(05-11-2021 10:02 AM)Big Frog II Wrote:  Anything less than 8 is a waste of time.

Well, you could get all the P5 champs in that way. To me, that would be a major difference from right now.

Not that I would support that, but it would be a major difference.

(05-10-2021 12:41 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I believe six with P-5 locked in with one wildcard. That allows access to ND or the G-5. win-win.

Not really. Quite lame, actually. #17 USC would have automatic preference over Notre Dame, even if Notre Dame is ranked in the top 6 and beats USC in the regular season.

I wouldn't mind to consider to have the top 5 champions, if there is no distinction between P5 and G5....but, the P5 would never agree to that, so CFP 6 is dead upon arrival unless there are no automatic bids - ie, Straight Six.

(05-11-2021 12:12 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-10-2021 12:41 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I believe six with P-5 locked in with one wildcard. That allows access to ND or the G-5. win-win.

Not really. Quite lame, actually. #17 USC would have automatic preference over Notre Dame, even if Notre Dame is ranked in the top 6 and beats USC in the regular season.

I wouldn't mind to consider to have the top 5 champions, if there is no distinction between P5 and G5....but, the P5 would never agree to that, so CFP 6 is dead upon arrival unless there are no automatic bids - ie, Straight Six.

Yes, S6 would be much better than auto-bids.

(05-11-2021 12:12 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-10-2021 12:41 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I believe six with P-5 locked in with one wildcard. That allows access to ND or the G-5. win-win.

Not really. Quite lame, actually. #17 USC would have automatic preference over Notre Dame, even if Notre Dame is ranked in the top 6 and beats USC in the regular season.

I wouldn't mind to consider to have the top 5 champions, if there is no distinction between P5 and G5....but, the P5 would never agree to that, so CFP 6 is dead upon arrival unless there are no automatic bids - ie, Straight Six.

If the playoffs expand to six with P-5 locked and one wildcard, ND’s access (probability) to the playoffs would actually increase vis-a-vie the current 4 team structure. ND has made it to the playoffs as an undefeated independent and a 1-loss ACC member. In a six team format, 1-loss independent ND schedule probably makes the playoffs.

IMO, auto bids for the P5 will be the base requirement for any expansion to the CFP. There may be some performance floor for the P5 (e.g., maximum of 3 regular season losses), but it will be an exceptional scenario. The auto bids will help the autonomous conferences hype their regular season and championship games.

(05-11-2021 12:12 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-10-2021 12:41 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I believe six with P-5 locked in with one wildcard. That allows access to ND or the G-5. win-win.

Not really. Quite lame, actually. #17 USC would have automatic preference over Notre Dame, even if Notre Dame is ranked in the top 6 and beats USC in the regular season.

I wouldn't mind to consider to have the top 5 champions, if there is no distinction between P5 and G5....but, the P5 would never agree to that, so CFP 6 is dead upon arrival unless there are no automatic bids - ie, Straight Six.

Well the idea of the P5/A5 getting automatic bids is going to be a harder sell to the G5 and to its fans whether it's a 6 team playoff or an 8 team playoff. Even if the G5's are guaranteed one bid in an 8 team field I would still not be happy. Why should UCF, Houston, Boise State, etc, have to be the best "mid major" and all of the others only have to be the best in their conference? It's one thing to say the "power" conferences have more say in NCAA governing or even in bowl games. It's way bigger to say the Pac 12 is better than the AAC when it comes to the Playoff. We all know there's a "glass ceiling" in the Playoff when it comes to G5 teams but there's nothing in the actual rules that say otherwise. Once there is, Congress could threaten the NCAA if enough senators represent G5 schools negatively affected. I don't know every NCAA championship sport but I would guess that in most of the major ones (men's and women's basketball, women's volleyball, baseball) that most if not all conference champions receive automatic bids to the NCAA Tournament and that also includes FCS football. What kind of uproar would there be if the NCAA men's basketball tournament only gave automatic bids to half of the conferences even if there was a pathway to get in for the other conferences? And football is a bigger sport. They'd probably get away with it in field hockey because most people don't care about it. In football? I'm sure the senator of Idaho won't stand for it and if he has enough supporters they will do what they can to prevent the NCAA from a plan which favors certain teams and conferences over others.

(05-11-2021 12:47 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:12 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-10-2021 12:41 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I believe six with P-5 locked in with one wildcard. That allows access to ND or the G-5. win-win.

Not really. Quite lame, actually. #17 USC would have automatic preference over Notre Dame, even if Notre Dame is ranked in the top 6 and beats USC in the regular season.

I wouldn't mind to consider to have the top 5 champions, if there is no distinction between P5 and G5....but, the P5 would never agree to that, so CFP 6 is dead upon arrival unless there are no automatic bids - ie, Straight Six.

If the playoffs expand to six with P-5 locked and one wildcard, ND’s access (probability) to the playoffs would actually increase vis-a-vie the current 4 team structure. ND has made it to the playoffs as an undefeated independent and a 1-loss ACC member. In a six team format, 1-loss independent ND schedule probably makes the playoffs.

IMO, auto bids for the P5 will be the base requirement for any expansion to the CFP. There may be some performance floor for the P5 (e.g., maximum of 3 regular season losses), but it will be an exceptional scenario. The auto bids will help the autonomous conferences hype their regular season and championship games.

IMO, if there's a performance floor or any kind of exception, it's not an autobid.

The very need to talk about performance floors and the like is in my view indicative of the flaws in the autobid concept, namely that just because you win your conference doesn't mean you have performed better on the field than a team that didn't win its conference. This year, Oregon was 4-2 against a soft schedule and yet won the PAC. They in no way shape or form were one of the five best teams in the country and should not have gotten a playoff bid. But with these autobid schemes they would have.

Now of course the P5, and heck every conference, wants an autobid for its champ. But just because a conference wants something doesn't mean its a good idea. Autobids aren't.

(05-11-2021 10:45 AM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 10:02 AM)Big Frog II Wrote:  Anything less than 8 is a waste of time.

The number would have to be 9-10 teams in order to penalize the G5 champs for not playing any good teams all season.

Play-in game(s) would be on a Monday for example and then the winners would have to turn around in 3 or 4 days to play the top seeds. This will be a fair penalty for G5. If they can win both games in 3-4 days then there can be no complaints about their worthiness.

I’m not getting where you think the turn around would be so short. The day after the first Saturday in December (right after the CCGs) is when the field gets announced.

In a 12 team bracket you play the first round in mid-Dec (2 wks after the CCGs). That’s 13 days between games for any opening round team who played in a CCG.

New Year’s Day are your quarterfinals and again, you’re talking about 10-12 days in between.

(05-11-2021 10:42 AM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  I think it should be P5 champs but they have to meet a restrictive criteria, ex: 8-4 PAC team doesn't qualify for playoffs just because they won.

Anything that forces ND into a conference is another good step.

With only 6, I agree that there should be some criteria. I proposed Top 8. Too restrictive? Would have excluded #9 10-3 Washington one year.

I think with any expansion, you’d have to include the Top 4, so a team like Notre Dame doesn’t see their target shrink.

(05-11-2021 12:12 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-10-2021 12:41 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I believe six with P-5 locked in with one wildcard. That allows access to ND or the G-5. win-win.

Not really. Quite lame, actually. #17 USC would have automatic preference over Notre Dame, even if Notre Dame is ranked in the top 6 and beats USC in the regular season.

I wouldn't mind to consider to have the top 5 champions, if there is no distinction between P5 and G5....but, the P5 would never agree to that, so CFP 6 is dead upon arrival unless there are no automatic bids - ie, Straight Six.

I have zero sympathy for ND, if they get passed over for a weaker conference champion. They’ve had every opportunity to join a major conference but they’ve rebuffed every offer.

Truth be told, the original Big East would have been the ideal set up—swap Temple out for them and you get:

ND
BC-(rivalry)
Syracuse
Pitt-(rivalry)
Rutgers-(NYC exposure)
WVU
VT
Miami-(rivalry)

That’s only a 7 game commitment and would have left them wiggle room for Navy, USC, and some Big Ten schools.

Put ND in that league and I doubt the ACC could have raided it.

(05-11-2021 04:39 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:12 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-10-2021 12:41 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I believe six with P-5 locked in with one wildcard. That allows access to ND or the G-5. win-win.

Not really. Quite lame, actually. #17 USC would have automatic preference over Notre Dame, even if Notre Dame is ranked in the top 6 and beats USC in the regular season.

I wouldn't mind to consider to have the top 5 champions, if there is no distinction between P5 and G5....but, the P5 would never agree to that, so CFP 6 is dead upon arrival unless there are no automatic bids - ie, Straight Six.

I have zero sympathy for ND, if they get passed over for a weaker conference champion. They’ve had every opportunity to join a major conference but they’ve rebuffed every offer.

Truth be told, the original Big East would have been the ideal set up—swap Temple out for them and you get:

ND
BC-(rivalry)
Syracuse
Pitt-(rivalry)
Rutgers-(NYC exposure)
WVU
VT
Miami-(rivalry)

That’s only a 7 game commitment and would have left them wiggle room for Navy, USC, and some Big Ten schools.

Put ND in that league and I doubt the ACC could have raided it.

OK. Do the same analysis to compare #17 USC to a top-6 AAC champ like Cincinnati. That would be absolutely lame for USC to reach the CFP over Cincinnati.

(05-11-2021 04:39 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:12 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-10-2021 12:41 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I believe six with P-5 locked in with one wildcard. That allows access to ND or the G-5. win-win.

Not really. Quite lame, actually. #17 USC would have automatic preference over Notre Dame, even if Notre Dame is ranked in the top 6 and beats USC in the regular season.

I wouldn't mind to consider to have the top 5 champions, if there is no distinction between P5 and G5....but, the P5 would never agree to that, so CFP 6 is dead upon arrival unless there are no automatic bids - ie, Straight Six.

I have zero sympathy for ND, if they get passed over for a weaker conference champion. They’ve had every opportunity to join a major conference but they’ve rebuffed every offer.

Truth be told, the original Big East would have been the ideal set up—swap Temple out for them and you get:

ND
BC-(rivalry)
Syracuse
Pitt-(rivalry)
Rutgers-(NYC exposure)
WVU
VT
Miami-(rivalry)

That’s only a 7 game commitment and would have left them wiggle room for Navy, USC, and some Big Ten schools.

Put ND in that league and I doubt the ACC could have raided it.

Here’s what fans need to understand and I keep repeating since it seems to get lost all of the time: no one in power wants ND to “join a conference” because what that really means is that ND is joining the ACC. The thought of “forcing ND” to do anything is a complete fan-based wish that the university presidents don’t want any part of here.

Why on Earth would the Big Ten and SEC, who directly compete with the ACC in their respective regions, want to just gift the ACC with arguably the most valuable brand in college sports? The Big 2 conferences of the P5 would instantly become the Big 3. That’s what “forcing ND to join a conference” would entail. We just got a preview of that in this pandemic year where ND got into the CFP as the ACC runner-up.

I understand that many fans feel that ND receive special treatment, but the point is that the university presidents of the ACC’s competitors absolutely 100% would want ND to stay independent forever at this point. Any new playoff system will be designed to make ND quite happy with their independence status quo because that actually helps the Big Ten and SEC pretty directly (by keeping them out of the ACC full-time).

(05-11-2021 06:11 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 04:39 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:12 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-10-2021 12:41 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I believe six with P-5 locked in with one wildcard. That allows access to ND or the G-5. win-win.

Not really. Quite lame, actually. #17 USC would have automatic preference over Notre Dame, even if Notre Dame is ranked in the top 6 and beats USC in the regular season.

I wouldn't mind to consider to have the top 5 champions, if there is no distinction between P5 and G5....but, the P5 would never agree to that, so CFP 6 is dead upon arrival unless there are no automatic bids - ie, Straight Six.

I have zero sympathy for ND, if they get passed over for a weaker conference champion. They’ve had every opportunity to join a major conference but they’ve rebuffed every offer.

Truth be told, the original Big East would have been the ideal set up—swap Temple out for them and you get:

ND
BC-(rivalry)
Syracuse
Pitt-(rivalry)
Rutgers-(NYC exposure)
WVU
VT
Miami-(rivalry)

That’s only a 7 game commitment and would have left them wiggle room for Navy, USC, and some Big Ten schools.

Put ND in that league and I doubt the ACC could have raided it.

OK. Do the same analysis to compare #17 USC to a top-6 AAC champ like Cincinnati. That would be absolutely lame for USC to reach the CFP over Cincinnati.

This is a hypothetical without practical meaning. Based on 7 years of CFP experience, a G5 champion/team has never achieved a top 6 finish. In the unlikely instance when a G5 is in the top 6, it’s more likely that it will make the playoff. The G5 has a much better chance of making a 6 team, rather than a 4 team, playoff.

The real losers of P5 auto bids are strong teams from other P5 conferences...in 2016, Michigan gets bumped by Oklahoma; in 2020, Texas A&M gets bumped by Oregon. It’s the P2 (SEC and PAC) giving up slots to the B12/PAC.

(05-11-2021 12:58 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:47 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:12 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-10-2021 12:41 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I believe six with P-5 locked in with one wildcard. That allows access to ND or the G-5. win-win.

Not really. Quite lame, actually. #17 USC would have automatic preference over Notre Dame, even if Notre Dame is ranked in the top 6 and beats USC in the regular season.

I wouldn't mind to consider to have the top 5 champions, if there is no distinction between P5 and G5....but, the P5 would never agree to that, so CFP 6 is dead upon arrival unless there are no automatic bids - ie, Straight Six.

If the playoffs expand to six with P-5 locked and one wildcard, ND’s access (probability) to the playoffs would actually increase vis-a-vie the current 4 team structure. ND has made it to the playoffs as an undefeated independent and a 1-loss ACC member. In a six team format, 1-loss independent ND schedule probably makes the playoffs.

IMO, auto bids for the P5 will be the base requirement for any expansion to the CFP. There may be some performance floor for the P5 (e.g., maximum of 3 regular season losses), but it will be an exceptional scenario. The auto bids will help the autonomous conferences hype their regular season and championship games.

IMO, if there's a performance floor or any kind of exception, it's not an autobid.

The very need to talk about performance floors and the like is in my view indicative of the flaws in the autobid concept, namely that just because you win your conference doesn't mean you have performed better on the field than a team that didn't win its conference. This year, Oregon was 4-2 against a soft schedule and yet won the PAC. They in no way shape or form were one of the five best teams in the country and should not have gotten a playoff bid. But with these autobid schemes they would have.

Now of course the P5, and heck every conference, wants an autobid for its champ. But just because a conference wants something doesn't mean its a good idea. Autobids aren't.

Aren’t autobids pretty common for other sports? Division champs moves on to a playoff (sometime along with wildcards) for most sports I know of.

For college football, each team plays only 12 season games. To me, it’s not enough data to figure out the true ranking.

(05-11-2021 12:55 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:12 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-10-2021 12:41 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I believe six with P-5 locked in with one wildcard. That allows access to ND or the G-5. win-win.

Not really. Quite lame, actually. #17 USC would have automatic preference over Notre Dame, even if Notre Dame is ranked in the top 6 and beats USC in the regular season.

I wouldn't mind to consider to have the top 5 champions, if there is no distinction between P5 and G5....but, the P5 would never agree to that, so CFP 6 is dead upon arrival unless there are no automatic bids - ie, Straight Six.

Well the idea of the P5/A5 getting automatic bids is going to be a harder sell to the G5 and to its fans whether it's a 6 team playoff or an 8 team playoff. Even if the G5's are guaranteed one bid in an 8 team field I would still not be happy. Why should UCF, Houston, Boise State, etc, have to be the best "mid major" and all of the others only have to be the best in their conference? It's one thing to say the "power" conferences have more say in NCAA governing or even in bowl games. It's way bigger to say the Pac 12 is better than the AAC when it comes to the Playoff. We all know there's a "glass ceiling" in the Playoff when it comes to G5 teams but there's nothing in the actual rules that say otherwise. Once there is, Congress could threaten the NCAA if enough senators represent G5 schools negatively affected. I don't know every NCAA championship sport but I would guess that in most of the major ones (men's and women's basketball, women's volleyball, baseball) that most if not all conference champions receive automatic bids to the NCAA Tournament and that also includes FCS football. What kind of uproar would there be if the NCAA men's basketball tournament only gave automatic bids to half of the conferences even if there was a pathway to get in for the other conferences? And football is a bigger sport. They'd probably get away with it in field hockey because most people don't care about it. In football? I'm sure the senator of Idaho won't stand for it and if he has enough supporters they will do what they can to prevent the NCAA from a plan which favors certain teams and conferences over others.

The NCAA does not control the CFP, Congress isn’t going to do anything that negatively impacts flagship schools in P5 states, and there is no scenario where the AAC wouldn’t run backwards through a cornfield to get even slightly closer to an autobid. They do not deserve that as it is, nor would they ever win a 1-8 matchup, or get a second team in, but the world needs ditchdiggers.

(05-11-2021 07:02 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 04:39 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:12 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-10-2021 12:41 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I believe six with P-5 locked in with one wildcard. That allows access to ND or the G-5. win-win.

Not really. Quite lame, actually. #17 USC would have automatic preference over Notre Dame, even if Notre Dame is ranked in the top 6 and beats USC in the regular season.

I wouldn't mind to consider to have the top 5 champions, if there is no distinction between P5 and G5....but, the P5 would never agree to that, so CFP 6 is dead upon arrival unless there are no automatic bids - ie, Straight Six.

I have zero sympathy for ND, if they get passed over for a weaker conference champion. They’ve had every opportunity to join a major conference but they’ve rebuffed every offer.

Truth be told, the original Big East would have been the ideal set up—swap Temple out for them and you get:

ND
BC-(rivalry)
Syracuse
Pitt-(rivalry)
Rutgers-(NYC exposure)
WVU
VT
Miami-(rivalry)

That’s only a 7 game commitment and would have left them wiggle room for Navy, USC, and some Big Ten schools.

Put ND in that league and I doubt the ACC could have raided it.

Here’s what fans need to understand and I keep repeating since it seems to get lost all of the time: no one in power wants ND to “join a conference” because what that really means is that ND is joining the ACC. The thought of “forcing ND” to do anything is a complete fan-based wish that the university presidents don’t want any part of here.

Why on Earth would the Big Ten and SEC, who directly compete with the ACC in their respective regions, want to just gift the ACC with arguably the most valuable brand in college sports? The Big 2 conferences of the P5 would instantly become the Big 3. That’s what “forcing ND to join a conference” would entail. We just got a preview of that in this pandemic year where ND got into the CFP as the ACC runner-up.

I understand that many fans feel that ND receive special treatment, but the point is that the university presidents of the ACC’s competitors absolutely 100% would want ND to stay independent forever at this point. Any new playoff system will be designed to make ND quite happy with their independence status quo because that actually helps the Big Ten and SEC pretty directly (by keeping them out of the ACC full-time).

Yes, which is why while I have criticized ND for their deal with the AAC, as I think it overall favors the ACC, I do agree that one thing it did was protect ND independence by providing a kind of "poison pill" for the SEC and B1G to have to swallow if they want to force ND in to a conference.

ND was pressured, primarily by the B1G, for much of the 2000s, about joining. The ACC deal has alleviated that pressure by making it a formal reality that if ND is forced to join a conference by playoff structures, it will join the ACC. And as you say, the B1G doesn't want that. It has also given the Irish added power over the kind of playoff structure that is implemented, because ND has made it clear that reasonable access to the playoffs is what allows it to remain independent.

And because the SEC doesn't want ND joining the ACC either, it in effect creates an ally for Notre Dame in preserving their independence from that powerful source as well. And as you note, if anything, the 2020 experience, with ND giving the ACC two playoff teams, and the ACC title game outshining the SEC and B1G title games, was a clear warning shot reminder to those conferences of what a strengthened ACC could look like with ND in the fold.

(05-11-2021 08:49 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:58 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:47 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:12 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-10-2021 12:41 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I believe six with P-5 locked in with one wildcard. That allows access to ND or the G-5. win-win.

Not really. Quite lame, actually. #17 USC would have automatic preference over Notre Dame, even if Notre Dame is ranked in the top 6 and beats USC in the regular season.

I wouldn't mind to consider to have the top 5 champions, if there is no distinction between P5 and G5....but, the P5 would never agree to that, so CFP 6 is dead upon arrival unless there are no automatic bids - ie, Straight Six.

If the playoffs expand to six with P-5 locked and one wildcard, ND’s access (probability) to the playoffs would actually increase vis-a-vie the current 4 team structure. ND has made it to the playoffs as an undefeated independent and a 1-loss ACC member. In a six team format, 1-loss independent ND schedule probably makes the playoffs.

IMO, auto bids for the P5 will be the base requirement for any expansion to the CFP. There may be some performance floor for the P5 (e.g., maximum of 3 regular season losses), but it will be an exceptional scenario. The auto bids will help the autonomous conferences hype their regular season and championship games.

IMO, if there's a performance floor or any kind of exception, it's not an autobid.

The very need to talk about performance floors and the like is in my view indicative of the flaws in the autobid concept, namely that just because you win your conference doesn't mean you have performed better on the field than a team that didn't win its conference. This year, Oregon was 4-2 against a soft schedule and yet won the PAC. They in no way shape or form were one of the five best teams in the country and should not have gotten a playoff bid. But with these autobid schemes they would have.

Now of course the P5, and heck every conference, wants an autobid for its champ. But just because a conference wants something doesn't mean its a good idea. Autobids aren't.

Aren’t autobids pretty common for other sports? Division champs moves on to a playoff (sometime along with wildcards) for most sports I know of.

For college football, each team plays only 12 season games. To me, it’s not enough data to figure out the true ranking.

Yes, autobids are common in other sports. But in college at least, so too are lots of at-large bids. This means that there isn't much competitive damage done by having a weak team win a conference and steal a bid. E.g., in NCAA hoops and baseball, a weak .500 level team might catch fire and win their conference tournament, thus taking an autobid. But because there are 30+ at-large bids, basically all the better teams that didn't win their conferences get in anyway so no harm done. In contrast, in all the playoff schemes I have seen, such as 5-1-2, there will be so few playoff spots that this can't be the case.

As for your point about the schedule, I agree that playoffs are needed to know the true ranking, but I disagree that conference *auto* bids are a good way to choose the participants. Winning your conference only means you won that conference by the rules it established. It doesn't tell us at all about how you compare to teams in other conferences, and it doesn't even tell us that you are the best team in your conference, because in college football, unlike in the NFL, OOC games do not count towards winning the conference. That means that team X could go 7-5 against a soft schedule while team Y goes 11-1 vs a tougher schedule and yet team X could win their conference and get the autobid while Y is shut out. That can't happen in the NFL.

Also, and let's face it, despite the fact that there are 130 FBS teams and most don't play each other, it nevertheless seems to be that the various major ranking schemes like the human polls and CFP "get it right" the vast majority of the time. This isn't rocket science. I don't need to see an Ohio State team loaded with NFL talent play a Fresno State team to know the former is better. Now Ohio State and Clemson? Yes, we do need to see that, and the CFP usually allows us to. The CFP, for all its flaws, has in every single year produced a champ that the human polls and computers have agreed was the best team.

I have no problem with factoring in a conference title when figuring out who should be in the playoffs. It's an achievement, one worth noting, and the team achieving it deserves their podium confetti, the players a ring, and the school a trophy for the trophy case. But to me, it should not override everything else and mean you automatically get in. It just isn't that significant enough of an achievement to warrant that.

(05-12-2021 07:56 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 07:02 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 04:39 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:12 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-10-2021 12:41 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I believe six with P-5 locked in with one wildcard. That allows access to ND or the G-5. win-win.

Not really. Quite lame, actually. #17 USC would have automatic preference over Notre Dame, even if Notre Dame is ranked in the top 6 and beats USC in the regular season.

I wouldn't mind to consider to have the top 5 champions, if there is no distinction between P5 and G5....but, the P5 would never agree to that, so CFP 6 is dead upon arrival unless there are no automatic bids - ie, Straight Six.

I have zero sympathy for ND, if they get passed over for a weaker conference champion. They’ve had every opportunity to join a major conference but they’ve rebuffed every offer.

Truth be told, the original Big East would have been the ideal set up—swap Temple out for them and you get:

ND
BC-(rivalry)
Syracuse
Pitt-(rivalry)
Rutgers-(NYC exposure)
WVU
VT
Miami-(rivalry)

That’s only a 7 game commitment and would have left them wiggle room for Navy, USC, and some Big Ten schools.

Put ND in that league and I doubt the ACC could have raided it.

Here’s what fans need to understand and I keep repeating since it seems to get lost all of the time: no one in power wants ND to “join a conference” because what that really means is that ND is joining the ACC. The thought of “forcing ND” to do anything is a complete fan-based wish that the university presidents don’t want any part of here.

Why on Earth would the Big Ten and SEC, who directly compete with the ACC in their respective regions, want to just gift the ACC with arguably the most valuable brand in college sports? The Big 2 conferences of the P5 would instantly become the Big 3. That’s what “forcing ND to join a conference” would entail. We just got a preview of that in this pandemic year where ND got into the CFP as the ACC runner-up.

I understand that many fans feel that ND receive special treatment, but the point is that the university presidents of the ACC’s competitors absolutely 100% would want ND to stay independent forever at this point. Any new playoff system will be designed to make ND quite happy with their independence status quo because that actually helps the Big Ten and SEC pretty directly (by keeping them out of the ACC full-time).

Yes, which is why while I have criticized ND for their deal with the AAC, as I think it overall favors the ACC, I do agree that one thing it did was protect ND independence by providing a kind of "poison pill" for the SEC and B1G to have to swallow if they want to force ND in to a conference.

ND was pressured, primarily by the B1G, for much of the 2000s, about joining. The ACC deal has alleviated that pressure by making it a formal reality that if ND is forced to join a conference by playoff structures, it will join the ACC. And as you say, the B1G doesn't want that. It has also given the Irish added power over the kind of playoff structure that is implemented, because ND has made it clear that reasonable access to the playoffs is what allows it to remain independent.

And because the SEC doesn't want ND joining the ACC either, it in effect creates an ally for Notre Dame in preserving their independence from that powerful source as well. And as you note, if anything, the 2020 experience, with ND giving the ACC two playoff teams, and the ACC title game outshining the SEC and B1G title games, was a clear warning shot reminder to those conferences of what a strengthened ACC could look like with ND in the fold.

“Poison pill” is a GREAT way of describing the ND-ACC deal. This is ND directly saying, “If you force us into joining a conference, it’s going to be the ACC and not your league.” That pretty much eliminated all incentives for the Big Ten to pressure ND (as the B1G used to think that ND would join them instead of a competitor). In fact, the Big Ten has been nicer than ever with ND by inviting them to play in their hockey league. The Big Ten knows that the courtship with ND is over (unlike in 2010), so they’d much rather have ND be independent forever compared to joining the ACC.

The SEC impact is more indirect, but it would be foolish to think that they would do anything to encourage ND to join the ACC full-time, either. The fans might not claim to care (despite seeing that this past year where ND played in the ACC resulted in the ACC getting 2 playoff teams instead of the SEC) , but the university presidents aren’t stupid. They’d certainly be worried if Texas or Ohio State joined the ACC and ND is as big of a brand as either of them.

Like I’ve said, ND in the ACC makes the ACC into a league that has the same level of power with the Big Ten and SEC, which is something that neither the Big Ten nor SEC want for the long-term.

(05-12-2021 08:13 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Why on Earth would the Big Ten and SEC, who directly compete with the ACC in their respective regions, want to just gift the ACC with arguably the most valuable brand in college sports? The Big 2 conferences of the P5 would instantly become the Big 3. That’s what “forcing ND to join a conference” would entail. We just got a preview of that in this pandemic year where ND got into the CFP as the ACC runner-up.

I understand that many fans feel that ND receive special treatment, but the point is that the university presidents of the ACC’s competitors absolutely 100% would want ND to stay independent forever at this point. Any new playoff system will be designed to make ND quite happy with their independence status quo because that actually helps the Big Ten and SEC pretty directly (by keeping them out of the ACC full-time).

Well "forever" is until the end of the ACC's current GOR deal (2037). After that, all bets are off.

(05-12-2021 08:25 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(05-12-2021 08:13 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Why on Earth would the Big Ten and SEC, who directly compete with the ACC in their respective regions, want to just gift the ACC with arguably the most valuable brand in college sports? The Big 2 conferences of the P5 would instantly become the Big 3. That’s what “forcing ND to join a conference” would entail. We just got a preview of that in this pandemic year where ND got into the CFP as the ACC runner-up.

I understand that many fans feel that ND receive special treatment, but the point is that the university presidents of the ACC’s competitors absolutely 100% would want ND to stay independent forever at this point. Any new playoff system will be designed to make ND quite happy with their independence status quo because that actually helps the Big Ten and SEC pretty directly (by keeping them out of the ACC full-time).

Well "forever" is until the end of the ACC's current GOR deal (2037). After that, all bets are off.

Yes, but that's 16 years from now, a long time in college athletics. Heck, 16 years ago, Charlie Weis hadn't yet coached his first game at Notre Dame, Nick Saban hadn't coaches his first game with the Miami Dolphins, and if you had told anyone that the next two presidents would be Barrack Obama, who had been a senator for less than three months, and Donald Trump, you would have been sent immediately to a nut house. That was 11 national championships ago for the SEC.

Georgia's athletic budget that year was $44 million. Even adjusted to 2021 dollars, that's less than UCF's was this past year.

The PAC media deal with ABC/ESPN paid it $18 million in 2005 - for the whole conference, not per school.

A long time indeed.

(05-11-2021 07:37 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 06:11 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 04:39 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:12 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-10-2021 12:41 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I believe six with P-5 locked in with one wildcard. That allows access to ND or the G-5. win-win.

Not really. Quite lame, actually. #17 USC would have automatic preference over Notre Dame, even if Notre Dame is ranked in the top 6 and beats USC in the regular season.

I wouldn't mind to consider to have the top 5 champions, if there is no distinction between P5 and G5....but, the P5 would never agree to that, so CFP 6 is dead upon arrival unless there are no automatic bids - ie, Straight Six.

I have zero sympathy for ND, if they get passed over for a weaker conference champion. They’ve had every opportunity to join a major conference but they’ve rebuffed every offer.

Truth be told, the original Big East would have been the ideal set up—swap Temple out for them and you get:

ND
BC-(rivalry)
Syracuse
Pitt-(rivalry)
Rutgers-(NYC exposure)
WVU
VT
Miami-(rivalry)

That’s only a 7 game commitment and would have left them wiggle room for Navy, USC, and some Big Ten schools.

Put ND in that league and I doubt the ACC could have raided it.

OK. Do the same analysis to compare #17 USC to a top-6 AAC champ like Cincinnati. That would be absolutely lame for USC to reach the CFP over Cincinnati.

This is a hypothetical without practical meaning. Based on 7 years of CFP experience, a G5 champion/team has never achieved a top 6 finish. In the unlikely instance when a G5 is in the top 6, it’s more likely that it will make the playoff. The G5 has a much better chance of making a 6 team, rather than a 4 team, playoff.

The real losers of P5 auto bids are strong teams from other P5 conferences...in 2016, Michigan gets bumped by Oklahoma; in 2020, Texas A&M gets bumped by Oregon. It’s the P2 (SEC and PAC) giving up slots to the B12/PAC.

That wasn't the issue raised. The issue is that, in a situation where a #17 ranked P5 champ gets a handout CFP spot in a 6-team format, they pass over 1-2 better conference champs, even if they are ranked in the top 10, even in a ranking system that is built to undervalue them.

The hypothetical scenario raised is that the 5th best team with the 8th best ranking is left out, and the 30th best team with the 17th best ranking gets in instead.