume) came directly or indirectly from the only person I kept in touch with more than 2-3 years after college. I tell my kids, think of how many opportunities you will have if you have several dozen contacts instead of 1.

(09-20-2023 03:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 02:47 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:42 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:12 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 11:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  Legacy admissions do NOT happen at the University of Texas. I also know they do not happen at the University of Georgia. I don't think they happen at many state schools anymore. Now pretty much every school will open slots for donors and people with connections. While you may be right about the private schools and wealthy area public schools, those students probably have much higher test scores. The 10th percentile at St. Mark's, Highland Park, St. John's and Memorial are probably better students than the Valedictorians at most Texas high schools.

I call BS on the legacy/preferential admissions piece, from my own personal experience. I had five generations of family go to UT before me, but did not grow up in Texas so I had no guaranteed route into the school. When I applied to UT, I had a state rep who was a friend of my grandfather write a recommendation letter for me. Voila, three weeks later I was accepted (ended up not going, as my profile would indicate). The DMN wrote an article about this exact phenomenon https://www.dallasnews.com/news/educatio...ert-says/.

Also, I'd comment difficult to separate cause and effect on this.. Is UT accepting students from St. John's because they're superior to other students or are they accepting students from St. John's because they know it is a signaling device that the student/parents are well-connected/influential (and very possibly went to UT)? I'm not trying to pick on St. John's... Its students certainly outperform the median Texas high school by a wide, wide margin..

You aren't making your point. Couldn't read the DMN article, but it was about pulling strings. You had a state representative write you a letter. You didn't get in because of the legacy of 5 generations. You got in because someone influential wrote a letter. I know plenty of people who went to UT who can't get their kids in.

I agree with the poster who said that 2.0 students are not getting into UT because their parent went there. There's no box to check on the application that makes someone an auto-admit. There isn't at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, or Rice either...

However, many of the top 6-15% students whose parents went to UT at a school like Highland Park, Memorial, Alamo Heights, etc. have the same type of connections that I had, which help get them into school. Not all, but many. If it's not legacy admissions, I guess you can call it "Good 'Ole Boy Network" admissions, which isn't very different in spirit.

Actually, I would say its worse and is in a different spirit. There is no question a value to having networking connections. But those people may have no other connection to the university, other than knowing someone. When legacy doesn't matter, when your kids can't get into your alma mater, it tends to weaken the connection with alumni. When people with no connection to the school other than knowing someone influential can get in, that weakens the connection with alumni.

But that's the world. I was at a talk and the guy, who had explored all this, was telling us how much it cost in donations to get into UVA or Harvard. He never told his child, but he bought her way into Boston College.

And connections matter in the work world. Most higher level jobs get filled through word of mouth. I had 5 jobs after my initial one out of school. In 4 of them, they contacted me. In the other, i knew someone advising the CFO. And I did a really poor job of networking. At least 4 of the 5 (and possibly all 5-they didn't remember where they got my resume) came directly or indirectly from the only person I kept in touch with more than 2-3 years after college. I tell my kids, think of how many opportunities you will have if you have several dozen contacts instead of 1.

Neither of my kids got into Rice but both went to other great schools. I figure someone in the admissions office remembered me. I'd call it a negative legacy, a negacy.

(09-20-2023 03:58 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 03:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 02:47 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:42 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:12 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  I call BS on the legacy/preferential admissions piece, from my own personal experience. I had five generations of family go to UT before me, but did not grow up in Texas so I had no guaranteed route into the school. When I applied to UT, I had a state rep who was a friend of my grandfather write a recommendation letter for me. Voila, three weeks later I was accepted (ended up not going, as my profile would indicate). The DMN wrote an article about this exact phenomenon https://www.dallasnews.com/news/educatio...ert-says/.

Also, I'd comment difficult to separate cause and effect on this.. Is UT accepting students from St. John's because they're superior to other students or are they accepting students from St. John's because they know it is a signaling device that the student/parents are well-connected/influential (and very possibly went to UT)? I'm not trying to pick on St. John's... Its students certainly outperform the median Texas high school by a wide, wide margin..

You aren't making your point. Couldn't read the DMN article, but it was about pulling strings. You had a state representative write you a letter. You didn't get in because of the legacy of 5 generations. You got in because someone influential wrote a letter. I know plenty of people who went to UT who can't get their kids in.

I agree with the poster who said that 2.0 students are not getting into UT because their parent went there. There's no box to check on the application that makes someone an auto-admit. There isn't at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, or Rice either...

However, many of the top 6-15% students whose parents went to UT at a school like Highland Park, Memorial, Alamo Heights, etc. have the same type of connections that I had, which help get them into school. Not all, but many. If it's not legacy admissions, I guess you can call it "Good 'Ole Boy Network" admissions, which isn't very different in spirit.

Actually, I would say its worse and is in a different spirit. There is no question a value to having networking connections. But those people may have no other connection to the university, other than knowing someone. When legacy doesn't matter, when your kids can't get into your alma mater, it tends to weaken the connection with alumni. When people with no connection to the school other than knowing someone influential can get in, that weakens the connection with alumni.

But that's the world. I was at a talk and the guy, who had explored all this, was telling us how much it cost in donations to get into UVA or Harvard. He never told his child, but he bought her way into Boston College.

And connections matter in the work world. Most higher level jobs get filled through word of mouth. I had 5 jobs after my initial one out of school. In 4 of them, they contacted me. In the other, i knew someone advising the CFO. And I did a really poor job of networking. At least 4 of the 5 (and possibly all 5-they didn't remember where they got my resume) came directly or indirectly from the only person I kept in touch with more than 2-3 years after college. I tell my kids, think of how many opportunities you will have if you have several dozen contacts instead of 1.

Neither of my kids got into Rice but both went to other great schools. I figure someone in the admissions office remembered me. I'd call it a negative legacy, a negacy.

Well those horns do make you memorable

(09-20-2023 03:27 PM)schmolik Wrote:  I don't know if it's been said yet but Penn State (60) passed Pittsburgh (67) for #1 public in PA. It's good to be back on top!

Which just makes it more weird that PSU and Pitt don't play each other in football every year. 2 P5 schools in the same state with similar academic rankings. Sounds like it would be a popular game that would be good for the state, and just plainly a fun rivalry. What's stopping PSU from playing Pitt every year?

(09-20-2023 03:27 PM)schmolik Wrote:  I don't know if it's been said yet but Penn State (60) passed Pittsburgh (67) for #1 public in PA. It's good to be back on top!

And Temple continues to make up ground on both. Up to #89....

(09-20-2023 02:47 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:42 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:12 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 11:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 10:47 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  Legacy admissions happens at most state schools too... For example, at University of Texas, you have to be in the top 6% of your public school class to get in automatically. Beyond that, the admissions office has discretion. The discretionary spots are disproportionately awarded to students at elite private schools in Austin, Houston, and Dallas as well as public schools in wealthy areas of the state (i.e. Westlake, Highland Park, etc).

Legacy admissions do NOT happen at the University of Texas. I also know they do not happen at the University of Georgia. I don't think they happen at many state schools anymore. Now pretty much every school will open slots for donors and people with connections. While you may be right about the private schools and wealthy area public schools, those students probably have much higher test scores. The 10th percentile at St. Mark's, Highland Park, St. John's and Memorial are probably better students than the Valedictorians at most Texas high schools.

I call BS on the legacy/preferential admissions piece, from my own personal experience. I had five generations of family go to UT before me, but did not grow up in Texas so I had no guaranteed route into the school. When I applied to UT, I had a state rep who was a friend of my grandfather write a recommendation letter for me. Voila, three weeks later I was accepted (ended up not going, as my profile would indicate). The DMN wrote an article about this exact phenomenon https://www.dallasnews.com/news/educatio...ert-says/.

Also, I'd comment difficult to separate cause and effect on this.. Is UT accepting students from St. John's because they're superior to other students or are they accepting students from St. John's because they know it is a signaling device that the student/parents are well-connected/influential (and very possibly went to UT)? I'm not trying to pick on St. John's... Its students certainly outperform the median Texas high school by a wide, wide margin..

You aren't making your point. Couldn't read the DMN article, but it was about pulling strings. You had a state representative write you a letter. You didn't get in because of the legacy of 5 generations. You got in because someone influential wrote a letter. I know plenty of people who went to UT who can't get their kids in.

I agree with the poster who said that 2.0 students are not getting into UT because their parent went there. There's no box to check on the application that makes someone an auto-admit. There isn't at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, or Rice either...

However, many of the top 6-15% students whose parents went to UT at a school like Highland Park, Memorial, Alamo Heights, etc. have the same type of connections that I had, which help get them into school. Not all, but many. If it's not legacy admissions, I guess you can call it "Good 'Ole Boy Network" admissions, which isn't very different in spirit.

After having spent 4 years as a kid in a bottom 25% high school, and now seeing my own kids spend years in a top 5% high school (both public’s), I’d say that there is a very real difference in the quality of student that each produces. Maybe the quality of instruction is comparable, though we had no AP classes and no access to them through a local college when I was in hs, but the quality of the actual graduates can vary widely from school to school in most cases. But not at highland Park, or Memorial, or Austin Westlake. The kids at the 15th or 20th percentile this year will be similar to the kids at that same rank from past years, and they’ll generally be far better-prepared for life at A&M or UT, and at least as successful as the average kid from a weaker school who had a much higher class rank.

Another thing I remember from my early years in college is how I was the only kid I knew who was an engineering major and didn’t take calculus in high school. All of my buddies, guys from other outfits, random people I knew from class, they’d ALL had calculus before. My high didn’t offer calculus, and I was out of math classes to take by my sr year. I still did fine bc math is easy for me, but it wasn’t due to the great preparation my high school provided, and most kids in my situation would have immediately dropped that class and enrolled in pre-calc.

(09-20-2023 03:27 PM)schmolik Wrote:  I don't know if it's been said yet but Penn State (60) passed Pittsburgh (67) for #1 public in PA. It's good to be back on top!

I thought Pess St was a kind of public-private hybrid model.

(09-20-2023 04:42 PM)goofus Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 03:27 PM)schmolik Wrote:  I don't know if it's been said yet but Penn State (60) passed Pittsburgh (67) for #1 public in PA. It's good to be back on top!

Which just makes it more weird that PSU and Pitt don't play each other in football every year. 2 P5 schools in the same state with similar academic rankings. Sounds like it would be a popular game that would be good for the state, and just plainly a fun rivalry. What's stopping PSU from playing Pitt every year?

Penn St has Rutgers and Maryland every year, their schedule is already so tough.

(09-20-2023 08:16 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 02:47 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:42 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:12 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 11:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  Legacy admissions do NOT happen at the University of Texas. I also know they do not happen at the University of Georgia. I don't think they happen at many state schools anymore. Now pretty much every school will open slots for donors and people with connections. While you may be right about the private schools and wealthy area public schools, those students probably have much higher test scores. The 10th percentile at St. Mark's, Highland Park, St. John's and Memorial are probably better students than the Valedictorians at most Texas high schools.

I call BS on the legacy/preferential admissions piece, from my own personal experience. I had five generations of family go to UT before me, but did not grow up in Texas so I had no guaranteed route into the school. When I applied to UT, I had a state rep who was a friend of my grandfather write a recommendation letter for me. Voila, three weeks later I was accepted (ended up not going, as my profile would indicate). The DMN wrote an article about this exact phenomenon https://www.dallasnews.com/news/educatio...ert-says/.

Also, I'd comment difficult to separate cause and effect on this.. Is UT accepting students from St. John's because they're superior to other students or are they accepting students from St. John's because they know it is a signaling device that the student/parents are well-connected/influential (and very possibly went to UT)? I'm not trying to pick on St. John's... Its students certainly outperform the median Texas high school by a wide, wide margin..

You aren't making your point. Couldn't read the DMN article, but it was about pulling strings. You had a state representative write you a letter. You didn't get in because of the legacy of 5 generations. You got in because someone influential wrote a letter. I know plenty of people who went to UT who can't get their kids in.

I agree with the poster who said that 2.0 students are not getting into UT because their parent went there. There's no box to check on the application that makes someone an auto-admit. There isn't at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, or Rice either...

However, many of the top 6-15% students whose parents went to UT at a school like Highland Park, Memorial, Alamo Heights, etc. have the same type of connections that I had, which help get them into school. Not all, but many. If it's not legacy admissions, I guess you can call it "Good 'Ole Boy Network" admissions, which isn't very different in spirit.

After having spent 4 years as a kid in a bottom 25% high school, and now seeing my own kids spend years in a top 5% high school (both public’s), I’d say that there is a very real difference in the quality of student that each produces. Maybe the quality of instruction is comparable, though we had no AP classes and no access to them through a local college when I was in hs, but the quality of the actual graduates can vary widely from school to school in most cases. But not at highland Park, or Memorial, or Austin Westlake. The kids at the 15th or 20th percentile this year will be similar to the kids at that same rank from past years, and they’ll generally be far better-prepared for life at A&M or UT, and at least as successful as the average kid from a weaker school who had a much higher class rank.

Another thing I remember from my early years in college is how I was the only kid I knew who was an engineering major and didn’t take calculus in high school. All of my buddies, guys from other outfits, random people I knew from class, they’d ALL had calculus before. My high didn’t offer calculus, and I was out of math classes to take by my sr year. I still did fine bc math is easy for me, but it wasn’t due to the great preparation my high school provided, and most kids in my situation would have immediately dropped that class and enrolled in pre-calc.

Well my Houston HS didn't offer Calculus but other HSs in HISD did. HISD did the standard 9th-Algebra I, 10th-Geometry, 11th Algebra-2, 12th-Trig/Elementary Analysis (pre-calc). Some of the better HISD schools like Bellaire and Lamar did offer Calculus, but you had to double up on Math in 10th or 11th grade. My DFW HS used 8th-Algebra I for advanced students, 9th-Geometry, so I didn't take Calculus there or even honors math courses because I was a year behind in sequence.

I found College Calculus pretty easy and I took it in the Math Department instead of Business Calculus since I figured that would be too easy. But for other people I could see not having HS Calculus making it difficult. Because I was in a really good HS in 11th and 12th grade I felt really well prepared. Similarly my son went to a good private school and they do peer review of papers in college. He is just amazed how poorly most of those other students write. And my son was probably in the bottom half of his graduating class. But it was an outstanding school that prepared him well (even if he had a little too much fun in HS).

(09-20-2023 08:24 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 03:27 PM)schmolik Wrote:  I don't know if it's been said yet but Penn State (60) passed Pittsburgh (67) for #1 public in PA. It's good to be back on top!

I thought Pess St was a kind of public-private hybrid model.

Penn State, Pitt, Temple and Lincoln are state-related institutions who are part of the state-related Commonwealth System of Higher Education in PA.

The other higher ed system in PA is the Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education which operates the smaller, regional institutions in the state.

As it is, not too many states can match PA's "Big 3" public institutions; Temple, Pitt and Penn State.....

(09-20-2023 08:44 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 08:24 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 03:27 PM)schmolik Wrote:  I don't know if it's been said yet but Penn State (60) passed Pittsburgh (67) for #1 public in PA. It's good to be back on top!

I thought Pess St was a kind of public-private hybrid model.

Penn State, Pitt, Temple and Lincoln are state-related institutions who are part of the state-related Commonwealth System of Higher Education in PA.

The other higher ed system in PA is the Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education which operates the smaller, regional institutions in the state.

As it is, not too many states can match PA's "Big 3" public institutions; Temple, Pitt and Penn State.....

While just about any state funds their colleges & universities better than PASSHE.

(09-20-2023 07:54 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(09-19-2023 06:05 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-19-2023 04:56 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(09-18-2023 10:17 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-18-2023 03:33 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Also included in the main ranking page is tuition rates.

I believe Frank the Tank mentioned Michigan was more of a private school than Northwestern.

Well if you look at tuition...
USC: $68,237
Northwestern: $65,997
Michigan: $57,273 OOS

It's not that far off from them or from the Ivy League schools.

By contrast, other Big Ten public schools OOS...
Illinois: $36,068
Ohio State: $36,722
Penn State: $38,651
Michigan State: $41,958

MSU is in the same state as UM and there's over a $15K gap in OOS tuition! The gap between in state tuition between the two is only about $2K. But come on, do they really expect anyone outside of Michigan to pay that? How about people from Toledo right across the border? Give them a reason to not go to OSU!

tOSU is hardly comparable to Michigan in the classroom. Their peers are Cal, UCLA, Washington, perhaps UNC, Texas or GT in certain majors. They charge more tuition for OOS applicants bc they can.

OOS tuition:
Michigan: $57,273
Cal: $48,465
UCLA: $46,326
Washington: $41,997
North Carolina: $39,338
Texas: $41,070
Georgia Tech: $32,876 (now this is cheap!)

Still highway robbery for Michigan.

Michigan isn’t competing on price. They see themselves as legitimately on par with the Ivy League schools education-wise and price themselves accordingly to out-of-state students. (I always keep saying that Michigan is the snobbiest school in all of the power conferences as opposed to schools like Stanford or Northwestern.)

I think the main difference between Michigan and all of those other schools listed is that those other schools look at out-of-state students as a supplement to their in-state students or may even be capped on the number of OOS by law (such as UNC and now Cal and UCLA), whereas Michigan has long been a more nationalized school that has had a much larger OOS population.

When you ask whether anyone can be expected to pay what Michigan is charging, it’s pretty clear a LOT of people do and in fact fight for the privilege. On the East Coast or wealthy Chicago suburbs, Michigan really is looked at more like an alternative to an Ivy or Northwestern/Duke than it is an alternative to the other Big Ten publics. Michigan isn’t trying to get the people that want to go to Ohio State based on on price. They’re trying to go after the families that have saved up for an Ivy League-level tuition.

I guess one philosophy is that colleges and universities are like businesses and if you can get suckers, I mean customers to pay higher tuition prices then charge it. On the other hand, if you want the best students and you want to brag about having the best students, tuition should not hold back students. Some private schools like your Wilkes University likely has to charge a certain amount to stay afloat. We know the Michigan's, Northwestern's, Stanford's, and Ivy League schools have tons of money in endowments and can certainly afford to charge less. If lowering tuition causes more applicants and more talented student populations, I don't respect their higher tuition rates. They are then telling me they don't want the best students, they want the best rich students.

I’m not saying that I makes much sense to be paying $80,000-plus per year for an undergrad degree.

However, the top private schools and places like Michigan ARE getting the very best and most talented applicants. Full stop. It’s simple economics: there is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more demand for spots in those elite universities than there are spots available, so it’s about as clear of a supply and demand calculation as anything. Harvard could charge 2 or 3 times as much and still get the best applicants. The price isn’t dissuading demand because they are considered extremely valuable goods in the marketplace.

(09-20-2023 08:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 08:16 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 02:47 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:42 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:12 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  I call BS on the legacy/preferential admissions piece, from my own personal experience. I had five generations of family go to UT before me, but did not grow up in Texas so I had no guaranteed route into the school. When I applied to UT, I had a state rep who was a friend of my grandfather write a recommendation letter for me. Voila, three weeks later I was accepted (ended up not going, as my profile would indicate). The DMN wrote an article about this exact phenomenon https://www.dallasnews.com/news/educatio...ert-says/.

Also, I'd comment difficult to separate cause and effect on this.. Is UT accepting students from St. John's because they're superior to other students or are they accepting students from St. John's because they know it is a signaling device that the student/parents are well-connected/influential (and very possibly went to UT)? I'm not trying to pick on St. John's... Its students certainly outperform the median Texas high school by a wide, wide margin..

You aren't making your point. Couldn't read the DMN article, but it was about pulling strings. You had a state representative write you a letter. You didn't get in because of the legacy of 5 generations. You got in because someone influential wrote a letter. I know plenty of people who went to UT who can't get their kids in.

I agree with the poster who said that 2.0 students are not getting into UT because their parent went there. There's no box to check on the application that makes someone an auto-admit. There isn't at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, or Rice either...

However, many of the top 6-15% students whose parents went to UT at a school like Highland Park, Memorial, Alamo Heights, etc. have the same type of connections that I had, which help get them into school. Not all, but many. If it's not legacy admissions, I guess you can call it "Good 'Ole Boy Network" admissions, which isn't very different in spirit.

After having spent 4 years as a kid in a bottom 25% high school, and now seeing my own kids spend years in a top 5% high school (both public’s), I’d say that there is a very real difference in the quality of student that each produces. Maybe the quality of instruction is comparable, though we had no AP classes and no access to them through a local college when I was in hs, but the quality of the actual graduates can vary widely from school to school in most cases. But not at highland Park, or Memorial, or Austin Westlake. The kids at the 15th or 20th percentile this year will be similar to the kids at that same rank from past years, and they’ll generally be far better-prepared for life at A&M or UT, and at least as successful as the average kid from a weaker school who had a much higher class rank.

Another thing I remember from my early years in college is how I was the only kid I knew who was an engineering major and didn’t take calculus in high school. All of my buddies, guys from other outfits, random people I knew from class, they’d ALL had calculus before. My high didn’t offer calculus, and I was out of math classes to take by my sr year. I still did fine bc math is easy for me, but it wasn’t due to the great preparation my high school provided, and most kids in my situation would have immediately dropped that class and enrolled in pre-calc.

Well my Houston HS didn't offer Calculus but other HSs in HISD did. HISD did the standard 9th-Algebra I, 10th-Geometry, 11th Algebra-2, 12th-Trig/Elementary Analysis (pre-calc). Some of the better HISD schools like Bellaire and Lamar did offer Calculus, but you had to double up on Math in 10th or 11th grade. My DFW HS used 8th-Algebra I for advanced students, 9th-Geometry, so I didn't take Calculus there or even honors math courses because I was a year behind in sequence.

I found College Calculus pretty easy and I took it in the Math Department instead of Business Calculus since I figured that would be too easy. But for other people I could see not having HS Calculus making it difficult. Because I was in a really good HS in 11th and 12th grade I felt really well prepared. Similarly my son went to a good private school and they do peer review of papers in college. He is just amazed how poorly most of those other students write. And my son was probably in the bottom half of his graduating class. But it was an outstanding school that prepared him well (even if he had a little too much fun in HS).

My school did what yours did, with Trig/pre-calc in 12th, but I skipped a year in math somewhere early on. I remember that by 9th I was in with the sophomores in Geometry. It didn't so much hurt me as just leave me less well prepared than the kids from the more academically rigorous schools. Ironically, my old school is now pretty good as that area has experienced huge growth since I graduated. I should go back there for football games and talk some noise about how rough it was for us old timers back in the 80's...

(09-20-2023 08:44 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 08:24 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 03:27 PM)schmolik Wrote:  I don't know if it's been said yet but Penn State (60) passed Pittsburgh (67) for #1 public in PA. It's good to be back on top!

I thought Pess St was a kind of public-private hybrid model.

Penn State, Pitt, Temple and Lincoln are state-related institutions who are part of the state-related Commonwealth System of Higher Education in PA.

The other higher ed system in PA is the Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education which operates the smaller, regional institutions in the state.

As it is, not too many states can match PA's "Big 3" public institutions; Temple, Pitt and Penn State.....

I just googled "is penn state public or private" and this popped up:

Is Penn State a state school or private?
Pennsylvania State University - Wikipedia
Penn State is a "state-related" university, part of Pennsylvania's Commonwealth System of Higher Education. As such, although it receives funding from the Commonwealth and is connected to the state through its board of trustees, it is otherwise independent and not subject to the state's direct control.

So...kind of both. And really it's the best of both worlds. I'm sure that John Sharp at A&M would love to stop getting calls from State Officials when their kids get triggered by Pharacology lectures for example. That doesn't seem to be a problem for PSU, it's just "here, take this money then do what you want with it".

(09-21-2023 12:45 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 08:44 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 08:24 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 03:27 PM)schmolik Wrote:  I don't know if it's been said yet but Penn State (60) passed Pittsburgh (67) for #1 public in PA. It's good to be back on top!

I thought Pess St was a kind of public-private hybrid model.

Penn State, Pitt, Temple and Lincoln are state-related institutions who are part of the state-related Commonwealth System of Higher Education in PA.

The other higher ed system in PA is the Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education which operates the smaller, regional institutions in the state.

As it is, not too many states can match PA's "Big 3" public institutions; Temple, Pitt and Penn State.....

I just googled "is penn state public or private" and this popped up:

Is Penn State a state school or private?
Pennsylvania State University - Wikipedia
Penn State is a "state-related" university, part of Pennsylvania's Commonwealth System of Higher Education. As such, although it receives funding from the Commonwealth and is connected to the state through its board of trustees, it is otherwise independent and not subject to the state's direct control.

So...kind of both. And really it's the best of both worlds. I'm sure that John Sharp at A&M would love to stop getting calls from State Officials when their kids get triggered by Pharacology lectures for example. That doesn't seem to be a problem for PSU, it's just "here, take this money then do what you want with it".

Actually, it's not, and the reason I say it isn't is because I actually brought this topic up to a Pittsburgh fan. The Pittsburgh fan rightly pointed out that state-related universities are very corrupt at the top levels while the rank & file professors are absolutely jealous of the privileges that their PASSHE peers enjoy. Btw, take a wild guess how many branch campuses PSU has, bryanw.

(09-20-2023 08:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 08:16 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 02:47 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:42 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:12 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  I call BS on the legacy/preferential admissions piece, from my own personal experience. I had five generations of family go to UT before me, but did not grow up in Texas so I had no guaranteed route into the school. When I applied to UT, I had a state rep who was a friend of my grandfather write a recommendation letter for me. Voila, three weeks later I was accepted (ended up not going, as my profile would indicate). The DMN wrote an article about this exact phenomenon https://www.dallasnews.com/news/educatio...ert-says/.

Also, I'd comment difficult to separate cause and effect on this.. Is UT accepting students from St. John's because they're superior to other students or are they accepting students from St. John's because they know it is a signaling device that the student/parents are well-connected/influential (and very possibly went to UT)? I'm not trying to pick on St. John's... Its students certainly outperform the median Texas high school by a wide, wide margin..

You aren't making your point. Couldn't read the DMN article, but it was about pulling strings. You had a state representative write you a letter. You didn't get in because of the legacy of 5 generations. You got in because someone influential wrote a letter. I know plenty of people who went to UT who can't get their kids in.

I agree with the poster who said that 2.0 students are not getting into UT because their parent went there. There's no box to check on the application that makes someone an auto-admit. There isn't at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, or Rice either...

However, many of the top 6-15% students whose parents went to UT at a school like Highland Park, Memorial, Alamo Heights, etc. have the same type of connections that I had, which help get them into school. Not all, but many. If it's not legacy admissions, I guess you can call it "Good 'Ole Boy Network" admissions, which isn't very different in spirit.

After having spent 4 years as a kid in a bottom 25% high school, and now seeing my own kids spend years in a top 5% high school (both public’s), I’d say that there is a very real difference in the quality of student that each produces. Maybe the quality of instruction is comparable, though we had no AP classes and no access to them through a local college when I was in hs, but the quality of the actual graduates can vary widely from school to school in most cases. But not at highland Park, or Memorial, or Austin Westlake. The kids at the 15th or 20th percentile this year will be similar to the kids at that same rank from past years, and they’ll generally be far better-prepared for life at A&M or UT, and at least as successful as the average kid from a weaker school who had a much higher class rank.

Another thing I remember from my early years in college is how I was the only kid I knew who was an engineering major and didn’t take calculus in high school. All of my buddies, guys from other outfits, random people I knew from class, they’d ALL had calculus before. My high didn’t offer calculus, and I was out of math classes to take by my sr year. I still did fine bc math is easy for me, but it wasn’t due to the great preparation my high school provided, and most kids in my situation would have immediately dropped that class and enrolled in pre-calc.

Well my Houston HS didn't offer Calculus but other HSs in HISD did. HISD did the standard 9th-Algebra I, 10th-Geometry, 11th Algebra-2, 12th-Trig/Elementary Analysis (pre-calc). Some of the better HISD schools like Bellaire and Lamar did offer Calculus, but you had to double up on Math in 10th or 11th grade. My DFW HS used 8th-Algebra I for advanced students, 9th-Geometry, so I didn't take Calculus there or even honors math courses because I was a year behind in sequence.

I found College Calculus pretty easy and I took it in the Math Department instead of Business Calculus since I figured that would be too easy. But for other people I could see not having HS Calculus making it difficult. Because I was in a really good HS in 11th and 12th grade I felt really well prepared. Similarly my son went to a good private school and they do peer review of papers in college. He is just amazed how poorly most of those other students write. And my son was probably in the bottom half of his graduating class. But it was an outstanding school that prepared him well (even if he had a little too much fun in HS).

Things have really changed in HISD since I went to Westbury many, many, many years ago. All of my friends were in calculus senior year. We never had to double up on classes since we started that track in Jr High. My kids took calculus in HISD ten years ago. But that was at Carnegie Vanguard so I didn't know it was uncommon elsewhere.

(09-21-2023 12:42 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 08:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 08:16 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 02:47 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:42 PM)bullet Wrote:  You aren't making your point. Couldn't read the DMN article, but it was about pulling strings. You had a state representative write you a letter. You didn't get in because of the legacy of 5 generations. You got in because someone influential wrote a letter. I know plenty of people who went to UT who can't get their kids in.

I agree with the poster who said that 2.0 students are not getting into UT because their parent went there. There's no box to check on the application that makes someone an auto-admit. There isn't at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, or Rice either...

However, many of the top 6-15% students whose parents went to UT at a school like Highland Park, Memorial, Alamo Heights, etc. have the same type of connections that I had, which help get them into school. Not all, but many. If it's not legacy admissions, I guess you can call it "Good 'Ole Boy Network" admissions, which isn't very different in spirit.

After having spent 4 years as a kid in a bottom 25% high school, and now seeing my own kids spend years in a top 5% high school (both public’s), I’d say that there is a very real difference in the quality of student that each produces. Maybe the quality of instruction is comparable, though we had no AP classes and no access to them through a local college when I was in hs, but the quality of the actual graduates can vary widely from school to school in most cases. But not at highland Park, or Memorial, or Austin Westlake. The kids at the 15th or 20th percentile this year will be similar to the kids at that same rank from past years, and they’ll generally be far better-prepared for life at A&M or UT, and at least as successful as the average kid from a weaker school who had a much higher class rank.

Another thing I remember from my early years in college is how I was the only kid I knew who was an engineering major and didn’t take calculus in high school. All of my buddies, guys from other outfits, random people I knew from class, they’d ALL had calculus before. My high didn’t offer calculus, and I was out of math classes to take by my sr year. I still did fine bc math is easy for me, but it wasn’t due to the great preparation my high school provided, and most kids in my situation would have immediately dropped that class and enrolled in pre-calc.

Well my Houston HS didn't offer Calculus but other HSs in HISD did. HISD did the standard 9th-Algebra I, 10th-Geometry, 11th Algebra-2, 12th-Trig/Elementary Analysis (pre-calc). Some of the better HISD schools like Bellaire and Lamar did offer Calculus, but you had to double up on Math in 10th or 11th grade. My DFW HS used 8th-Algebra I for advanced students, 9th-Geometry, so I didn't take Calculus there or even honors math courses because I was a year behind in sequence.

I found College Calculus pretty easy and I took it in the Math Department instead of Business Calculus since I figured that would be too easy. But for other people I could see not having HS Calculus making it difficult. Because I was in a really good HS in 11th and 12th grade I felt really well prepared. Similarly my son went to a good private school and they do peer review of papers in college. He is just amazed how poorly most of those other students write. And my son was probably in the bottom half of his graduating class. But it was an outstanding school that prepared him well (even if he had a little too much fun in HS).

My school did what yours did, with Trig/pre-calc in 12th, but I skipped a year in math somewhere early on. I remember that by 9th I was in with the sophomores in Geometry. It didn't so much hurt me as just leave me less well prepared than the kids from the more academically rigorous schools. Ironically, my old school is now pretty good as that area has experienced huge growth since I graduated. I should go back there for football games and talk some noise about how rough it was for us old timers back in the 80's...

Like I said, Plano was a hick town that built a new HS just for juniors and seniors to keep their football team in one school and had just moved into the highest classification (4A at that time), and Frisco was a general store at a road crossing. Both have over 200,000 now and Plano has numerous Fortune 500 offices. At a class reunion in the 90s when a classmate talked about living in Frisco, I assumed she meant San Francisco! it didn't occur to me that someone would live in Frisco, TX. Plano was the northern edge of the suburbs when I was in HS.

(09-21-2023 08:35 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 08:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 08:16 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 02:47 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 12:42 PM)bullet Wrote:  You aren't making your point. Couldn't read the DMN article, but it was about pulling strings. You had a state representative write you a letter. You didn't get in because of the legacy of 5 generations. You got in because someone influential wrote a letter. I know plenty of people who went to UT who can't get their kids in.

I agree with the poster who said that 2.0 students are not getting into UT because their parent went there. There's no box to check on the application that makes someone an auto-admit. There isn't at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, or Rice either...

However, many of the top 6-15% students whose parents went to UT at a school like Highland Park, Memorial, Alamo Heights, etc. have the same type of connections that I had, which help get them into school. Not all, but many. If it's not legacy admissions, I guess you can call it "Good 'Ole Boy Network" admissions, which isn't very different in spirit.

After having spent 4 years as a kid in a bottom 25% high school, and now seeing my own kids spend years in a top 5% high school (both public’s), I’d say that there is a very real difference in the quality of student that each produces. Maybe the quality of instruction is comparable, though we had no AP classes and no access to them through a local college when I was in hs, but the quality of the actual graduates can vary widely from school to school in most cases. But not at highland Park, or Memorial, or Austin Westlake. The kids at the 15th or 20th percentile this year will be similar to the kids at that same rank from past years, and they’ll generally be far better-prepared for life at A&M or UT, and at least as successful as the average kid from a weaker school who had a much higher class rank.

Another thing I remember from my early years in college is how I was the only kid I knew who was an engineering major and didn’t take calculus in high school. All of my buddies, guys from other outfits, random people I knew from class, they’d ALL had calculus before. My high didn’t offer calculus, and I was out of math classes to take by my sr year. I still did fine bc math is easy for me, but it wasn’t due to the great preparation my high school provided, and most kids in my situation would have immediately dropped that class and enrolled in pre-calc.

Well my Houston HS didn't offer Calculus but other HSs in HISD did. HISD did the standard 9th-Algebra I, 10th-Geometry, 11th Algebra-2, 12th-Trig/Elementary Analysis (pre-calc). Some of the better HISD schools like Bellaire and Lamar did offer Calculus, but you had to double up on Math in 10th or 11th grade. My DFW HS used 8th-Algebra I for advanced students, 9th-Geometry, so I didn't take Calculus there or even honors math courses because I was a year behind in sequence.

I found College Calculus pretty easy and I took it in the Math Department instead of Business Calculus since I figured that would be too easy. But for other people I could see not having HS Calculus making it difficult. Because I was in a really good HS in 11th and 12th grade I felt really well prepared. Similarly my son went to a good private school and they do peer review of papers in college. He is just amazed how poorly most of those other students write. And my son was probably in the bottom half of his graduating class. But it was an outstanding school that prepared him well (even if he had a little too much fun in HS).

Things have really changed in HISD since I went to Westbury many, many, many years ago. All of my friends were in calculus senior year. We never had to double up on classes since we started that track in Jr High. My kids took calculus in HISD ten years ago. But that was at Carnegie Vanguard so I didn't know it was uncommon elsewhere.

I was in HS in the 70s. I knew the better schools had Calculus. But I presumed they had the same track at that time. We had some kids in Major Works (honors) Geometry in 10th grade who had gone to Johnston and Pershing (feeding Westbury and Bellaire/Lamar) in 9th grade. But yes, HISD has changed a lot.