This board talks so much about the Power 2 conferences, but when it comes to football we all have to admit that it's really the SEC and everyone else. We know the stats about how many championships and head to head records, and I don't think there's a legitimate argument to me made that they are anywhere near equal footing.

Considering that football drives the bus -- and that the SEC just added two of the top six brands in college football -- how can the Big Ten ever start competing on the field? And how long will it be before even the people in Big Ten country will come to admit that they are playing second fiddle?

Meanwhile, the SEC's footprint is largely comprised of states that are growing in population while the rust belt has stagnated over the last few decades. High school football continues to thrive in the South while its popularity wanes in the midwest and northeast.

Adding USC was a bold move, but with the exception of Pete Carrol's nine years in LA, the Trojans have been a solid-but-unspectacular by SEC standards since John Robinson left LA in 1982. Think Auburn.

With all of that said, are we destined to a Power 1 when the ACC breaks apart in 2036?

(09-30-2022 10:05 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  ....
Considering that football drives the bus -- and that the SEC just added two of the top six brands in college football -- how can the Big Ten ever start competing on the field? And how long will it be before even the people in Big Ten country will come to admit that they are playing second fiddle?
....

That's why the Big Ten intends to poach schools from the ACC. It needs members who can beat the SEC.

(09-30-2022 10:28 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

Yeah, I can't deny that I'm just looking for some entertainment on a Friday morning...

I think the Big Ten can get 2 teams in the CFP this season.

It might be 2 SEC teams vs 2 Big Ten teams.

(09-30-2022 10:05 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  This board talks so much about the Power 2 conferences, but when it comes to football we all have to admit that it's really the SEC and everyone else. We know the stats about how many championships and head to head records, and I don't think there's a legitimate argument to me made that they are anywhere near equal footing.

Considering that football drives the bus -- and that the SEC just added two of the top six brands in college football -- how can the Big Ten ever start competing on the field? And how long will it be before even the people in Big Ten country will come to admit that they are playing second fiddle?

Meanwhile, the SEC's footprint is largely comprised of states that are growing in population while the rust belt has stagnated over the last few decades. High school football continues to thrive in the South while its popularity wanes in the midwest and northeast.

Adding USC was a bold move, but with the exception of Pete Carrol's nine years in LA, the Trojans have been a solid-but-unspectacular by SEC standards since John Robinson left LA in 1982. Think Auburn.

With all of that said, are we destined to a Power 1 when the ACC breaks apart in 2036?

Hire Nick Saban, Dabo Swinney and Kirby Smart and the top of the Big 10 would catch them.

Honestly, "P2," to me, is far less about quality of play on the field/court and far more about the brands, viewership, distribution, and $$$$$.

(09-30-2022 10:34 AM)ArmoredUpKnight Wrote:  I think the Big Ten can get 2 teams in the CFP this season.

It might be 2 SEC teams vs 2 Big Ten teams.

I sure hope not. My gosh, we need an expanded playoff *now.*

It's crazy to me that the NFL can get 7-9 or 8-9 division champs in the playoffs but potentially just two of ten conference champions in CFB's playoffs.

Short answer is no, not very likely. Some of the built in advantages that the SEC enjoys are not going away (geography, recruiting, lack of pro competition, etc). I think the gap can be closed a bit, but actually catching them? No, I don't think so. The SEC has much more depth with 7 teams in the new SEC having won national championships since 2000 versus just 2 for the new Big10. The SEC is just so much deeper. In some years the 4th or 5th best SEC program would challenge for #1-2 in the Big10, while the opposite is rarely true. I don't see that substantially changing, though I expect the gap to close a bit as power/recruiting consolidates between the P2.

(09-30-2022 11:02 AM)forphase1 Wrote:  Short answer is no, not very likely. Some of the built in advantages that the SEC enjoys are not going away (geography, recruiting, lack of pro competition, etc). I think the gap can be closed a bit, but actually catching them? No, I don't think so. The SEC has much more depth with 7 teams in the new SEC having won national championships since 2000 versus just 2 for the new Big10. The SEC is just so much deeper. In some years the 4th or 5th best SEC program would challenge for #1-2 in the Big10, while the opposite is rarely true. I don't see that substantially changing, though I expect the gap to close a bit as power/recruiting consolidates between the P2.

There are built in advantages, but there are also advantages that aren't built in.

The SEC has been vastly outspending the Big 10 on coaches and assistant coaches in football, especially the middle schools in each conference.

(09-30-2022 10:42 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Honestly, "P2," to me, is far less about quality of play on the field/court and far more about the brands, viewership, distribution, and $$$$$.

You are fully correct, MinR.

Also, you have to look at how narrow the margin of error of an MNC is. In 2006 there was talk of an Ohio St. Michigan rematch. Florida could have been left out. In 2007, LSU was the only one to ever to get in with 2 losses. They needed Missouri and West Virginia to lose on the last weekend. In 2008, the Big 12 picked Big game Bob and Oklahoma in a 3 way tie instead of Texas (after Texas Tech beat Texas on a TD with 1 second left). Both Texas and Florida in the BCS game beat OU by 10. 2009 and Texas lost its QB in the 2nd series with a 3-0 lead and the ball inside the 2 and was left with an unplayed freshmen who turned the ball over 5 times. In 2010 Alabama had a big halftime lead and was about to score on a turnover. The player got sloppy with the ball and the Auburn offensive player stripped it and causing a touchback. Auburn came back and won at the end. Had they lost it would have been TCU vs. Oregon for the BCS title. In 2011 they should have put Oklahoma St. vs. LSU instead of Alabama.

Those first 6 SEC titles might not have happened with a slight bounce of the ball. And those 6 helped recruiting and lead to future titles.

The B1G has already proven that you don't have to have the best product to make the most money.
In many regards the B1G has passed the SEC by.

So I guess it depends on your criteria to be able to answer the question posed by the OP.

First, regarding the "P2" designation, I think it's accurate, because as others have said, "Power" is IMO about money, respect, brand value and prestige, and the B1G is right there with the SEC on those metrics. Winning doesn't matter much there.

But regarding winning on the field, I think the B1G can be the equal of the SEC. It has many times in the past, it's only the last 15 or so years that we saw real separation.

IMO, the SEC had the same advantages in the 1990s as it has now, so I don't think there is anything permanent about SEC dominance.

It's like when FSU finished in the top 4 for 14 straight years, from 1987 - 2000. It seemed like that would go on forever, but IIRC, in the 21 years since, FSU has finished in the top 4 just one time, when they won the 2013 title. So things change.

We'll see.

I'll bite, sure.

No, because the bottom of the Big 10 has way too many disadvantages, while the bottom of the SEC has managed to build itself up to being competitive. Previous cellar dwellers like the Mississippi schools, South Carolina, and Kentucky have built themselves up into respectable programs, leaving only Vanderbilt and Missouri bringing up the rear. They still have rich recruiting grounds to pull from, warm weather, and the SEC reputation to draw in players from outside of the footprint if necessary. The population in those states is also more spread out geographically. Urbanization like you see in the Midwest and especially the Northeast doesn't lend itself well to football development.

But the thing is, I don't think the Big 10 necessarily wants to catch up from a talent standpoint to meet its goals, it just wants to provide a compelling enough product for their huge and spread out alumni base and a decent check for its members. It's a different philosophy. A bit of a shortsighted one, if you ask me, but considering the uneven playing field cold weather states are stuck playing on, it might just be the best they can hope to do with what they're stuck working with. I do kind of worry that the Big Ten not prioritizing its traditions like the SEC does will come back to bite them later on. If football fans wanted oversanitized Market Wars they would just watch the NFL.

B1G is already ahead of SEC in Revenue.

Questions is, will the SEC catch up?

(09-30-2022 11:10 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-30-2022 11:02 AM)forphase1 Wrote:  Short answer is no, not very likely. Some of the built in advantages that the SEC enjoys are not going away (geography, recruiting, lack of pro competition, etc). I think the gap can be closed a bit, but actually catching them? No, I don't think so. The SEC has much more depth with 7 teams in the new SEC having won national championships since 2000 versus just 2 for the new Big10. The SEC is just so much deeper. In some years the 4th or 5th best SEC program would challenge for #1-2 in the Big10, while the opposite is rarely true. I don't see that substantially changing, though I expect the gap to close a bit as power/recruiting consolidates between the P2.

There are built in advantages, but there are also advantages that aren't built in.

The SEC has been vastly outspending the Big 10 on coaches and assistant coaches in football, especially the middle schools in each conference.

Michigan St would like a word with you on the spending on coaches point. But that was just this past off season, and overall you're right.

It's hubris to think that just b/c we've won 12/16 National Titles that this will continue indefinitely. Much more likely is that the B1G and others take advantage of the new transfer and NIL rules, or lack thereof, to become more competitive long term.

(09-30-2022 11:24 AM)XLance Wrote:  The B1G has already proven that you don't have to have the best product to make the most money.
In many regards the B1G has passed the SEC by.

So I guess it depends on your criteria to be able to answer the question posed by the OP.

https://www.sportico.com/business/commer...234646029/

SEC (counting new members) has had 6 or 7 of the top 10 in revenues every year for 5 years, except for the Covid year, in which it was 9/10.

Their media deal that starts in 2024 looks nice, but it's not going to make up for stuff like this:

13 Wisconsin $148,198,907
14 Kentucky $146,150,480
15 Iowa $145,636,544

Kentucky was #9 that year in the SEC in generated revenues, Wisconsin was #4 and Iowa was #5 in the B1G. And this is a pretty representative sample of the past half decade.

Or, how about this one:

19 Nebraska $133,629,080
20 South Carolina $133,011,012
21 Michigan State $130,636,629

USC was #11 in the SEC, Nebraska and Michigan St were #6/7 in the B1G. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that not many people outside of SEC country realize that USC makes as much money as Nebraska and Michigan St. Well, maybe you do realize it, but not the USC that you're thinking of.

This reminds me of a story about Arkansas' move to the SEC 30+ years ago:

Quote:Although the Arkansas football was coming off back-to-back SWC titles, that success probably wouldn’t transfer to the SEC. Racking up more losses was a real likelihood, former Arkansas football head coach Jack Crowe told Broyles.

“Frank asked me, “Jack, what would you think about us going to the SEC?,'” Crowe recalled in an ESPN.com feature.

“I told him, ‘Let me tell you something, Frank: We have a hard time beating Texas here.'”

“‘There’s five Texases over there. Five.'”

There aren't 5 texases in the SEC anymore, there are 10. And there are 3 in the B1G.

(09-30-2022 10:30 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(09-30-2022 10:05 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  ....
Considering that football drives the bus -- and that the SEC just added two of the top six brands in college football -- how can the Big Ten ever start competing on the field? And how long will it be before even the people in Big Ten country will come to admit that they are playing second fiddle?
....

That's why the Big Ten intends to poach schools from the ACC. It needs members who can beat the SEC.

Except they won't take Clemson and won't get FSU. So, who else is there which qualifies as an occasional slayer of SEC schools? Duke, North Carolina, Virginia, or used to be SEC Georgia Tech?

Ohio State played for the national championship in 2020, beating Clemson. Now do you put an asterisk on it because of the pandemic? Was it a fluke? The difference is Georgia, unlike LSU, looks to be a long term threat to win national championships along with Alabama.. Michigan was clearly overmatched vs. Georgia last year, it was UM's/Harbaugh's first Playoff appearance. I'm hoping Ohio State (or Michigan or Penn State) will be more competitive vs. either Georgia or Alabama this year. I'm guessing any Big Ten champion this year will likely have to beat both Georgia and Alabama to win the national championship.