The unofficial online home for fans of the University of Cincinnati Bearcats. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(02-17-2022 06:05 PM)natibeast2.0 Wrote:  

(02-17-2022 01:54 PM)Bearhawkeye Wrote:  

(02-17-2022 01:36 PM)natibeast2.0 Wrote:  

(02-17-2022 01:26 PM)doss2 Wrote:  

(02-03-2022 04:15 PM)natibeast2.0 Wrote:  Yeah I didn't understand that line either. Their corporate address is in Cincinnati. Maybe they think they would change that to the practice field location to save on tax?

Idk I'm not a tax man.

Lindner built FCC practice site in Milford. The Bengals excuse is "lame"! While I have an MS Tax from UC I am long retired, but the taxation of the team and the players can be dealt with as it is not an unheard-of situation.

I didn't think so and figured it happens in numerous industries..appreciate the confirmation

I'm not sure how valid the tax issue is and I'm fairly skeptical about it. But just claiming "it can be dealt with" isn't really a meaningful confirmation of anything.

"– but doing so would take an employer out of Downtown and be a financial hit to the county losing the earning tax. Not something they are willing to do."

Confirming it was a lame excuse above is what I was looking for assuming it's true as it is just an excuse which it seems to be unless anyone else has input.

I would bet a good amount that the Bengals are saying the reason they won't build a practice facility is due to the county losing taxes is just BS.

I have no idea what the work around would be (I still don't get it unless they at least changed corporate address. The players are getting paid to play in PBS. Where they practice I don't think matters (although a condition of their employment I would think so maybe it does), but I hate everything taxes so I'm not looking it up or other examples where employers worked with counties to find out haha. That's one of the first things I'll pay someone else to read and let me know (not here so don't DM if you have the answer ) especially if there isn't a completely straight forward or direct answer to the question which is likely the case. If anyone else has inputs feel free..

I'm just speculating, but it sounds like there is a principle involved here in terms of loyalty/decency/fairness. Hamilton County was the only county willing to get involved in the funding for the stadium. One might consider it very poor form, if not a slap in the face, to turn around and build an expensive facility in another county which would presumably get benefits from it in terms of property taxes along with jobs and businesses and the associated tax revenues from them indefinitely into the future, etc.

Income tax basis allocation is typically based on 3 factors. For businesses the factors used are % of net book value of property and equipment, % of sales and % of payroll. These percents are then averaged and that average times total income is attributed to that tax entity.

Now for taxing employee’s the allocation is typically based upon the number of days worked in each tax entity.

(02-14-2022 01:01 AM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(02-11-2022 10:36 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Frankly very few owners are relatable to me, particularly in the NFL which is often more established, older money owners. For me the franchise is more about the city than the owner who profits from it. I've never waivered in my Bengals fandom and doubt I ever will. Bearcat basketball and football have always been 1a and 1b for me as a sports fan, but the Bengals have always been the professional franchise I care most about.

Yea they were poorly run in the 90s. Mike Brown made a bunch of bad hires, didn't work well with the coaches or seemingly do very well with front office stuff. They've mostly been an above average NFL franchise since Marvin Lewis. They've won a few division titles in a tough division. They've made the playoffs several times. They never had that elite QB (they hoped Palmer would be and while I think Palmer was an elite throwing talent...I always viewed his potential as more Drew Bledsoe than Tom Brady). That's not necessarily the sign of a poorly run franchise. It takes luck to get that.

Now they have the franchise QB. After some draft struggles late in the Marvin tenure they are back to hitting at a high rate in the draft. They've done a great job with smart free agent signings. Whatever they were in the 90s, they've seemingly improved at how they run things the last 2 decades. We can pretend otherwise, but it would be ignoring reality.

The Browns are a rich family that take advantage of the NFL setup like nearly every other owner in the league has done (whether it be tax payer funded stadiums or friendly tax policies). That's the bargain with professional sports. I care more about the players I invest in and the city(fans) that invests in them.

Whodey.

Cincinnati’s team is the Reds. The history of the city and that team are intertwined. There is a connection regardless of ownership.

The bengals are a johnny come lately that has been run as a profit center for Mikey ever since he took over the helm. The bengals are run as a business without concern for its fans or the city that forked over mounds of cash. Bengals fans for most part have been treated as useful idiots. No need to create a good product when fans continue to pay money.

I’ve long said that the bengals won’t win a super bowl as long as mikey runs the show. seems like my prediction has been good for 30-something years now.

Given the state of the Reds I thought this would be interesting to revisit. Reds don't really seem to have much regard for their fans these days.

(03-17-2022 07:41 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 01:01 AM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(02-11-2022 10:36 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Frankly very few owners are relatable to me, particularly in the NFL which is often more established, older money owners. For me the franchise is more about the city than the owner who profits from it. I've never waivered in my Bengals fandom and doubt I ever will. Bearcat basketball and football have always been 1a and 1b for me as a sports fan, but the Bengals have always been the professional franchise I care most about.

Yea they were poorly run in the 90s. Mike Brown made a bunch of bad hires, didn't work well with the coaches or seemingly do very well with front office stuff. They've mostly been an above average NFL franchise since Marvin Lewis. They've won a few division titles in a tough division. They've made the playoffs several times. They never had that elite QB (they hoped Palmer would be and while I think Palmer was an elite throwing talent...I always viewed his potential as more Drew Bledsoe than Tom Brady). That's not necessarily the sign of a poorly run franchise. It takes luck to get that.

Now they have the franchise QB. After some draft struggles late in the Marvin tenure they are back to hitting at a high rate in the draft. They've done a great job with smart free agent signings. Whatever they were in the 90s, they've seemingly improved at how they run things the last 2 decades. We can pretend otherwise, but it would be ignoring reality.

The Browns are a rich family that take advantage of the NFL setup like nearly every other owner in the league has done (whether it be tax payer funded stadiums or friendly tax policies). That's the bargain with professional sports. I care more about the players I invest in and the city(fans) that invests in them.

Whodey.

Cincinnati’s team is the Reds. The history of the city and that team are intertwined. There is a connection regardless of ownership.

The bengals are a johnny come lately that has been run as a profit center for Mikey ever since he took over the helm. The bengals are run as a business without concern for its fans or the city that forked over mounds of cash. Bengals fans for most part have been treated as useful idiots. No need to create a good product when fans continue to pay money.

I’ve long said that the bengals won’t win a super bowl as long as mikey runs the show. seems like my prediction has been good for 30-something years now.

Given the state of the Reds I thought this would be interesting to revisit. Reds don't really seem to have much regard for their fans these days.

Although Castellini hasn't come out and said it explicitly, he lost a boatload of money on the 2020 season. He unfortunately chose that year to invest heavily in the free agent market and because of COVID it was probably a total loss. So I understand his hesitancy to invest more as long as another COVID shutdown is a real possibilty.

Could HUC eventually become available for UC to buy?

Jewish community members in Cincinnati are planning to rally outside of Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion Thursday evening in opposition to a proposed phase-out of the city's residential rabbinical school.

The institution's board of governors is set to vote on the proposed plan this weekend, which addresses declining enrollment and financial issues at the college. The recommendation would focus the school's rabbinical programs at coastal campuses in New York City and Los Angeles, and cease ordaining rabbis in Cincinnati – home of the nation's oldest Jewish seminary that has trained rabbis for nearly 150 years.

"It is a core of Cincinnati," Lew Ebstein, of Montgomery, said of the college. Ebstein, a Jewish Cincinnatian and member of Wise Temple, is organizing the rally. "And not standing with it or not protecting it is a travesty. Because it undermines our city and it shows that we're less important, and any other institution could go by the wayside as well."


Ebstein said he does not have a direct connection to the college, in the University Heights neighborhood but has friends that went to the institution and has seen the positive impacts of Hebrew Union College on the region.

Students at the college are involved in the greater Cincinnati community – and other Midwest communities, too – as leaders in local synagogues, nonprofits, camps, schools and are bar and bat mitzvah tutors.

(04-07-2022 10:16 AM)doss2 Wrote:  Could HUC eventually become available for UC to buy?

Jewish community members in Cincinnati are planning to rally outside of Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion Thursday evening in opposition to a proposed phase-out of the city's residential rabbinical school.

The institution's board of governors is set to vote on the proposed plan this weekend, which addresses declining enrollment and financial issues at the college. The recommendation would focus the school's rabbinical programs at coastal campuses in New York City and Los Angeles, and cease ordaining rabbis in Cincinnati – home of the nation's oldest Jewish seminary that has trained rabbis for nearly 150 years.

"It is a core of Cincinnati," Lew Ebstein, of Montgomery, said of the college. Ebstein, a Jewish Cincinnatian and member of Wise Temple, is organizing the rally. "And not standing with it or not protecting it is a travesty. Because it undermines our city and it shows that we're less important, and any other institution could go by the wayside as well."


Ebstein said he does not have a direct connection to the college, in the University Heights neighborhood but has friends that went to the institution and has seen the positive impacts of Hebrew Union College on the region.

Students at the college are involved in the greater Cincinnati community – and other Midwest communities, too – as leaders in local synagogues, nonprofits, camps, schools and are bar and bat mitzvah tutors.

It would be sad to see the city lose that historic institution... but if that happened I've long wondered if UC would pounce on that campus property? Beautiful buildings in about as close a proximity to campus as one could ever wish for.

(03-20-2022 06:40 AM)Edgebrookjeff Wrote:  

(03-17-2022 07:41 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 01:01 AM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(02-11-2022 10:36 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Frankly very few owners are relatable to me, particularly in the NFL which is often more established, older money owners. For me the franchise is more about the city than the owner who profits from it. I've never waivered in my Bengals fandom and doubt I ever will. Bearcat basketball and football have always been 1a and 1b for me as a sports fan, but the Bengals have always been the professional franchise I care most about.

Yea they were poorly run in the 90s. Mike Brown made a bunch of bad hires, didn't work well with the coaches or seemingly do very well with front office stuff. They've mostly been an above average NFL franchise since Marvin Lewis. They've won a few division titles in a tough division. They've made the playoffs several times. They never had that elite QB (they hoped Palmer would be and while I think Palmer was an elite throwing talent...I always viewed his potential as more Drew Bledsoe than Tom Brady). That's not necessarily the sign of a poorly run franchise. It takes luck to get that.

Now they have the franchise QB. After some draft struggles late in the Marvin tenure they are back to hitting at a high rate in the draft. They've done a great job with smart free agent signings. Whatever they were in the 90s, they've seemingly improved at how they run things the last 2 decades. We can pretend otherwise, but it would be ignoring reality.

The Browns are a rich family that take advantage of the NFL setup like nearly every other owner in the league has done (whether it be tax payer funded stadiums or friendly tax policies). That's the bargain with professional sports. I care more about the players I invest in and the city(fans) that invests in them.

Whodey.

Cincinnati’s team is the Reds. The history of the city and that team are intertwined. There is a connection regardless of ownership.

The bengals are a johnny come lately that has been run as a profit center for Mikey ever since he took over the helm. The bengals are run as a business without concern for its fans or the city that forked over mounds of cash. Bengals fans for most part have been treated as useful idiots. No need to create a good product when fans continue to pay money.

I’ve long said that the bengals won’t win a super bowl as long as mikey runs the show. seems like my prediction has been good for 30-something years now.

Given the state of the Reds I thought this would be interesting to revisit. Reds don't really seem to have much regard for their fans these days.

Although Castellini hasn't come out and said it explicitly, he lost a boatload of money on the 2020 season. He unfortunately chose that year to invest heavily in the free agent market and because of COVID it was probably a total loss. So I understand his hesitancy to invest more as long as another COVID shutdown is a real possibilty.

Bungles and Reds are interesting case studies. One (Bungles) was run as a business without concern for fans or the local community. They finally, after over 3 decades of ineptness, won the lottery with Burrow. He fell into their lap. Now the "fans" claim it is the best run franchise in all of pro sports.

Reds deeply cared about their fans and community. Kept and brought in players to appease the fanbase, i.e. Griffey and currently Votto. They know their core fans love bobbleheads, fireworks, theme nights and free concerts. Hence, a good dose of this on the sched. Invested greatly in building youth ballparks around the tri-state. Work closely with the downtown/banks business communities. Castellini just went all in a couple of years ago and COVID hurt that process. He suffered massive monetary losses and wants to get above water.

(04-07-2022 11:52 AM)bearcatmill Wrote:  Bungles and Reds are interesting case studies. One (Bungles) was run as a business without concern for fans or the local community. They finally, after over 3 decades of ineptness, won the lottery with Burrow. He fell into their lap. Now the "fans" claim it is the best run franchise in all of pro sports.

Reds deeply cared about their fans and community. Kept and brought in players to appease the fanbase, i.e. Griffey and currently Votto. They know their core fans love bobbleheads, fireworks, theme nights and free concerts. Hence, a good dose of this on the sched. Invested greatly in building youth ballparks around the tri-state. Work closely with the downtown/banks business communities. Castellini just went all in a couple of years ago and COVID hurt that process. He suffered massive monetary losses and wants to get above water.

I don't buy the "massive" monetary losses. It is estimated (on the low end) that they pull $75M per year from RSN TV. $54M from the national deal. At least $60M from tickets and concessions. Actually, I think Forbes estimates the Reds doing $276M per year across all revenues. $122M in player salaries is not going to cause them to have massive monetary losses.

(04-07-2022 02:15 PM)mlb Wrote:  

(04-07-2022 11:52 AM)bearcatmill Wrote:  Bungles and Reds are interesting case studies. One (Bungles) was run as a business without concern for fans or the local community. They finally, after over 3 decades of ineptness, won the lottery with Burrow. He fell into their lap. Now the "fans" claim it is the best run franchise in all of pro sports.

Reds deeply cared about their fans and community. Kept and brought in players to appease the fanbase, i.e. Griffey and currently Votto. They know their core fans love bobbleheads, fireworks, theme nights and free concerts. Hence, a good dose of this on the sched. Invested greatly in building youth ballparks around the tri-state. Work closely with the downtown/banks business communities. Castellini just went all in a couple of years ago and COVID hurt that process. He suffered massive monetary losses and wants to get above water.

I don't buy the "massive" monetary losses. It is estimated (on the low end) that they pull $75M per year from RSN TV. $54M from the national deal. At least $60M from tickets and concessions. Actually, I think Forbes estimates the Reds doing $276M per year across all revenues. $122M in player salaries is not going to cause them to have massive monetary losses.

That's in a normal year.

The COVID season was only 60 games. And no ticket sales/concessions.


Also, you're not counting the large fixed costs. Maintaining a massive stadium. Field maintenance. Front office expenses. The Reds have 347 full-time employees who aren't on the field.

https://www.mlb.com/reds/team/front-office

Full time employees by department:
15 - Executive Office
10 - Front Office
5 - Baseball Analytics
15 - Pro Scouting
29 - Amateur Scouting
9 - International Scouting
55 - Player Development
40 - Health & Performance
2 - Arizona Operations
1 - Team Travel
5 - Media Relations
3 - Clubhouse
20 - Ballpark Operations
3 - Field Operations
13 - Public Safety & Security
15 - Communications, Digital Media
5 - Promotional Events & Player Relations
24 - Productions
3 - Accounting
3 - Human Resources
2 - Payroll
8 - Baseball Data & Development
5 - Technology
6 - Business Analytics
15 - Ticket Operations, Single Game Ticketing, Special Events
20 - Ticket Sales & Service
6 - Reds Community Fund
8 - Reds Hall of Fame Museum




In 2003, the Brewers listed $50.8 million in Operating Expenses that didn't include player compensation. That was 18 years ago for the franchise with the league's smallest market, the 3rd smallest player payroll, and a brand new ballpark that required little upkeep.

https://legis.wisconsin.gov/lab/reports/04-brewers.pdf

Considering all these franchises keep going up exponentially in value, I'm very dubious of the idea that they are losing money.

According to a report from the Dodgers, every team in MLB received [b]at least[b] $110M in shared revenue from the MLB this past season...so that's the starting point without even including ANY other shared revenue. There is no chance anyone can lose money in the American professional athletics system, regardless of how inept you are. What is more likely to have happened is Castellini personally lost money or became less liquid, which, for someone with his low net worth, would absolutely make you reconsider spending habits in an industry with front-end expense and back-end revenue.

(04-07-2022 02:53 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Considering all these franchises keep going up exponentially in value, I'm very dubious of the idea that they are losing money.

"dubious of the idea that they are losing money?"

Did you take any accounting courses? Did you learn anything?

Going up in value is quite different than profitability and positive cash flow.

Going up in value is unrealized income. I suspect your house has went up in value. Did that mean you made income? Come on man!

Liberal Biden wants to tax increases in value (unrealized appreciation).

I believe it was John Fay who reported the Reds lost $2 million last year. Even removing creating accounting, I really don't feel bad for them. I'm sure the franchise's value went up much more than that. I don't expect them to run in the Red every year, but I don't need to hear them cry poor either.

(04-08-2022 04:34 AM)Z-Fly Wrote:  I believe it was John Fay who reported the Reds lost $2 million last year. Even removing creating accounting, I really don't feel bad for them. I'm sure the franchise's value went up much more than that. I don't expect them to run in the Red every year, but I don't need to hear them cry poor either.

Exactly, $2 million for a billion dollar business is insignificant. This year was going to be more profitable anyway since last year opened with limited capacity and this year had reduced costs with the lockout reducing spring training and a week's work of regular season games. I don't have an issue with rebuilding but the giving away players just to slash salary like Miley and giving away Winker to move Suarez's salary is a bad look. That said they've got interesting young players and still have good veterans; I think they can be a fun team to watch.

(04-07-2022 02:53 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Considering all these franchises keep going up exponentially in value, I'm very dubious of the idea that they are losing money.

This is so far off base. You're comparing apples to oranges. Net worth to net income. It's the typical democrat news fodder issue..."so and so is worth $1 billion and paid a lower rate of tax than a school teacher". Yep, great analogy. That's why we have the estate tax in the US. People don't understand the difference between net worth and taxable income.

The Reds lost $42 million over the past two years. That's cash flow losses, and that's kind of a big deal, even to a guy like Castellini. He can't cover expenses with increases in team value and net worth, it takes cash flow.

What the Reds are doing now is cutting costs and stockpiling not just prospects, but they're stockpiling cash as well. They will have a couple very profitable years due to TV revenue, radio revenue, and MLB profit sharing. Then they will take that cash and their shiny new prospects and make a run at it in a few years to hopefully compete with the Dodgers, Yankees, etc. of the world that don't have to play the rebuilding game.

(04-08-2022 09:48 AM)RealDeal Wrote:  

(04-08-2022 04:34 AM)Z-Fly Wrote:  I believe it was John Fay who reported the Reds lost $2 million last year. Even removing creating accounting, I really don't feel bad for them. I'm sure the franchise's value went up much more than that. I don't expect them to run in the Red every year, but I don't need to hear them cry poor either.

Exactly, $2 million for a billion dollar business is insignificant. This year was going to be more profitable anyway since last year opened with limited capacity and this year had reduced costs with the lockout reducing spring training and a week's work of regular season games. I don't have an issue with rebuilding but the giving away players just to slash salary like Miley and giving away Winker to move Suarez's salary is a bad look. That said they've got interesting young players and still have good veterans; I think they can be a fun team to watch.

Really mediocre lineup.
India great rookie
Aquino a 3 week wonder
Pham castoff hit .211 .229 in last 2 years
Drury another castoff
Farmer limited range for SS
Senzel might be good if he can ever stay healthy
Stephenson once Votto retires move him to first
Votto must keep him for $25 large
Moustakas another castoff.

God you guys want to invoke politics into every damn discussion. I give you plenty of fodder on the political boards. Stop ruining the main boards with this crap too.

(04-08-2022 11:55 AM)bearcats23 Wrote:  

(04-07-2022 02:53 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Considering all these franchises keep going up exponentially in value, I'm very dubious of the idea that they are losing money.

This is so far off base. You're comparing apples to oranges. Net worth to net income. It's the typical democrat news fodder issue..."so and so is worth $1 billion and paid a lower rate of tax than a school teacher". Yep, great analogy. That's why we have the estate tax in the US. People don't understand the difference between net worth and taxable income.

The Reds lost $42 million over the past two years. That's cash flow losses, and that's kind of a big deal, even to a guy like Castellini. He can't cover expenses with increases in team value and net worth, it takes cash flow.

What the Reds are doing now is cutting costs and stockpiling not just prospects, but they're stockpiling cash as well. They will have a couple very profitable years due to TV revenue, radio revenue, and MLB profit sharing. Then they will take that cash and their shiny new prospects and make a run at it in a few years to hopefully compete with the Dodgers, Yankees, etc. of the world that don't have to play the rebuilding game.

Ignoring the political BS that you cannot resist, these franchises aren't appreciating in value at the rate they do because they are hemorrhaging money. If they were losing money the way you seem to believe..he'd go ahead and cash out to a buyer at 10 times what he bought in for.

(04-08-2022 01:46 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(04-08-2022 11:55 AM)bearcats23 Wrote:  

(04-07-2022 02:53 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Considering all these franchises keep going up exponentially in value, I'm very dubious of the idea that they are losing money.

This is so far off base. You're comparing apples to oranges. Net worth to net income. It's the typical democrat news fodder issue..."so and so is worth $1 billion and paid a lower rate of tax than a school teacher". Yep, great analogy. That's why we have the estate tax in the US. People don't understand the difference between net worth and taxable income.

The Reds lost $42 million over the past two years. That's cash flow losses, and that's kind of a big deal, even to a guy like Castellini. He can't cover expenses with increases in team value and net worth, it takes cash flow.

What the Reds are doing now is cutting costs and stockpiling not just prospects, but they're stockpiling cash as well. They will have a couple very profitable years due to TV revenue, radio revenue, and MLB profit sharing. Then they will take that cash and their shiny new prospects and make a run at it in a few years to hopefully compete with the Dodgers, Yankees, etc. of the world that don't have to play the rebuilding game.

Ignoring the political BS that you cannot resist, these franchises aren't appreciating in value at the rate they do because they are hemorrhaging money. If they were losing money the way you seem to believe..he'd go ahead and cash out to a buyer at 10 times what he bought in for.

I believe they probably lost a decent chunk of change in 2020, but I doubt it was a real actual $40 Million. Regardless, even if they did, that's the risks of being an owner. The owners get the largest chunk of the pie, because they are ones taking the risk. I have no issue with that. You also don't get to pull out your pockets and say poor me, after profiting handsomely the 15 years prior.

I honestly don't care how much they make or lose. That's not my business, but they love to make it our business. That goes with the same with any other business I chose to spend my time or money on. Give me a good product, at a reasonable price, and I'll consider giving you my resources. Just because it says Cincinnati on the front, doesn't mean you are the City's charity case.

Also, don't blame the fans, when people aren't buying tickets. Again, not a charity case.

Bengals to build cheap air bubble practice facility.


https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/i-t...lltop-land