(06-27-2021 01:14 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  

(06-24-2021 10:53 PM)HerdZoned Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 11:44 AM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 11:36 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 08:49 AM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  FCS is a combo of DI through DIII. When you have three conferences (Ivy, SWAC, MEAC) that don't send their champ to the playoffs, four conferences (Pioneer, NEC, Patriot, Ivy) with less than the full amount of scholarships, and a second championship inside the division you can expect a hot mess.

Almost 1/3 or so of the I-aa/FCS champions since its beginning have moved to FBS. Those dozen or so schools who actually have the ability to win a championship don't seem to care the playing field has reduced to redheaded step children.


Edit: However I still watch. Because football.

No - FCS is still DI. And it isn't a mess. And FCS produces a True National Championship - something App St will never play for again.

Simmer Donna.

FCS is DI but has active elements of DII (Patriot/NEC) and DIII (Ivy and Pioneer). There's two championships being played for by leagues classified as FCS. Hot. Mess.


App State fans wouldn't have the school move back to that classification for any reason. I was in the stands for the first bowl win and it was more exciting than my time in Chattanooga at both the 2nd or the 3rd FCS championship.

Almost anyone that was anything 25 years ago, is no longer IAA. App State, GA Southern, Troy, MT, WKU, Boise State, Marshall and even ULM. Just in those 8 schools accounts for 14 IAA National Titles with GA Southern (6), App State (3), Marshall (2), WKU (1), Boise State (1) and ULM (1). I guess if you want to you could add UMass and add another IAA title as they won the 1998 National Title.

There is no parity at the top of IAA like there was from the mid 80s to the mid 90s. As we speak there is probably only 4-6 programs that could legitimately contend and win a national championship.

IAA is a jumbled mess with those that fully fund their program like North Dakota State and JMU to those who only have football to stay in the conference because its required ie. VMI and Central Conn. State.

Then you have the Ivy, Pioneer, SWAC and MEAC that like to play by their own rules.

But the thing is there is probably less that 5 schools that could actually be IA and do it the right way.

And for those who claim Marshall will never see a national championship. Thats fine, esp if I get to watch my Thundering Herd compete with like minded schools and occasionally play one of the so called elite programs. In the next few years Marshall has H/H with ECU, App State, Navy, VA Tech and games against Notre Dame and Penn State.

This is one of the main reasons I wanted App out of the SoCon, or as we called it the SmallCon, and FCS. Simply got tired of playing at home to 25K+ in a great atmosphere then going on the road to play in front of 5,000 fans (except GaSo) in mostly silent stadiums. I push moving up hard, really hard. A lot of my fellow App Fans who were against moving up at the time, citing the no more National Championship excuse, have all changed their tunes. The day we hosted Miami one hard head in particular came up to me and as he looked at all the students lining up an hour early to get in, said he never thought he'd see anything like this in Boone. Then said I just wanted you to know I'm now 100% in favor of the move. I get those types of confessions all the time now and don't know of a single App fan who regrets the move.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps what they should have done after the Dayton rule, is passed subsequent legislation that grandfathered any existing DI-AA school that offered no/low scholarships but would not permit any new DI-AA football programs to offer less than 90% of the scholarship max as well as prevented existing programs who met the scholarship limits to drop below them.

(06-30-2021 06:15 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Perhaps what they should have done after the Dayton rule, is passed subsequent legislation that grandfathered any existing DI-AA school that offered no/low scholarships but would not permit any new DI-AA football programs to offer less than 90% of the scholarship max as well as prevented existing programs who met the scholarship limits to drop below them.

why?

qui bono?

(06-30-2021 06:15 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Perhaps what they should have done after the Dayton rule, is passed subsequent legislation that grandfathered any existing DI-AA school that offered no/low scholarships but would not permit any new DI-AA football programs to offer less than 90% of the scholarship max as well as prevented existing programs who met the scholarship limits to drop below them.

The Dayton Rule was fine the way it is. You shouldn't be allowed to park a sport in DIII just because you don't want to invest in it and then have everything else DI.

Schools like Georgetown, Valparaiso and Davidson that were affected by the rule but are still sponsoring football today, would it really hurt their perception if they were to drop football today. I don't think so. All 3 schools spend less than 5% of their athletic budget on football. If you really don't want to invest in a program, why have it.

(06-30-2021 10:29 AM)HerdZoned Wrote:  

(06-30-2021 06:15 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Perhaps what they should have done after the Dayton rule, is passed subsequent legislation that grandfathered any existing DI-AA school that offered no/low scholarships but would not permit any new DI-AA football programs to offer less than 90% of the scholarship max as well as prevented existing programs who met the scholarship limits to drop below them.

The Dayton Rule was fine the way it is. You shouldn't be allowed to park a sport in DIII just because you don't want to invest in it and then have everything else DI.

Schools like Georgetown, Valparaiso and Davidson that were affected by the rule but are still sponsoring football today, would it really hurt their perception if they were to drop football today. I don't think so. All 3 schools spend less than 5% of their athletic budget on football. If you really don't want to invest in a program, why have it.

Because it's ok to have actual student athletes.

(06-30-2021 06:30 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(06-30-2021 06:15 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Perhaps what they should have done after the Dayton rule, is passed subsequent legislation that grandfathered any existing DI-AA school that offered no/low scholarships but would not permit any new DI-AA football programs to offer less than 90% of the scholarship max as well as prevented existing programs who met the scholarship limits to drop below them.

why?

qui bono?

Requiring any new additions to DI meet minimum scholarship requirements would have kept up the overall level of the subdivision, aside from any holdovers that were grandfathered in.

(06-30-2021 10:29 AM)HerdZoned Wrote:  Schools like Georgetown, Valparaiso and Davidson that were affected by the rule but are still sponsoring football today, would it really hurt their perception if they were to drop football today. I don't think so. All 3 schools spend less than 5% of their athletic budget on football. If you really don't want to invest in a program, why have it.

You could not choose three more disparate universities--one a small, regional school, one, a small liberal arts school, and one, a major research university. They each have very different athletic departments.

Football is the #2 sport by budget at Georgetown...but there are 30 sports teams, 29 of which share a roughly $24 million budget while men's basketball gets $15-17 million. Many reasons why, of course, but it makes zero sense to spend a third of the budget on football when they are in a no-win situation in the Patriot League in a subdivision with little or no revenue potential, and that there is no interest from other neighboring conferences.

(06-30-2021 01:04 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(06-30-2021 06:30 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(06-30-2021 06:15 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Perhaps what they should have done after the Dayton rule, is passed subsequent legislation that grandfathered any existing DI-AA school that offered no/low scholarships but would not permit any new DI-AA football programs to offer less than 90% of the scholarship max as well as prevented existing programs who met the scholarship limits to drop below them.

why?

qui bono?

Requiring any new additions to DI meet minimum scholarship requirements would have kept up the overall level of the subdivision, aside from any holdovers that were grandfathered in.

"The overall level of the subdivision" is just such a weird, weird thing to me. Think the idea of Presbyterian-Valpo sucks? Don't watch it!

Do fewer people watch the Iron Bowl because Louisiana-Monroe and New Mexico State are plodding along on a shoestring?

(06-30-2021 12:36 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  Because it's ok to have actual student athletes.

Do you call what Davidson or Valpo puts on the field most years athletic. They both regularly get beat by DII and DIII schools. Since 2010 Davidson has lost to Lenoir-Rhyne (3 times. DII), Catawba (2 times, DII) and Johnson C Smith (DII). In that time they have won 33 games with 18 of those coming in the last 3 years. In that same time frame Valpo has lost to Franklin (DIII), Saint Joseph's (IN) (3 times DII), Trueman State (2 times, DII) and the U. Charleston (DII). Also in that time frame they have won 26 games.

Thats an avg of 3 wins for Davidson a year and 2.4 for Valpo.

(06-30-2021 01:32 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(06-30-2021 10:29 AM)HerdZoned Wrote:  Schools like Georgetown, Valparaiso and Davidson that were affected by the rule but are still sponsoring football today, would it really hurt their perception if they were to drop football today. I don't think so. All 3 schools spend less than 5% of their athletic budget on football. If you really don't want to invest in a program, why have it.

You could not choose three more disparate universities--one a small, regional school, one, a small liberal arts school, and one, a major research university. They each have very different athletic departments.

Football is the #2 sport by budget at Georgetown...but there are 30 sports teams, 29 of which share a roughly $24 million budget while men's basketball gets $15-17 million. Many reasons why, of course, but it makes zero sense to spend a third of the budget on football when they are in a no-win situation in the Patriot League in a subdivision with little or no revenue potential, and that there is no interest from other neighboring conferences.

I welcome Georgetown's application for all-sports membership in the AAC including their football program moving up to the FBS level and playing at the new MLS stadium in DC.

(07-01-2021 12:11 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  I welcome Georgetown's application for all-sports membership in the AAC including their football program moving up to the FBS level and playing at the new MLS stadium in DC.

You may welcome it but a former Big East commissioner from the early 2000's dismissed it out of hand. The numbers don't add up.

The aforementioned Audi Field only seats 20,000. It would trail Charlotte and Coastal Carolina (and not counting the temporary facility at Hawaii) among the smallest in the subdivision.

(07-01-2021 12:58 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(07-01-2021 12:11 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  I welcome Georgetown's application for all-sports membership in the AAC including their football program moving up to the FBS level and playing at the new MLS stadium in DC.

You may welcome it but a former Big East commissioner from the early 2000's dismissed it out of hand. The numbers don't add up.

The aforementioned Audi Field only seats 20,000. It would trail Charlotte and Coastal Carolina (and not counting the temporary facility at Hawaii) among the smallest in the subdivision.

I seem to recall that the notion of Villanova playing football in the Big East (in a small MLS stadium on the other side of town) caused enough of a stir to send Pittsburgh and Syracuse out of the Big East.

(07-01-2021 01:08 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I seem to recall that the notion of Villanova playing football in the Big East (in a small MLS stadium on the other side of town) caused enough of a stir to send Pittsburgh and Syracuse out of the Big East.

Villanova had a trustees vote scheduled on a move to I-A and playing games at PPL (now Subaru) Park in Chester, PA, about 19 miles from the campus. Pittsburgh (which had competitive issues with Villanova over the years) announced their departure a few days before the scheduled vote, effectively scuttling the value of Villanova upgrading to take advantage of the Big East ESPN contract in discussion.

(06-29-2021 11:06 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(06-29-2021 10:47 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  DFW: so you want students who shouldn't be there on the football team?

That's not what I said. When the Patriot League allows recruits to sign at Bucknell and Fordham that cannot even be recruited by Georgetown, that's a competitive imbalance.

How many football players are walking in the door within one standard deviation of Georgetown's published SAT range of 1420-1560 that aren't already going somewhere else? A kid with an 1200 SAT has every opportunity to succeed...if he is recruitable.

My proposal: admit based on class rank, not SAT's. Top 20% of one's high school class should be a start.

The standards at all high schools are not equal. Both rank and SAT should be used (NEVER the SAT alone), as that was the purpose of the test - to be used in conjunction with grades, to allow students who did not go to elite prep schools to show that their academic abilities were just as good as those who did.

Is St. Thomas' long term FCS home expected to be the Pioneer League or are they looking to add scholarships after their transition?

(07-02-2021 08:36 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Is St. Thomas' long term FCS home expected to be the Pioneer League or are they looking to add scholarships after their transition?

I believe so. I’m pretty sure the Dakota schools are not interested in Summit football or letting St Thomas play in the MVFC.

Yes St. Thomas is in the Pioneer.

https://fbschedules.com/st-thomas-football-schedule/

(07-01-2021 03:04 PM)NJMark Wrote:  

(06-29-2021 11:06 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(06-29-2021 10:47 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  DFW: so you want students who shouldn't be there on the football team?

That's not what I said. When the Patriot League allows recruits to sign at Bucknell and Fordham that cannot even be recruited by Georgetown, that's a competitive imbalance.

How many football players are walking in the door within one standard deviation of Georgetown's published SAT range of 1420-1560 that aren't already going somewhere else? A kid with an 1200 SAT has every opportunity to succeed...if he is recruitable.

My proposal: admit based on class rank, not SAT's. Top 20% of one's high school class should be a start.

The standards at all high schools are not equal. Both rank and SAT should be used (NEVER the SAT alone), as that was the purpose of the test - to be used in conjunction with grades, to allow students who did not go to elite prep schools to show that their academic abilities were just as good as those who did.

Some private schools are not elite prep schools. I know because I went to a couple. There are some denominational schools out that are private but far from elite, yet some parents want to send their children there because they feel like it is a better atmosphere for them. And using rank or the SAT would be wrong for these students, who use a standardized test most of you probably have not heard of before, the CAT (California Achievement Test). Outside of the aforementioned schools, it's rare to see a CAT used.

For this reason, I actually prefer the ACT (American College Entrance Exam). It has a useful purpose, and everyone used to use it at one point or another. I have heard a lot of griping and bellyaching about the ACT, but I personally have no problem with it. It's the only way to really measure students across the board.

(06-30-2021 10:29 AM)HerdZoned Wrote:  

(06-30-2021 06:15 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Perhaps what they should have done after the Dayton rule, is passed subsequent legislation that grandfathered any existing DI-AA school that offered no/low scholarships but would not permit any new DI-AA football programs to offer less than 90% of the scholarship max as well as prevented existing programs who met the scholarship limits to drop below them.

The Dayton Rule was fine the way it is. You shouldn't be allowed to park a sport in DIII just because you don't want to invest in it and then have everything else DI.

Schools like Georgetown, Valparaiso and Davidson that were affected by the rule but are still sponsoring football today, would it really hurt their perception if they were to drop football today. I don't think so. All 3 schools spend less than 5% of their athletic budget on football. If you really don't want to invest in a program, why have it.

Football is such a different animal. I personally don't / didn't see the issue with having football at the D-II or III level if ALL other sports are in D-I.

(06-27-2021 01:14 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  

(06-24-2021 10:53 PM)HerdZoned Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 11:44 AM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 11:36 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 08:49 AM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  FCS is a combo of DI through DIII. When you have three conferences (Ivy, SWAC, MEAC) that don't send their champ to the playoffs, four conferences (Pioneer, NEC, Patriot, Ivy) with less than the full amount of scholarships, and a second championship inside the division you can expect a hot mess.

Almost 1/3 or so of the I-aa/FCS champions since its beginning have moved to FBS. Those dozen or so schools who actually have the ability to win a championship don't seem to care the playing field has reduced to redheaded step children.


Edit: However I still watch. Because football.

No - FCS is still DI. And it isn't a mess. And FCS produces a True National Championship - something App St will never play for again.

Simmer Donna.

FCS is DI but has active elements of DII (Patriot/NEC) and DIII (Ivy and Pioneer). There's two championships being played for by leagues classified as FCS. Hot. Mess.


App State fans wouldn't have the school move back to that classification for any reason. I was in the stands for the first bowl win and it was more exciting than my time in Chattanooga at both the 2nd or the 3rd FCS championship.

Almost anyone that was anything 25 years ago, is no longer IAA. App State, GA Southern, Troy, MT, WKU, Boise State, Marshall and even ULM. Just in those 8 schools accounts for 14 IAA National Titles with GA Southern (6), App State (3), Marshall (2), WKU (1), Boise State (1) and ULM (1). I guess if you want to you could add UMass and add another IAA title as they won the 1998 National Title.

There is no parity at the top of IAA like there was from the mid 80s to the mid 90s. As we speak there is probably only 4-6 programs that could legitimately contend and win a national championship.

IAA is a jumbled mess with those that fully fund their program like North Dakota State and JMU to those who only have football to stay in the conference because its required ie. VMI and Central Conn. State.

Then you have the Ivy, Pioneer, SWAC and MEAC that like to play by their own rules.

But the thing is there is probably less that 5 schools that could actually be IA and do it the right way.

And for those who claim Marshall will never see a national championship. Thats fine, esp if I get to watch my Thundering Herd compete with like minded schools and occasionally play one of the so called elite programs. In the next few years Marshall has H/H with ECU, App State, Navy, VA Tech and games against Notre Dame and Penn State.

This is one of the main reasons I wanted App out of the SoCon, or as we called it the SmallCon, and FCS. Simply got tired of playing at home to 25K+ in a great atmosphere then going on the road to play in front of 5,000 fans (except GaSo) in mostly silent stadiums.

Except ... many FBS schools play in front of 5,000 actual fans as well. It's really pretty common.