Quote:Pope Francis has criticized the “backwardness” of certain conservative factions within the U.S. Catholic Church, arguing that they have substituted faith with ideology. He contended that a proper interpretation of Catholic teaching is open to change over time.

The Pope’s remarks come in the context of ongoing divisions in the U.S. Catholic community, which has been polarized between progressives and conservatives. His comments were made during a private gathering with Portuguese Jesuits in Lisbon on August 5. The Vatican-approved Jesuit journal La Civilta Cattolica subsequently published the conversation’s transcript.

In that meeting, a Portuguese Jesuit shared his experiences of facing criticism from Catholics, including some U.S. bishops, during a sabbatical year in the United States. These individuals criticized both Pope Francis’ decade-long papacy and contemporary Jesuits.

The Pope, an 86-year-old Argentine, validated these concerns by pointing out a “very strong, organized, reactionary attitude” in the U.S. Church, which he termed as “backward.” He cautioned that such a mindset results in a closed-off attitude, which he deemed mistaken.

“Doing this, you lose the true tradition and you turn to ideologies to have support. In other words, ideologies replace faith,” Pope Francis said.

He went on to assert, “The vision of the doctrine of the church as a monolith is wrong.” A backward perspective, according to Francis, severs the connection with the Church’s roots and leads to negative moral consequences.

“I want to remind these people that backwardness is useless, and they must understand that there’s a correct evolution in the understanding of questions of faith and morals,” indicating that doctrine can evolve and strengthen over time.

Pope Francis has previously noted the criticisms aimed at him from some corners of U.S. conservatism, even joking once that he considered it an “honor” to be the target of such attacks.

Some conservatives have taken issue with Pope Francis’ focus on social justice topics such as environmental protection and poverty. During his papacy, Pope Francis has consistently criticized income disparity, the global capitalist system, and its impact on both people and the planet.

He has lauded labor unions as “prophets” and labeled unchecked capitalism as the “dung of the devil,” positions that have unsettled some conservative Catholics in the United States. Additionally, Francis has advocated for policies that are more welcoming to refugees. His 2015 encyclical, Laudato Si’, urged for a heightened sense of responsibility towards the environment.

Link

I'm not Catholic so I've never really understood the role of the Pope when it comes to speaking for the Church.

What are the rules?
If the Pope says something then the subject is settled?
What if his statement contradicts the Scripture?
Is contradiction even possible, or does the Pope's statement essentially represent the "correct" interpretation of the Scripture?
What if the next Pope contradicts this Pope's statement? Does that mean one of the Popes was wrong?

(08-28-2023 05:26 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  

Quote:Pope Francis has criticized the “backwardness” of certain conservative factions within the U.S. Catholic Church, arguing that they have substituted faith with ideology. He contended that a proper interpretation of Catholic teaching is open to change over time.

The Pope’s remarks come in the context of ongoing divisions in the U.S. Catholic community, which has been polarized between progressives and conservatives. His comments were made during a private gathering with Portuguese Jesuits in Lisbon on August 5. The Vatican-approved Jesuit journal La Civilta Cattolica subsequently published the conversation’s transcript.

In that meeting, a Portuguese Jesuit shared his experiences of facing criticism from Catholics, including some U.S. bishops, during a sabbatical year in the United States. These individuals criticized both Pope Francis’ decade-long papacy and contemporary Jesuits.

The Pope, an 86-year-old Argentine, validated these concerns by pointing out a “very strong, organized, reactionary attitude” in the U.S. Church, which he termed as “backward.” He cautioned that such a mindset results in a closed-off attitude, which he deemed mistaken.

“Doing this, you lose the true tradition and you turn to ideologies to have support. In other words, ideologies replace faith,” Pope Francis said.

He went on to assert, “The vision of the doctrine of the church as a monolith is wrong.” A backward perspective, according to Francis, severs the connection with the Church’s roots and leads to negative moral consequences.

“I want to remind these people that backwardness is useless, and they must understand that there’s a correct evolution in the understanding of questions of faith and morals,” indicating that doctrine can evolve and strengthen over time.

Pope Francis has previously noted the criticisms aimed at him from some corners of U.S. conservatism, even joking once that he considered it an “honor” to be the target of such attacks.

Some conservatives have taken issue with Pope Francis’ focus on social justice topics such as environmental protection and poverty. During his papacy, Pope Francis has consistently criticized income disparity, the global capitalist system, and its impact on both people and the planet.

He has lauded labor unions as “prophets” and labeled unchecked capitalism as the “dung of the devil,” positions that have unsettled some conservative Catholics in the United States. Additionally, Francis has advocated for policies that are more welcoming to refugees. His 2015 encyclical, Laudato Si’, urged for a heightened sense of responsibility towards the environment.

Link

His religion is Marxism. I doubt he is really a Christian. But that's not my call.

Catholics should Protest

(08-28-2023 05:44 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  I'm not Catholic so I've never really understood the role of the Pope when it comes to speaking for the Church.

What are the rules?
If the Pope says something then the subject is settled?
What if his statement contradicts the Scripture?
Is contradiction even possible, or does the Pope's statement essentially represent the "correct" interpretation of the Scripture?
What if the next Pope contradicts this Pope's statement? Does that mean one of the Popes was wrong?

They have their own bible.

I’m Catholic and I and none of my friends and family care for this guy. Don’t like him at all actually.

(08-28-2023 07:06 PM)450bench Wrote:  I’m Catholic and I and none of my friends and family care for this guy. Don’t like him at all actually.

I'm with you. Evil has made it into the highest seat in the Vatican. There needs to be smoke seen from the Sistine Chapel soon.

(08-28-2023 08:26 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  

(08-28-2023 07:06 PM)450bench Wrote:  I’m Catholic and I and none of my friends and family care for this guy. Don’t like him at all actually.

I'm with you. Evil has made it into the highest seat in the Vatican. There needs to be smoke seen from the Sistine Chapel soon.

There is strong evidence in the Bible that either the beast or his false prophet will be a pope.

Not that Francis specifically is (though he is clearly an apostate), its more about the seat and authority of the throne in the Vatican.

(08-28-2023 05:44 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  I'm not Catholic so I've never really understood the role of the Pope when it comes to speaking for the Church.

What are the rules?
If the Pope says something then the subject is settled?
What if his statement contradicts the Scripture?
Is contradiction even possible, or does the Pope's statement essentially represent the "correct" interpretation of the Scripture?
What if the next Pope contradicts this Pope's statement? Does that mean one of the Popes was wrong?

He's not speaking from the authority of his seat on the teachings commanded by Jesus, he is speaking here as his own personal opinion, which he is granted free will to do, as are all of us. Papal Infallibility has only been exercised a couple of times in the 2,000+ year old history of the church. Unlike what many have been incorrectly told, the Pope CAN bluff in poker, he can tell a lie, he can have and express his personal opinions, and he can be mistaken, unless in the VERY RARE and counted upon one hand 2,000+ year history of the Church, he is speaking from his authority, granted by Jesus Himself and no other, on the direct tradition of the Church Jesus handed down (which here he is clearly not) and in his official (not personal) authority and position as the keeper of His church. None of those apply to these personal pastoral though they may be, teachings on the subject from Pope Francis. he is free to do so. He is subject to being incorrect on these matters, for they do not meet the very strict and almost never-invoked criteria for anything close to infallibility. But you will hear many screams of that kind of completely unbiblical nonsense and attack of Jesus' commanded Church on Earth, let at times by His chosen, but sometimes quite imperfect leaders, from those who don't even understand the concept or the commands of Jesus Himself in these matters, yet profess to, as does the Devil himself--who by the way does believe in both God and Jesus, but seeks, as many men do, to twist the words of God, for the Devil cannot create or command anything in the Universe without the consent of God Himself that he be allowed to do so. All of which have happened many, many times in the past 2,000+ years.

Peter, Jesus' chosen leader of His church, was a coward who openly denied Jesus three times for fear, yet Jesus made his head of His church here on earth anyway, and commanded that what he held bound on earth would also be bound in Heaven, and the gates of Hell should not prevail against His Church. Why one might ask, would God Himself, in the words and commands of His only Son, put such an imperfect coward in charge? If we trust that God is I AM WHO AM, we do not question the Mind of God, for fear of our own Pride against Him. We, these tiny specks on this infinitely small speck of dust in this vast Universe created by God Himself, exp3ect to know the Mind of God? Ridiculous! Judas, whom Jesus personally chose as one of his closest Apostles, who Jesus knew in advance would betray Him, who even as Judas, His chosen Apostle was in the Garden about to betray Him. God Himself, in the Person of His Son Jesus chose Judas, where perhaps many of us would never have.

Are we to question the Will of God? Pride is the first sin. The pride of those who would question God's own commanded church and its teachings (Jesus commanded go and teach all that I have taught you, he specifically did NOT say to go and read the book I wrote. He could have, he chose not to. Why? He didn't want man to again fall susceptible to enforcing the words without understanding and incorporating the Spirit of what was commanded. Only by the actions, works and testimony of His chosen disciples and their authority, the authority given by God Himself inn the words of His Son, could there be hope of the new covenant).

What of those who cannot read? Who are too ill or infirm or disabled? The mentally disabled? They are NOT damned to hell because they cannot read or comprehend Scripture, but many fools would act as if that was true. Nonsense! No where does it say such things in Scripture. Let them come to Me as Children spake Jesus Himself. Not as edumakacated fools from man's loser institutions of alleged 'higher learnings'. Why look where the woke and the anti-God Communists and So-called 'Socialists' themselves come from: from the bastions of man's pride, the far-gone, far-Leftist universities, overtaken and twisted by the Evil one away from Truth, and the God who Created the Universe and the Scientific Laws that govern it which man does not create or invent6, but merely stumbles upon to discover, at the behest of God Himself, in His own due time, jot ours? The modern-day Dr. Frankensteins and "Dr." Faucis and Wuhanites and more, who are damned to Hell from their pride and wickedness!

Are the weak, disabled, infirm, mentally unsophisticated to be considered damned through no free action of their own? Nonsense! Yet there are those who hold the Pride of man that they know better than God Himself, and start their own versions of his Church, as twisting truth instead of bowing to the Will of God, though they may not understand His ways or reasons or the Mind of God. For what man can truly und3erstand the Mind of God but Jesus Himself, who was both Man and God at the same time consubstantially, both fully and truly. Such is the Mystery of Faith. yet Jesus still called Judas "friend" (one of only two people in Scripture to be called "friend" by Jesus himself, was also chosen to be an Apostle. Why?

It seems Jesus' message, as repeated throughout Old Testament and New Testament Scripture, is that God can call whomever HE wishes, and the fact that His apostles do not pass muster among mere men is none of His concern, nor should it be the concern of the faithful, who are to follow God and His only Son, regardless of the personal failings of those HE may choose to put in charge of His church. At times, God seeks to instruct by allowing some of His chosen leaders to have personal failings. That is the business of God, whom He chooses and what His methods of instruction are. When a Pope strays from Church tradition, the very traditions Jesus instructed His Church to carry on and spread throughout mankind so that all may hear and decide for themselves to follow either God or mammon, using their free will to determine their own fate, we must only reinforce what God has commanded, not take the place of God, but allow Him final judgement over even some of His own leaders. Truth be told, there are far more good and faithful servants of God in His Church than the few rotten apples who occasionally find their moment. Without seemingly flawed Popes like Francis, humans have a more difficult time seeing the goodness and greatness of good Popes like John Paul II, Benedict Peter, Linus and others. None of those can turn the true faithful away from His Church He established by His Command here on earth. But the weak are easily turned and twisted even by some of the imperfect God chooses to lead for reasons never to be completely understood by man. An imperfect explanation from a mere bug of a speck living on a speck of rock in the far corner of the vast Universe.

Owl, there is a lot you are saying there I agree with. The problem is the pope has not authority given in the Bible. The entire basis of the claim is from one misapplied verse, and then ignoring the fact that the entire NT is in opposition to that assumed application Catholics make.

I often point to this as an example of how to not fall into false doctrine. If a doctrine is built upon one single verse or passage, and your application of it is in total contradiction to countless other passages or even the entire NT then you KNOW its a false doctrine.

There are countless proofs of this through the NT that the RCC just flat out ignores, Acts chapter 15 is one of man examples. Peter was not the head of the church, had no authority over the other elders and Apostles. He NEVER in the NT sat as "pope" with authority over the church anywhere in Acts or the rest of the NT. And if he was not a pope and did not sit in authority over the church, how do you then have a line of succession after him claiming an authority and position Peter himself never claimed or had?

In fact, starting in Acts we are told over and over again that Peter was an apostle to the Jews (circumcision) and Paul was chosen by Christ to be the apostle to the Gentiles. Peter was the first to take the gospel to the gentiles (Acts 8), but then Paul was called and hand chosen by Jesus to be the apostle of the Gentiles (Acts 9).

"But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles) Galatians 2:7-9

This is why the reformation and great awakening took place. After centuries of the scriptures being under lock and key, the Bible was translated into English in the KJB and massive numbers of believers began to read the NT and see clearly there was no pope or papacy or any authority for such in the NT, and in fact the whole idea is totally contradictory to the NT. Not to mention the massive issue of salvation by faith without works that the NT is so clear on. Not only is the papacy illegitimate in the NT, the sacraments and works to gain salvation, purgatory and all these other catholic doctrines are just totally unbiblical and many of them are in total opposition to the Word.

Of course this does not mean all Catholics are unsaved or not Christians. That is not the point here, many are genuine Christians. It just means there are serious doctrinal problems in the RCC and the pope is a man made seat of authority. And its a seat that is ideally situated for Satan to use with the beast and the false prophet when the times comes. And you could make a serious case that he already began to use it for such purposes in the dark ages when certain popes had millions of true believers tortured and killed for their rejection papal authority. All of which is a perfect foreshadowing of what could be to come.

(08-28-2023 05:44 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  I'm not Catholic so I've never really understood the role of the Pope when it comes to speaking for the Church.

What are the rules?
If the Pope says something then the subject is settled?
What if his statement contradicts the Scripture?
Is contradiction even possible, or does the Pope's statement essentially represent the "correct" interpretation of the Scripture?
What if the next Pope contradicts this Pope's statement? Does that mean one of the Popes was wrong?

A Pope is not infallible. No Catholic believes that. Stop fighting a strawman.

The Pope is only infallible if he says he is speaking infallibly on a matter of faith and morals, which has only happened twice in recorded history.

This is often confused because many things that Popes say are later confirmed as infallible by Church Councils. Councils have the authority to speak infallibly (such as the Council of Nicea, which mainline and Evangelical Protestants agree is infallible).


As for this interview? He said his own opinion in a small private setting, and it leaked.

He has also said in the past that "for me it’s an honor that Americans attack me."

He's a typical Global South leftist. Ironically he was much more popular in his home country (Argentina) before he became Pope because he's turned the Papacy in a more overtly political direction than anyone expected based on his record as a bishop.

(08-28-2023 09:10 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Francis… is clearly an apostate

It took me a long time to come to grips with that (Francis has been pope for 10.5 years now) but yes that is precisely the case.

(08-29-2023 05:52 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(08-28-2023 09:10 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Francis… is clearly an apostate

It took me a long time to come to grips with that (Francis has been pope for 10.5 years now) but yes that is precisely the case.

Agreed. I know some Catholics take that very personally but its not a reflection on any catholic.

The man himself is clearly an apostate parading as a Christian. And I've posted why using his own quotes many times.

Only an apostate who is not even a true believer can tell millions of atheists and billions of Muslims they do not need Jesus for salvation.

(08-28-2023 07:06 PM)450bench Wrote:  I’m Catholic and I and none of my friends and family care for this guy. Don’t like him at all actually.

Didn't like the choice when it was made. Dude had socialist written all over him. Catholic institutions will end up just like the Episcopalians under him.

(08-29-2023 04:58 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Councils have the authority to speak infallibly (such as the Council of Nicea, which mainline and Evangelical Protestants agree is infallible).

That is just factually wrong. You likely say this because you think the 66 books of the KJB came from the Council of Nicaea, they did not and that is easily demonstrated by the church fathers writings that predate Nicaea by multiple centuries.

There was actually no discussion of Biblical cannon at all because it was already well established.

They did correctly conclude that certain false gospels and doctrines did not belong or were not inspired but that things were pretty well agreed on long before those men were ever born and we have well documented sources that prove that. The council was not even meeting to decide on the books of the Bible of the nor did they, that is one of the most misunderstood and incorrect assumptions people make about them.

The books and the key doctrines were well established long before those councils, the issue is the gnostics were becoming widespread and of course the Arian issue so it because necessary to push back on some doctrinal attacks from them.

They also made some pretty obvious errors like Easter, a pagan holiday that has no connection whatsoever to the crucifixion and resurrection. Jesus was crucified at PASSOVER, and that is a key detail about the entire story of the Gospel. He is our PASSOVER lamb (reflecting and fulfilling the Exodus from Egypt at the first Passover), not our easter bunny.

Many protestants would agree they got some key issues correct but infallible? NOT A CHANCE.

(08-29-2023 06:04 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-29-2023 05:52 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(08-28-2023 09:10 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Francis… is clearly an apostate

It took me a long time to come to grips with that (Francis has been pope for 10.5 years now) but yes that is precisely the case.

Agreed. I know some Catholics take that very personally but its not a reflection on any catholic.

The man himself is clearly an apostate parading as a Christian. And I've posted why using his own quotes many times.

Only an apostate who is not even a true believer can tell millions of atheists and billions of Muslims they do not need Jesus for salvation.

That's when I sat all the way up and said huh?? I didn't like him when they installed him simply because I thought he was an ideologue cloaked in the robes of a holy man. When he made that statement I knew. Nothing he's said since has made me change my opinion unless it was for the worst.

I'm not a religious man but it's hard to shake one's upbringing so I tend to cling to the Catholic Church when I think about religion. The main difference being that now I'm able to separate religion from God as concepts.

(08-29-2023 06:22 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(08-29-2023 06:04 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-29-2023 05:52 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(08-28-2023 09:10 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Francis… is clearly an apostate

It took me a long time to come to grips with that (Francis has been pope for 10.5 years now) but yes that is precisely the case.

Agreed. I know some Catholics take that very personally but its not a reflection on any catholic.

The man himself is clearly an apostate parading as a Christian. And I've posted why using his own quotes many times.

Only an apostate who is not even a true believer can tell millions of atheists and billions of Muslims they do not need Jesus for salvation.

That's when I sat all the way up and said huh?? I didn't like him when they installed him simply because I thought he was an ideologue cloaked in the robes of a holy man. When he made that statement I knew. Nothing he's said since has made me change my opinion unless it was for the worst.

I'm not a religious man but it's hard to shake one's upbringing so I tend to cling to the Catholic Church when I think about religion. The main difference being that now I'm able to separate religion from God as concepts.

Jesus said "I am the Way, the truth and the life and there is no other path to the Father but through Me."

Francis said you don't even need Jesus.

If anything that is a pure antichrist statement.

(08-29-2023 06:31 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-29-2023 06:22 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(08-29-2023 06:04 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-29-2023 05:52 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(08-28-2023 09:10 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Francis… is clearly an apostate

It took me a long time to come to grips with that (Francis has been pope for 10.5 years now) but yes that is precisely the case.

Agreed. I know some Catholics take that very personally but its not a reflection on any catholic.

The man himself is clearly an apostate parading as a Christian. And I've posted why using his own quotes many times.

Only an apostate who is not even a true believer can tell millions of atheists and billions of Muslims they do not need Jesus for salvation.

That's when I sat all the way up and said huh?? I didn't like him when they installed him simply because I thought he was an ideologue cloaked in the robes of a holy man. When he made that statement I knew. Nothing he's said since has made me change my opinion unless it was for the worst.

I'm not a religious man but it's hard to shake one's upbringing so I tend to cling to the Catholic Church when I think about religion. The main difference being that now I'm able to separate religion from God as concepts.

Jesus said "I am the Way, the truth and the life and there is no other path to the Father but through Me."

Francis said you don't even need Jesus.

If anything that is a pure antichrist statement.

No arguments here.

Projection at it's finest.

If the pope can't tell you you're wrong, then who can?