Nobody is going to confuse pro golfers with college athletes, and nobody is going to empathize with Phil Mickelson or Dustin Johnson because the PGA Tour is holding them back financially. And the Saudi blood money can actually make the NCAA look benevolent by comparison.

But there is a common element here. Both the PGA Tour and the NCAA (and its member schools) are not for profit institutions, and that limits what they can do financially for the athletes that play for them because they are independent contractors, not employees.

In both cases we are now in the midst of major realignment battles in which the rules haven't been fully thought out yet. It may take several years for the kinks to be worked out to keep the products compelling for fans. In the meantime, will greed put the future of those sports in jeopardy?

(06-10-2022 09:13 AM)ken d Wrote:  Nobody is going to confuse pro golfers with college athletes, and nobody is going to empathize with Phil Mickelson or Dustin Johnson because the PGA Tour is holding them back financially. And the Saudi blood money can actually make the NCAA look benevolent by comparison.

But there is a common element here. Both the PGA Tour and the NCAA (and its member schools) are not for profit institutions, and that limits what they can do financially for the athletes that play for them because they are independent contractors, not employees.

In both cases we are now in the midst of major realignment battles in which the rules haven't been fully thought out yet. It may take several years for the kinks to be worked out to keep the products compelling for fans. In the meantime, will greed put the future of those sports in jeopardy?

No but the fans will pay the price if they want to see the product in person.

The cash inflow from other sources cover the expenses and the owners squeeze the patrons is my prediction.

I can't fault the players for going for a guaranteed payday unlike the PGA tour. They worked hard over the years to build their name to be offered money to be the face of this new tour. Oh, and spare me the BS about it being Saudi Arabia...... everyone hugs China and there are no issues.

One thing that I am surprised about is the rumor of Tiger Woods turning down an offer for close to $1 billion buckaroos.

I don't know anybody who's hugging China. They are tolerated because they can't be ignored. But I wonder what would happen if someone else besides the Saudis started yet another tour in competition with the PGA. Somebody without the baggage. Would they kill the LIV Tour?

Outside the major tournaments, events like the John Deere Classic mostly occupy time between the NBA Finals and Stanley Cup and the start of football season for a lot of sports fans. If most of golf's biggest names had their own tour, those events just become like the Korn Ferry Tour. Could there be enough interest on the part of domestic investors to compete with deep Saudi pockets and attract those top players?

Is this the equivalent of China starting a competitor to the NBA and hiring the old guard stars for crazy money?

The woke crowd head's would explode.

The tricky thing with golf is there are competing interests in play:

1. Fans want to see the best players.
2. Players need opportunity to establish themselves as being the best.

A tour that consists only of limited-field invitation-only events is one that sacrifices (2) for the sake of (1).

(06-10-2022 11:46 AM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Is this the equivalent of China starting a competitor to the NBA and hiring the old guard stars for crazy money?

The woke crowd head's would explode.

Incorrect. The pathetic woke crowd only cares about about things in the US. They are fully fine with turning a blind eye to everyone else.

(06-10-2022 01:25 PM)otown Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 11:46 AM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Is this the equivalent of China starting a competitor to the NBA and hiring the old guard stars for crazy money?

The woke crowd head's would explode.

Incorrect. The pathetic woke crowd only cares about about things in the US. They are fully fine with turning a blind eye to everyone else.

How about we keep the politics out of this?

This thread is about how mixing some sports, which at its core is an entertainment activity, with not for profit autocratic sponsors. Inevitably, it seems to create fault lines that will eventually lead to fractures. Non-profits have restrictions on what they can do that are fundamentally incompatible with free markets.

If the PGA were a for profit entity, would they refuse to allow appearance fees for their superstars? We've already seen what happens when colleges are prohibited from paying their stars (not to mention their entire labor force).

When there are big bucks involved, we may not like how the players (on both sides of the table) act, but at least if they are acting rationally we can understand it.

(06-10-2022 01:53 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 01:25 PM)otown Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 11:46 AM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Is this the equivalent of China starting a competitor to the NBA and hiring the old guard stars for crazy money?

The woke crowd head's would explode.

Incorrect. The pathetic woke crowd only cares about about things in the US. They are fully fine with turning a blind eye to everyone else.

How about we keep the politics out of this?

Being woke is political?

(06-10-2022 01:58 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 01:53 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 01:25 PM)otown Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 11:46 AM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Is this the equivalent of China starting a competitor to the NBA and hiring the old guard stars for crazy money?

The woke crowd head's would explode.

Incorrect. The pathetic woke crowd only cares about about things in the US. They are fully fine with turning a blind eye to everyone else.

How about we keep the politics out of this?

Being woke is political?

Yea, I'm scratching my head at his comment as well. Maybe he didn't like Top Gun Maverick either? Lol

(06-10-2022 02:57 PM)otown Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 01:58 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 01:53 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 01:25 PM)otown Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 11:46 AM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Is this the equivalent of China starting a competitor to the NBA and hiring the old guard stars for crazy money?

The woke crowd head's would explode.

Incorrect. The pathetic woke crowd only cares about about things in the US. They are fully fine with turning a blind eye to everyone else.

How about we keep the politics out of this?

Being woke is political?

Yea, I'm scratching my head at his comment as well. Maybe he didn't like Top Gun Maverick either? Lol

Have you two been living under rocks of various sorts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

Quote:Among American conservatives, woke has come to be used primarily as an insult. In this pejorative sense, woke means "following an intolerant and moralising ideology." British journalist Steven Poole comments that the term is used to mock "overrighteous liberalism". Romano says that on the American right, "'woke' – like its cousin 'canceled' – bespeaks 'political correctness' gone awry"

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why...-strategy/

Quote:“Woke” was originally a term used largely by Black people in activist circles, particularly after the rise of Black Lives Matter, to signify a consciousness around racial issues in America. The term is still sometimes used in that context.

But in culture and politics today, the most prominent uses of “woke” are as a pejorative — Republicans attacking Democrats, more centrist Democrats attacking more liberal ones and supporters of the British monarchy using the term to criticize people more sympathetic to Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. Those critical of so-called woke ideas and people often invoke the idea that they are being “canceled” or a victim of “cancel culture.”

So yes, bringing up "the woke crowd" in a negative way, as was done in this thread, is a political statement whether you intended it to be or not.


Edit: I don't want to get this into a huge derail, but this needed to be pointed out. Not everyone on this site is on the same end of the political spectrum and this can end up just being trolling to get a rise out of people (and get them banned as a result). We don't all joke about the same things.

No, AAU is an example of pay to play. "We have 4 players who are D1 recruits (obviously sponsored, we're not charging them) we want to show case at the Nationals. Any parents want their kids to be at the showcase too? If so make a check out for $800 to ..."

This is more like an appearance money setup, a "pay for play" type deal. Guys they can advertise. Believe it, these guys are giving up NIL so that these Gulf countries can sell their resorts across Europe, Asia and the US.

When I say I agree College FB and MBB may be headed to "pay to play," I mean the non NIL players who fill out the squad and are not featured --maybe a few they can work their way into that-- will have to pay money to be on the team. This is a post-scholarship world, where you either get everything as a preferred employee or you will have to buy your way on. This is how every other field on campus works. If you are a full ride academic scholarship that the professors give special projects too, you are one category, otherwise you have to come up with the money to be on campus.

(06-10-2022 03:17 PM)e-parade Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 02:57 PM)otown Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 01:58 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 01:53 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 01:25 PM)otown Wrote:  Incorrect. The pathetic woke crowd only cares about about things in the US. They are fully fine with turning a blind eye to everyone else.

How about we keep the politics out of this?

Being woke is political?

Yea, I'm scratching my head at his comment as well. Maybe he didn't like Top Gun Maverick either? Lol

Have you two been living under rocks of various sorts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

Quote:Among American conservatives, woke has come to be used primarily as an insult. In this pejorative sense, woke means "following an intolerant and moralising ideology." British journalist Steven Poole comments that the term is used to mock "overrighteous liberalism". Romano says that on the American right, "'woke' – like its cousin 'canceled' – bespeaks 'political correctness' gone awry"

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why...-strategy/

Quote:“Woke” was originally a term used largely by Black people in activist circles, particularly after the rise of Black Lives Matter, to signify a consciousness around racial issues in America. The term is still sometimes used in that context.

But in culture and politics today, the most prominent uses of “woke” are as a pejorative — Republicans attacking Democrats, more centrist Democrats attacking more liberal ones and supporters of the British monarchy using the term to criticize people more sympathetic to Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. Those critical of so-called woke ideas and people often invoke the idea that they are being “canceled” or a victim of “cancel culture.”

So yes, bringing up "the woke crowd" in a negative way, as was done in this thread, is a political statement whether you intended it to be or not.


Edit: I don't want to get this into a huge derail, but this needed to be pointed out. Not everyone on this site is on the same end of the political spectrum and this can end up just being trolling to get a rise out of people (and get them banned as a result). We don't all joke about the same things.

Don’t assume you know where people stand. Lighten up Francis.

It's worth noting that David Puig, who just finished his junior year at Arizona State and is coming back for his senior year, is getting paid to play in this LIV Golf event.

(06-10-2022 04:08 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 03:17 PM)e-parade Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 02:57 PM)otown Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 01:58 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 01:53 PM)ken d Wrote:  How about we keep the politics out of this?

Being woke is political?

Yea, I'm scratching my head at his comment as well. Maybe he didn't like Top Gun Maverick either? Lol

Have you two been living under rocks of various sorts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

Quote:Among American conservatives, woke has come to be used primarily as an insult. In this pejorative sense, woke means "following an intolerant and moralising ideology." British journalist Steven Poole comments that the term is used to mock "overrighteous liberalism". Romano says that on the American right, "'woke' – like its cousin 'canceled' – bespeaks 'political correctness' gone awry"

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why...-strategy/

Quote:“Woke” was originally a term used largely by Black people in activist circles, particularly after the rise of Black Lives Matter, to signify a consciousness around racial issues in America. The term is still sometimes used in that context.

But in culture and politics today, the most prominent uses of “woke” are as a pejorative — Republicans attacking Democrats, more centrist Democrats attacking more liberal ones and supporters of the British monarchy using the term to criticize people more sympathetic to Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. Those critical of so-called woke ideas and people often invoke the idea that they are being “canceled” or a victim of “cancel culture.”

So yes, bringing up "the woke crowd" in a negative way, as was done in this thread, is a political statement whether you intended it to be or not.


Edit: I don't want to get this into a huge derail, but this needed to be pointed out. Not everyone on this site is on the same end of the political spectrum and this can end up just being trolling to get a rise out of people (and get them banned as a result). We don't all joke about the same things.

Don’t assume you know where people stand. Lighten up Francis.

That was my point to you. And that the original statement was a troll. If you can't make your point without making a disparaging remark about a nebulous group of people then what's the actual point of your statement?

Also it doesn't matter where you stand or what your intent was. The most common use of the term is as a political statement and therefore you were, at best, unintentionally making a political statement. When this was brought up you simply denied and accused other people of being the real problem. (this is essentially the definition of trolling)

The LIV event in London has a couple of big names and a lot of unknowns. But I bet you they will keep adding players until the PGA Tour makes some huge concessions (starting with appearance money). It's going to be a bidding war the likes we haven't seen since the NFL/USFL, or maybe the NBA/ABA decades ago (which was for much less money obviously).

Supposedly, DeChambeau, Reed, Matthew Wolff and then some more 40-year-old washed up guys were added to the list today (well Rickie Fowler might not be washed up quite yet). The PGA Tour can't keep afford to losing guys. I wonder if they might just scratch the whole FedEx Cup (which quite frankly is a useless event, that is buried too deep into the PGA season and has to go head to head against NFL/college football). Take all that FedEx money and pour it into the other events - and add appearance fees. And the PGA will win out. Just like the NFL and NBA did.

One element to the LIV Tour that would be fun to implement in a PGA event is the shotgun start. It makes scoreboard watching a heck of a lot harder, and takes away advantages that some tournaments have when players are on the right side of the draw with the better weather conditions.

(06-10-2022 04:37 PM)e-parade Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 04:08 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 03:17 PM)e-parade Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 02:57 PM)otown Wrote:  

(06-10-2022 01:58 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Being woke is political?

Yea, I'm scratching my head at his comment as well. Maybe he didn't like Top Gun Maverick either? Lol

Have you two been living under rocks of various sorts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

Quote:Among American conservatives, woke has come to be used primarily as an insult. In this pejorative sense, woke means "following an intolerant and moralising ideology." British journalist Steven Poole comments that the term is used to mock "overrighteous liberalism". Romano says that on the American right, "'woke' – like its cousin 'canceled' – bespeaks 'political correctness' gone awry"

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why...-strategy/

Quote:“Woke” was originally a term used largely by Black people in activist circles, particularly after the rise of Black Lives Matter, to signify a consciousness around racial issues in America. The term is still sometimes used in that context.

But in culture and politics today, the most prominent uses of “woke” are as a pejorative — Republicans attacking Democrats, more centrist Democrats attacking more liberal ones and supporters of the British monarchy using the term to criticize people more sympathetic to Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. Those critical of so-called woke ideas and people often invoke the idea that they are being “canceled” or a victim of “cancel culture.”

So yes, bringing up "the woke crowd" in a negative way, as was done in this thread, is a political statement whether you intended it to be or not.


Edit: I don't want to get this into a huge derail, but this needed to be pointed out. Not everyone on this site is on the same end of the political spectrum and this can end up just being trolling to get a rise out of people (and get them banned as a result). We don't all joke about the same things.

Don’t assume you know where people stand. Lighten up Francis.

That was my point to you. And that the original statement was a troll. If you can't make your point without making a disparaging remark about a nebulous group of people then what's the actual point of your statement?

Also it doesn't matter where you stand or what your intent was. The most common use of the term is as a political statement and therefore you were, at best, unintentionally making a political statement. When this was brought up you simply denied and accused other people of being the real problem. (this is essentially the definition of trolling)

It was a factual statement. Facts you don’t agree with are now “trolling” statements…

The NBA will never stand up to China. All those SJW get weak kneed when they go up against revenue generators, principles go out the window.

Families of 9/11 victims outraged at US LIV Golf players

Quote:The chair of a September 11, 2001, attacks victims’ families group says members are outraged by the “betrayal” of US golfers playing in the Saudi-funded LIV Golf Invitational Series.

The comments from Terry Strada, the widow of a 9/11 victim, were made in a public letter Friday to agents of such major champions as Phil Mickelson, Dustin Johnson, Bryson DeChambeau and Patrick Reed.

“Please rethink your membership in this Saudi enterprise,” Strada wrote. “We urge you to reconsider so that you can stand with us and send a message to the Kingdom: you cannot buy respect, you must earn it.”

All have been confirmed as signing with the rebel series, which offers the richest purses in golf history, after departing the US PGA Tour.

All are set to play in the upcoming US Open at The Country Club in Brookline, Massachusetts, which is organized by the US Golf Association.

“Our community wishes to express our outrage at your partnership with LIV Golf and remind you of the responsibility that your new business partner, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, shoulders for providing the financial support and logistical support that enabled the terrorists to attack our nation and kill our loved ones,” Strada wrote.

“Much to our disappointment, you appear pleased to be in business with them. Given Saudi Arabia’s role in the death of our loved ones and those injured on 9/11 -— your fellow Americans —- we are angered that you are so willing to help the Saudis cover up this history in their request for ‘respectability.'”

Strada has been active in the group that has sued Saudi Arabia for complicity in the 9/11 attacks in which almost 3,000 people died, something the Saudi government has denied.

But Strada said US golfers who opt to play in the new series have betrayed the victims‘ families.

“Please, do not insult our loved ones’ memories and take the pathetic position, as one of your foreign colleagues did last week, claiming you are ‘just golfers playing a game’ or blandly treating the evils of the Saudi regime as ‘human rights’ concerns. You’re all Americans, keenly aware of the death and destruction of September 11.

“Whether it was the appeal of millions of dollars of hard cash or just the opportunity to prosecute your professional grievances with the PGA, you have sold us out.”

Strada said no consideration should ever be made to allow LIV Golf players to represent the United States in the Ryder Cup.

“We understand that some of you are hopeful that rule changes will be implemented to allow you to again represent America in the Ryder Cup despite your betrayal of American interests in joining the Saudi ‘sports wash,'” Strada wrote.

People still golf? Much less watch it? 300 courses close in the U S every year.

Screw the PGA and their holier than though bulk **** hypocrisy.

The LIV will continue to pull of players. Ultimately if the product is better it will succeed.



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