(01-10-2023 03:59 PM)Claw Wrote:  Right. A Tiger's home game doesn't draw many out-of-towners IN OUR CURRENT CONFERENCE. It's does generate some restaurant business from in-towners. And it does bring in some hotel business, but not in those kind of numbers.

If you were in a P5 conference, you could expect 5 to 10K opposing fans to come in for a Tiger's game. The other assumption is we would draw more from the surrounding area. Those people will stay overnight as well. If you get 40,000 over the year, that's like adding another Liberty Bowl game's worth of revenue. If we could draw 100K visitors over the year, we would become the controlling event in town instead of the bowl and SHC.

I don't see how an OCS would be that antithetical to the city's interests if it will build support for the program, get us into a P5, and draw that much additional tourism. Ultimately, getting into the P5 is the goal, and we are not getting the OCS, but I don't feel that will hurt our chances much as there are many factors at play. Besides that, the Liberty Bowl isn't awful, and I personally have many fond memories of the place. Wouldn't you agree that it's an iconic Memphis fixture and has been for decades. With the upgrades planned, it could truly become something special, so there's that.

(01-10-2023 03:48 PM)Claw Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 03:33 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 03:02 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Obviously, it is in the state and the city's best interests to fund a municipally owned stadium, that the city will continue to own, especially when you factor in that it will guarantee the viability of both the LB and SHC. If 20,000 fans come in from out of town and spend a paltry $500 each, that is $20 million per year in revenue to the city.

Okay, so let's say the Liberty Bowl will attract 20,000 out of town visitors to the sum of $10,000,000 annually. For the sake of discussion, I won't dispute that figure, but how is that any different than 20,000 out of town visitors coming to the city to watch games in an OCS? They won't be staying on campus and will still require the services of the same private hotels and restaurants. Are you suggesting that $500 is to be collected by the city through city-owned concessions?

This is a good discussion. There were 52,000 at the bowl game this year. I can't prove it, but I would estimate 10,000 were locals and roughly 40,000 were out of towners. That's double your 20,000 estimate. Average of two nights in a hotel with average of say $150/person. That's 6 million in hotel revenue.

Quote: HOTEL taxes inMemphis
Tennessee state tax is 7%.
Memphis local tax is 2.25%
Memphis lodging tax is 6%.
Total tax for a hotel room in Memphis is 15.25%.

There is 915,000 dollars in tax revenue. 495,000 in Memphis taxes.

In addition you get sales taxes on all food. Gas taxes. Rental car taxes.

Plus the city gets parking and concession revenue from game day sales.

It's a lot of money for the city. It's a lot of money for the hotels. It's a lot of money for the restaurants.

I suspect my numbers are too low. A lot of people spent more than two nights here, and some of them paid more than that for their rooms per person.

It's a lot of money.

Would the city not get that same hotel, restaurant, tax money if the bowl game was in a new OCS (less some parking and concessions)?
Which leads us back to, what is the conspiratorial motivation to keep us down?

(01-10-2023 03:48 PM)Claw Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 03:33 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 03:02 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Obviously, it is in the state and the city's best interests to fund a municipally owned stadium, that the city will continue to own, especially when you factor in that it will guarantee the viability of both the LB and SHC. If 20,000 fans come in from out of town and spend a paltry $500 each, that is $20 million per year in revenue to the city.

Okay, so let's say the Liberty Bowl will attract 20,000 out of town visitors to the sum of $10,000,000 annually. For the sake of discussion, I won't dispute that figure, but how is that any different than 20,000 out of town visitors coming to the city to watch games in an OCS? They won't be staying on campus and will still require the services of the same private hotels and restaurants. Are you suggesting that $500 is to be collected by the city through city-owned concessions?

This is a good discussion. There were 52,000 at the bowl game this year. I can't prove it, but I would estimate 10,000 were locals and roughly 40,000 were out of towners. That's double your 20,000 estimate. Average of two nights in a hotel with average of say $150/person. That's 6 million in hotel revenue.

Quote: HOTEL taxes inMemphis
Tennessee state tax is 7%.
Memphis local tax is 2.25%
Memphis lodging tax is 6%.
Total tax for a hotel room in Memphis is 15.25%.

There is 915,000 dollars in tax revenue. 495,000 in Memphis taxes.

In addition you get sales taxes on all food. Gas taxes. Rental car taxes.

Plus the city gets parking and concession revenue from game day sales.

It's a lot of money for the city. It's a lot of money for the hotels. It's a lot of money for the restaurants.

I suspect my numbers are too low. A lot of people spent more than two nights here, and some of them paid more than that for their rooms per person.

It's a lot of money.

Most Arkansas fans stayed home & came over on game day… KU probably had 20k fans at the game with most staying at least 1 night.

(01-10-2023 03:59 PM)Claw Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 03:52 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 03:48 PM)Claw Wrote:  This is a good discussion. There were 52,000 at the bowl game this year. I can't prove it, but I would estimate 10,000 were locals and roughly 40,000 were out of towners. That's double your 20,000 estimate. Average of two nights in a hotel with average of say $150/person. That's 6 million in hotel revenue.

Quote: HOTEL taxes inMemphis
Tennessee state tax is 7%.
Memphis local tax is 2.25%
Memphis lodging tax is 6%.
Total tax for a hotel room in Memphis is 15.25%.

There is 915,000 dollars in tax revenue. 495,000 in Memphis taxes.

In addition you get sales taxes on all food. Gas taxes. Rental car taxes.

Plus the city gets parking and concession revenue from game day sales.

It's a lot of money for the city. It's a lot of money for the hotels. It's a lot of money for the restaurants.

I suspect my numbers are too low. A lot of people spent more than two nights here, and some of them paid more than that for their rooms per person.

It's a lot of money.

So the number quoted isn't the figure for visitors to Memphis home games, but specifically for the bowl game and perhaps the SHC? If that was the implication, it makes sense, but perhaps a bit low a you suggest.

Right. A Tiger's home game doesn't draw many out-of-towners IN OUR CURRENT CONFERENCE. It's does generate some restaurant business from in-towners. And it does bring in some hotel business, but not in those kind of numbers.

If you were in a P5 conference, you could expect 5 to 10K opposing fans to come in for a Tiger's game. The other assumption is we would draw more from the surrounding area. Those people will stay overnight as well. If you get 40,000 over the year, that's like adding another Liberty Bowl game's worth of revenue. If we could draw 100K visitors over the year, we would become the controlling event in town instead of the bowl and SHC.

There is ZERO doubt that an OCS would do much more for the good of the city than the LB renovations. There is also ZERO doubt that a lot of the city's politicians don't give a **** about the school.

(01-10-2023 04:05 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 03:59 PM)Claw Wrote:  Right. A Tiger's home game doesn't draw many out-of-towners IN OUR CURRENT CONFERENCE. It's does generate some restaurant business from in-towners. And it does bring in some hotel business, but not in those kind of numbers.

If you were in a P5 conference, you could expect 5 to 10K opposing fans to come in for a Tiger's game. The other assumption is we would draw more from the surrounding area. Those people will stay overnight as well. If you get 40,000 over the year, that's like adding another Liberty Bowl game's worth of revenue. If we could draw 100K visitors over the year, we would become the controlling event in town instead of the bowl and SHC.

I don't see how an OCS would be that antithetical to the city's interests if it will build support for the program, get us into a P5, and draw that much additional tourism. Ultimately, getting into the P5 is the goal, and we are not getting the OCS, but I don't feel that will hurt our chances much as there are many factors at play. Besides that, the Liberty Bowl isn't awful, and I personally have many fond memories of the place. Wouldn't you agree that it's an iconic Memphis fixture and has been for decades. With the upgrades planned, it could truly become something special, so there's that.

A smaller stadium in general would cut their revenue. They basically sold out the Liberty Bowl at 52,000. A 35,000 seat OCS would be a real income loss if they had to use it. The city also gets the concessions, parking, etc from those games, and the university pays them rent for each game we play. In addition, all the tax-paying hotels and restaurants would lose income. All of those people make campaign contributions too.

The irony is a P5 Memphis might be filling a 50,000 seat stadium after a few years, but we may not ever get to P5 in part because our stadium is too big now.

(01-10-2023 04:07 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  Would the city not get that same hotel, restaurant, tax money if the bowl game was in a new OCS (less some parking and concessions)?
Which leads us back to, what is the conspiratorial motivation to keep us down?

I think you're on point about there being zero evidence for a conspiracy. In fact, if what Mensa suggests is true, the OCS would be a "do not stop at GO" pass to a P5 which would dramatically increase visitors to the city. If that's the case, how is it not in the best interest of any entity that stands to generate significant tax revenue as a result?

(01-10-2023 04:11 PM)Claw Wrote:  A smaller stadium in general would cut their revenue. They basically sold out the Liberty Bowl at 52,000. A 35,000 seat OCS would be a real income loss if they had to use it. The city also gets the concessions, parking, etc from those games, and the university pays them rent for each game we play. In addition, all the tax-paying hotels and restaurants would lose income. All of those people make campaign contributions too.

The irony is a P5 Memphis might be filling a 50,000 seat stadium after a few years, but we may not ever get to P5 in part because our stadium is too big now.

Why would they have to give up the Liberty Bowl? You have the bowl game, you have the SHC, and you have the Showboats playing. Make some modifications so that it can host other events, and it is still viable.

(01-10-2023 04:16 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:11 PM)Claw Wrote:  A smaller stadium in general would cut their revenue. They basically sold out the Liberty Bowl at 52,000. A 35,000 seat OCS would be a real income loss if they had to use it. The city also gets the concessions, parking, etc from those games, and the university pays them rent for each game we play. In addition, all the tax-paying hotels and restaurants would lose income. All of those people make campaign contributions too.

The irony is a P5 Memphis might be filling a 50,000 seat stadium after a few years, but we may not ever get to P5 in part because our stadium is too big now.

Why would they have to give up the Liberty Bowl? You have the bowl game, you have the SHC, and you have the Showboats playing. Make some modifications so that it can host other events, and it is still viable.

I agree. Apparently they don't.

(01-10-2023 04:07 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 03:48 PM)Claw Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 03:33 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 03:02 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Obviously, it is in the state and the city's best interests to fund a municipally owned stadium, that the city will continue to own, especially when you factor in that it will guarantee the viability of both the LB and SHC. If 20,000 fans come in from out of town and spend a paltry $500 each, that is $20 million per year in revenue to the city.

Okay, so let's say the Liberty Bowl will attract 20,000 out of town visitors to the sum of $10,000,000 annually. For the sake of discussion, I won't dispute that figure, but how is that any different than 20,000 out of town visitors coming to the city to watch games in an OCS? They won't be staying on campus and will still require the services of the same private hotels and restaurants. Are you suggesting that $500 is to be collected by the city through city-owned concessions?

This is a good discussion. There were 52,000 at the bowl game this year. I can't prove it, but I would estimate 10,000 were locals and roughly 40,000 were out of towners. That's double your 20,000 estimate. Average of two nights in a hotel with average of say $150/person. That's 6 million in hotel revenue.

Quote: HOTEL taxes inMemphis
Tennessee state tax is 7%.
Memphis local tax is 2.25%
Memphis lodging tax is 6%.
Total tax for a hotel room in Memphis is 15.25%.

There is 915,000 dollars in tax revenue. 495,000 in Memphis taxes.

In addition you get sales taxes on all food. Gas taxes. Rental car taxes.

Plus the city gets parking and concession revenue from game day sales.

It's a lot of money for the city. It's a lot of money for the hotels. It's a lot of money for the restaurants.

I suspect my numbers are too low. A lot of people spent more than two nights here, and some of them paid more than that for their rooms per person.

It's a lot of money.

Would the city not get that same hotel, restaurant, tax money if the bowl game was in a new OCS (less some parking and concessions)?
Which leads us back to, what is the conspiratorial motivation to keep us down?

The issue would be capacity. There is no point building an OCS if there are more than 44,000 seats max. There would a reasonable chance that 44,000 wouldn't be enough for the LB or SHC, even though I'm sure the SHC has less than that actual attendance most years.

IF you could do 44,000 with 8,000 temporary bleacher seats, I suppose that would work, but who has ever done that?

(01-10-2023 04:16 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:11 PM)Claw Wrote:  A smaller stadium in general would cut their revenue. They basically sold out the Liberty Bowl at 52,000. A 35,000 seat OCS would be a real income loss if they had to use it. The city also gets the concessions, parking, etc from those games, and the university pays them rent for each game we play. In addition, all the tax-paying hotels and restaurants would lose income. All of those people make campaign contributions too.

The irony is a P5 Memphis might be filling a 50,000 seat stadium after a few years, but we may not ever get to P5 in part because our stadium is too big now.

Why would they have to give up the Liberty Bowl? You have the bowl game, you have the SHC, and you have the Showboats playing. Make some modifications so that it can host other events, and it is still viable.

Orlando still hosts the Citrus Bowl game in the Citrus Bowl, even though UCF long abandoned it in favor of an OCS & P5 invite.

(01-10-2023 04:23 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:16 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:11 PM)Claw Wrote:  A smaller stadium in general would cut their revenue. They basically sold out the Liberty Bowl at 52,000. A 35,000 seat OCS would be a real income loss if they had to use it. The city also gets the concessions, parking, etc from those games, and the university pays them rent for each game we play. In addition, all the tax-paying hotels and restaurants would lose income. All of those people make campaign contributions too.

The irony is a P5 Memphis might be filling a 50,000 seat stadium after a few years, but we may not ever get to P5 in part because our stadium is too big now.

Why would they have to give up the Liberty Bowl? You have the bowl game, you have the SHC, and you have the Showboats playing. Make some modifications so that it can host other events, and it is still viable.

Orlando still hosts the Citrus Bowl game in the Citrus Bowl, even though UCF long abandoned it in favor of an OCS & P5 invite.

Unfortunately, that argument won't work. They did a $207 million renovation in 2014, and another $60 million in 2021. Bummer.

(01-10-2023 04:23 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:16 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:11 PM)Claw Wrote:  A smaller stadium in general would cut their revenue. They basically sold out the Liberty Bowl at 52,000. A 35,000 seat OCS would be a real income loss if they had to use it. The city also gets the concessions, parking, etc from those games, and the university pays them rent for each game we play. In addition, all the tax-paying hotels and restaurants would lose income. All of those people make campaign contributions too.

The irony is a P5 Memphis might be filling a 50,000 seat stadium after a few years, but we may not ever get to P5 in part because our stadium is too big now.

Why would they have to give up the Liberty Bowl? You have the bowl game, you have the SHC, and you have the Showboats playing. Make some modifications so that it can host other events, and it is still viable.

Orlando still hosts the Citrus Bowl game in the Citrus Bowl, even though UCF long abandoned it in favor of an OCS & P5 invite.

UCF in P5. My mind is still blown. They basically didn't have a football a football program until they hired George O'Leary IN EARLY 2000s and got into Div 1, joining MAC. In P5 IN LESS THAN 20 years. SONOFA&#$%$

(01-10-2023 04:27 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:23 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:16 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:11 PM)Claw Wrote:  A smaller stadium in general would cut their revenue. They basically sold out the Liberty Bowl at 52,000. A 35,000 seat OCS would be a real income loss if they had to use it. The city also gets the concessions, parking, etc from those games, and the university pays them rent for each game we play. In addition, all the tax-paying hotels and restaurants would lose income. All of those people make campaign contributions too.

The irony is a P5 Memphis might be filling a 50,000 seat stadium after a few years, but we may not ever get to P5 in part because our stadium is too big now.

Why would they have to give up the Liberty Bowl? You have the bowl game, you have the SHC, and you have the Showboats playing. Make some modifications so that it can host other events, and it is still viable.

Orlando still hosts the Citrus Bowl game in the Citrus Bowl, even though UCF long abandoned it in favor of an OCS & P5 invite.

Unfortunately, that argument won't work. They did a $207 million renovation in 2014, and another $60 million in 2021. Bummer.

The city can do whatever it wants to do with the Liberty Bowl. They can choose to invest as did Orlando, or they can leave it as is. It should not involve us.

(01-10-2023 03:44 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 03:37 PM)Alanda Wrote:  I won't say it's an absolute necessity, but compared to all the other P5s Memphis is the only one in this situation. I can't remember who asked it (I want to say it was Marc Mensa, but I could be wrong), about how the other P5s looked in comparison to Memphis in having both football and men's basketball playing in municipality owned facilities (and maybe off campus as well). From what I found at the time, NC State was the only one that came close to looking like Memphis. However despite their football stadium being considered off campus (3 miles from the main campus) they built it on land they owned and they own the stadium.

Aesthetically, having an OCS could be a nice thing to have. If it will improve donations to the program, even better. Still, I don't believe it will be a requirement to get into a P5. That is the goal here, am I wrong? To elevate to a P5 conference so that we can share in the revenue and compete on a level playing field?

The Liberty Bowl is certainly not on campus, but at only two miles away, it is closer than many OCSs at P5 schools. Since we're not going to get an OCS, it is pointless to argue about it. What we should all be doing is donating to the NIL funds as that's going to make a big difference to our recruiting and retention efforts.

I think the point is if you are looking at schools to add to your P5 conference, our stadium/arena look doesn't resemble that of the others already there. I can't say it's a dealbreaker, but it's not a good look. And I can definitely say the LB is not closer than many OCSs at P5. If it's the same or further than the Liberty Bowl then it's not an OCS. Here is an article I found at the time that helped my research. It showed all the FBS schools that played at a football stadium a mile or further away from the campus. They listed only 23 and not all of them are P5.

https://herosports.com/teams-playing-hom...mpus-aiai/

What I found at the time was that NC State is the only one that played both basketball and football off campus like Memphis. But like I mentioned before they still own the football stadium.

(01-10-2023 04:23 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Orlando still hosts the Citrus Bowl game in the Citrus Bowl, even though UCF long abandoned it in favor of an OCS & P5 invite.

You're dogmatic to a fault. An OCS would certainly make many people happy, but it isn't the only path to elevating the program.

(01-10-2023 04:33 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:27 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:23 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:16 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:11 PM)Claw Wrote:  A smaller stadium in general would cut their revenue. They basically sold out the Liberty Bowl at 52,000. A 35,000 seat OCS would be a real income loss if they had to use it. The city also gets the concessions, parking, etc from those games, and the university pays them rent for each game we play. In addition, all the tax-paying hotels and restaurants would lose income. All of those people make campaign contributions too.

The irony is a P5 Memphis might be filling a 50,000 seat stadium after a few years, but we may not ever get to P5 in part because our stadium is too big now.

Why would they have to give up the Liberty Bowl? You have the bowl game, you have the SHC, and you have the Showboats playing. Make some modifications so that it can host other events, and it is still viable.

Orlando still hosts the Citrus Bowl game in the Citrus Bowl, even though UCF long abandoned it in favor of an OCS & P5 invite.

Unfortunately, that argument won't work. They did a $207 million renovation in 2014, and another $60 million in 2021. Bummer.

[b]The city can do whatever it wants to do with the Liberty Bowl. They can choose to invest as did Orlando, or they can leave it as is. It should not involve us.[/b]

It is a very small step to admitting that is exactly what is happening right now.

The city can do whatever it wants.


Come with me.

Take that step.

(01-10-2023 04:43 PM)Alanda Wrote:  I think the point is if you are looking at schools to add to your P5 conference, our stadium/arena look doesn't resemble that of the others already there. I can't say it's a dealbreaker, but it's not a good look. And I can definitely say the LB is not closer than many OCSs at P5. If it's the same or further than the Liberty Bowl then it's not an OCS. Here is an article I found at the time that helped my research. It showed all the FBS schools that played at a football stadium a mile or further away from the campus. They listed only 23 and not all of them are P5.

https://herosports.com/teams-playing-hom...mpus-aiai/

What I found at the time was that NC State is the only one that played both basketball and football off campus like Memphis. But like I mentioned before they still own the football stadium.

You're misunderstanding. Many campuses are very large. What is your point of reference? Just because it's an OCS doesn't mean that the stadium proper won't be 2 miles or more from where you have to park, for example. Your list only shows the FBS programs that have an off-campus stadium and the distance to said stadium from the extremities of the campus.

What I was saying is that even though a stadium may be on the campus, the distance from the Memphis campus to the Liberty Bowl is as close or closer than many programs that do have an OCS in relation to how far it will be from where your vehicle is. On campus parking is often very limited. Many schools will require private parking of some kind, off campus. At least the Liberty Bowl has plenty of parking at the venue.

(01-10-2023 04:46 PM)Claw Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:33 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:27 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:23 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:16 PM)msu35 Wrote:  Why would they have to give up the Liberty Bowl? You have the bowl game, you have the SHC, and you have the Showboats playing. Make some modifications so that it can host other events, and it is still viable.

Orlando still hosts the Citrus Bowl game in the Citrus Bowl, even though UCF long abandoned it in favor of an OCS & P5 invite.

Unfortunately, that argument won't work. They did a $207 million renovation in 2014, and another $60 million in 2021. Bummer.

[b]The city can do whatever it wants to do with the Liberty Bowl. They can choose to invest as did Orlando, or they can leave it as is. It should not involve us.[/b]

It is a very small step to admitting that is exactly what is happening right now.

The city can do whatever it wants.


Come with me.

Take that step.

Take that step? Everyone knew that a thousand of your posts ago. Everyone knew that 40 years ago. This is you educating us?

(01-10-2023 04:46 PM)Claw Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:33 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:27 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:23 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 04:16 PM)msu35 Wrote:  Why would they have to give up the Liberty Bowl? You have the bowl game, you have the SHC, and you have the Showboats playing. Make some modifications so that it can host other events, and it is still viable.

Orlando still hosts the Citrus Bowl game in the Citrus Bowl, even though UCF long abandoned it in favor of an OCS & P5 invite.

Unfortunately, that argument won't work. They did a $207 million renovation in 2014, and another $60 million in 2021. Bummer.

[b]The city can do whatever it wants to do with the Liberty Bowl. They can choose to invest as did Orlando, or they can leave it as is. It should not involve us.[/b]

It is a very small step to admitting that is exactly what is happening right now.

The city can do whatever it wants.


Come with me.

Take that step.

The university does not need the city to make its case to the state for an OCS. Hell, the speaker of the state house just said they were committed to helping the UofM get into a P5 conference. Why does that require the city?

As for taking the step…
I took it with The Pyramid and the school was ultimately suckered into offering up the 20 mil provided by the state to build its oncampus facility and giving that money to the city for what is now a Bass Pro Shop. We took that step in ‘65 with the Liberty Bowl & watched every one of our rivals move on to greener pastures. Sorry, but I will not take that step until I’m forced to step foot into that remodeled city-owned/managed white elephant.

(01-10-2023 05:06 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  As for taking the step…
I took it with The Pyramid and the school was ultimately suckered into offering up the 20 mil provided by the state to build its oncampus facility and giving that money to the city for what is now a Bass Pro Shop. We took that step in ‘65 with the Liberty Bowl & watched every one of our rivals move on to greener pastures. Sorry, but I will not take that step until I’m forced to step foot into that remodeled city-owned/managed white elephant.

Get those feet ready, because you'll be taking that step. For the record, it's a pretty nice Bass Pro Shop too, as far as Bass Pro Shops go.