(02-16-2021 06:23 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 06:03 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  IMO, that expansion process was dysfunctional because Swofford was going way out of the footprint (both geography and culture) with all three proposed adds. He was singularly focused on TV markets, not recognizing the impact to conference cohesion and long-term football trends.

Everybody did that after Swofford! In retrospect, it seems he spearheaded that movement. See Missouri to the SEC and Maryland/Rutgers to the Big 10.

Culturally, I don't think there was a viable #3 unless you wanted to associate with West Virginia or ECU. A Louisville addition in 2004 would have been interesting, but definitely out of left field. Navy would have been compelling as a football affiliate and allowed the basketball conference a 20-game round robin.

As far as the targets went, I have to think he was implementing the hammer and anvil tactic by going for the northern outpost and coming down southward to control the Atlantic Coast.

(02-16-2021 06:03 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  He was blindsided by the politics, left BC & Syracuse hanging and it left the ACC with a bad reputation.

To whom? Or better yet, to whom that matters?

Culturally? This isn't 1963 anymore. If you haven't noticed, a fair amount of carpetbaggers have moved to Cary, Mooresville, Asheville, Greenville, SC, etc...The scalawags have gotten rich off their buddies.

The South is changing. Heck many of youse guys are saying Soda now and shopping at Wegmans in the RDU.

The ACC's plan was to have a good claim on the whole eastern seaboard. Maryland decided to screw that up ..save for eastern/central PA, NJ and Baltimore/DC the area is ACC. NYC area is still everybody's and nobody's.

BTW, Nathan's, Sabretts, Sahlens, Zweigles and Hofmann's are so much better than those Bright Leaf fake red sticks.

I'll give you BBQ.... NC is one of my favorite BBQ areas.

The ACC never had a shot at becoming the country's "Southern" football conference - that title has been sewn up for years.

What the ACC can become - must become in order to survive - is the "Eastern" conference. Too many older guys don't seem to get this yet, but clearly ESPN does.

SEC = South
ACC = East
B1G = North
Pac = West
XII = meat

(02-17-2021 05:44 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 12:26 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 07:43 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 07:34 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 06:34 PM)Statefan Wrote:  The Tidewater South is one of America's smallest cultural regions. Only Dutch NY and New England are smaller. VT, SC, Florida and Georgia were the only other schools with any semblance of this culture. Anything recently associated with Steve Spurier would be anathma to UNC. Even without Spurrier, the Gamecocks are an acquired taste and have been since the Nullification Crisis in the 1830's.

What’s the culture at ECU? Genuinely interested in your take.

Mix of tidewater and southern. Deference to authority remains in Greenville. Although the more recent set of yahoos would have Leo Jenkins spinning in his grave.

I looked him up and he’s an interesting character. I suppose the older people I knew must have been familiar with him, hence the UNC-Greenville comments I recall.

Some old heads I know/knew believe William & Mary and Richmond should be in the ACC in place of BC and Miami (and subsequent additions). I understand that from a cultural standpoint..well at least during their era. Or at least an academic affiliation.

Yep, but if you were to go back another few years, that perfect "fit" would be Davidson College which was a mainstay on Carolina's schedule until WWII.
Davidson (all male, limited to 1,000 students until the 70's) is where the really smart kids went before they went on to law school, medical school, or to seminary at Union or Princeton to become Presbyterian Ministers.

Good point. I forgot about Davidson, part of the Big Five.

(02-17-2021 10:12 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  The ACC never had a shot at becoming the country's "Southern" football conference - that title has been sewn up for years.

What the ACC can become - must become in order to survive - is the "Eastern" conference. Too many older guys don't seem to get this yet, but clearly ESPN does.

SEC = South
ACC = East
B1G = North
Pac = West
XII = meat

I would say B1G = Midwest (plus some northeast). Northeast doesn’t have enough fan base to support its own conference. The OBE tried and failed, and the ACC and B1G now fight for the territory.

(02-17-2021 10:12 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  The ACC never had a shot at becoming the country's "Southern" football conference - that title has been sewn up for years.

What the ACC can become - must become in order to survive - is the "Eastern" conference. Too many older guys don't seem to get this yet, but clearly ESPN does.

SEC = South
ACC = East
B1G = North
Pac = West
XII = meat

Amen!

Or stay the (men's) basketball conference.

Maybe those year's of chasing football's caught up to the ACC. Now Duke won't make the tournament, North Carolina's looking at a double digit seed, and right now Alabama has a higher seed than any ACC team according to last Saturday's NCAA Bracket Preview. You know you suck in basketball when the SEC's better than you (and that's not even including Kentucky).

(02-17-2021 10:12 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  The ACC never had a shot at becoming the country's "Southern" football conference - that title has been sewn up for years.

What the ACC can become - must become in order to survive - is the "Eastern" conference. Too many older guys don't seem to get this yet, but clearly ESPN does.

SEC = South
ACC = East
B1G = North
Pac = West
XII = meat

It is true that this is how ESPN sees things. However, it is not how the public views them. The public sees college athletics as mostly irrelevant to their lives on the two coasts and everywhere in between views them as an integral part of their lives. This is true to a degree historically in that agricultural and veterinary schools were essential to the farmers of those states. The coasts have always been places of industry because the sea offered a cheaper means of transportation before roads than overland travel and because they of course had natural ports. The focus on the coasts has always been industry because if you locate the industry nearest to the transportation hubs (even the Great Lakes) then its not only easier to ship, but cheaper because you are in the places of destination that both receive raw materials and ship finished product again cutting overhead. Entertainment in industrial areas is always more cosmopolitan in nature.

Tobacco Road was a hybrid of the agriculture and industry and on the coast. Mutual dependence between the people, their agriculture & vet school, and their law and medical school, and their governments built the states and the way of life between the coasts. The universities were the center of culture and life within those states in ways they never were on the coasts. It's why it's the states in between the coasts that are more religious than those on the coasts. Faith institutions were another part of the support web of community. And this was grass roots in nature. Church bells had a thicker and thinner side to produce different pitch's in the tone of their ring. Early disaster relief efforts, all volunteer from the community, listened to the bell to know where to assemble for a fire, flood, or some other emergency. So cohesiveness existed in what were then the rural states in between the coasts.

What we see today in support of college athletics is more than just people without a professional team. Birmingham can't support a pro team because the college allegiances are so strong. In most places its the other way around. But those ties are literally approaching being a couple of centuries old.

So Mark the people see the situation differently whether they even recognize it or not. College sports in the heartland will always be stronger and better followed than they are on the coasts. It's history and culture, and it is ingrained in the children. Saturday dove shoots in Alabama saw every hunter with a transistor radio and an ear plug so they could listen to the games. They quit hunting when every game was televised. College football availability changed lifetime habits built around radio broadcasts. The industry I was in saw a precipitous drop in sales once OU/UGA and ESPN resulted in around the clock college games on a Saturday instead of the one on ABC. It slowed golf, stopped tennis, ended dove hunts, and vastly slowed the sell of shotguns and dove loads. I'm glad college football wasn't played on Sunday because it may have closed the churches when almost every game was televised one way or the other.

On the coasts college sports is one of many interests. In between the two coasts it is a way of life and religion rolled into one. This is why the ACC and PAC will never surpass the Big 10, Big 12, and SEC. It's not a fault of the schools, it is the culture of the states in which they reside. You are loved, but not beloved. You are relevant, but not central. And you are an event among many instead of the event. And therein lies the difference.

(02-17-2021 09:42 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  The South is changing. Heck many of youse guys are saying Soda now and shopping at Wegmans in the RDU.

There have always been people in the South that say “soda”, in addition to “Coke”. What you don’t hear is “pop”.

And thanks for reminding me that people are moving here. It’s better for big business, so more people are moving. Eventually anti-business people who move here will take over and then businesses will move elsewhere. The cycle continues.

(02-17-2021 10:53 AM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 10:12 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  The ACC never had a shot at becoming the country's "Southern" football conference - that title has been sewn up for years.

What the ACC can become - must become in order to survive - is the "Eastern" conference. Too many older guys don't seem to get this yet, but clearly ESPN does.

SEC = South
ACC = East
B1G = North
Pac = West
XII = meat

I would say B1G = Midwest (plus some northeast). Northeast doesn’t have enough fan base to support its own conference. The OBE tried and failed, and the ACC and B1G now fight for the territory.

Actually, the Old BE tried and succeeded until it became unstable. That football conference was actually thriving until it was raided. It did not fail because there wasnt enough fans. It was still doing well even after losing Miami, VT and BC. I believe that the BE was neck and neck with the ACC average attendance in fb. It failed because of being raided so much and then being backfilled with lessor accomplished programs which made the league so unstable that when the BCS was moving to a Power 5, everyone was looking for a life raft.

(02-17-2021 12:10 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 10:53 AM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 10:12 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  The ACC never had a shot at becoming the country's "Southern" football conference - that title has been sewn up for years.

What the ACC can become - must become in order to survive - is the "Eastern" conference. Too many older guys don't seem to get this yet, but clearly ESPN does.

SEC = South
ACC = East
B1G = North
Pac = West
XII = meat

I would say B1G = Midwest (plus some northeast). Northeast doesn’t have enough fan base to support its own conference. The OBE tried and failed, and the ACC and B1G now fight for the territory.

Actually, the Old BE tried and succeeded until it became unstable. That football conference was actually thriving until it was raided. It did not fail because there wasnt enough fans. It failed because of being raided so much and then being backfilled with lessor accomplished programs which made the league so unstable that when the BCS was moving to a Power 5, everyone was looking for a life raft.

Agreed, but increasing TV $$ would have killed it without Penn State. The BE was short on national Elite FB schools.

(02-17-2021 12:30 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 12:10 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 10:53 AM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 10:12 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  The ACC never had a shot at becoming the country's "Southern" football conference - that title has been sewn up for years.

What the ACC can become - must become in order to survive - is the "Eastern" conference. Too many older guys don't seem to get this yet, but clearly ESPN does.

SEC = South
ACC = East
B1G = North
Pac = West
XII = meat

I would say B1G = Midwest (plus some northeast). Northeast doesn’t have enough fan base to support its own conference. The OBE tried and failed, and the ACC and B1G now fight for the territory.

Actually, the Old BE tried and succeeded until it became unstable. That football conference was actually thriving until it was raided. It did not fail because there wasnt enough fans. It failed because of being raided so much and then being backfilled with lessor accomplished programs which made the league so unstable that when the BCS was moving to a Power 5, everyone was looking for a life raft.

Agreed, but increasing TV $$ would have killed it without Penn State. The BE was short on national Elite FB schools.

Thats possible. But it didnt fail because of lack of fanbases. Thats the only point I was making

(02-17-2021 12:44 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 12:30 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 12:10 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 10:53 AM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 10:12 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  The ACC never had a shot at becoming the country's "Southern" football conference - that title has been sewn up for years.

What the ACC can become - must become in order to survive - is the "Eastern" conference. Too many older guys don't seem to get this yet, but clearly ESPN does.

SEC = South
ACC = East
B1G = North
Pac = West
XII = meat

I would say B1G = Midwest (plus some northeast). Northeast doesn’t have enough fan base to support its own conference. The OBE tried and failed, and the ACC and B1G now fight for the territory.

Actually, the Old BE tried and succeeded until it became unstable. That football conference was actually thriving until it was raided. It did not fail because there wasnt enough fans. It failed because of being raided so much and then being backfilled with lessor accomplished programs which made the league so unstable that when the BCS was moving to a Power 5, everyone was looking for a life raft.

Agreed, but increasing TV $$ would have killed it without Penn State. The BE was short on national Elite FB schools.

Thats possible. But it didnt fail because of lack of fanbases. Thats the only point I was making

I guess I should have been clear. The Northeast doesn’t have a fan base to support its own conference in the mega conference era. The OBE had only 8 football teams and didn’t/couldn’t expand further.

I liked the original BE football by the way. Miami was relevant. VT-WVU rivalry was fun to watch.

(02-17-2021 10:59 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 09:42 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  The South is changing. Heck many of youse guys are saying Soda now and shopping at Wegmans in the RDU.

There have always been people in the South that say “soda”, in addition to “Coke”. What you don’t hear is “pop”.

And thanks for reminding me that people are moving here. It’s better for big business, so more people are moving. Eventually anti-business people who move here will take over and then businesses will move elsewhere. The cycle continues.

It is already happening, my new community is full of come here transplants (me included but I/m a quarterback-moved only 4 hours north from Tampa Bay and not 8 hours north to NC/SC to be called a halfback). The good news is they raise the property values (for now). The bad news is many want to bring the same big government, nanny state policies to NE FL and the net effect is more taxes and takers of free sh!t.

(02-16-2021 07:44 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 06:55 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 06:23 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 06:03 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  IMO, that expansion process was dysfunctional because Swofford was going way out of the footprint (both geography and culture) with all three proposed adds. He was singularly focused on TV markets, not recognizing the impact to conference cohesion and long-term football trends.

Everybody did that after Swofford! In retrospect, it seems he spearheaded that movement. See Missouri to the SEC and Maryland/Rutgers to the Big 10.

Culturally, I don't think there was a viable #3 unless you wanted to associate with West Virginia or ECU. A Louisville addition in 2004 would have been interesting, but definitely out of left field. Navy would have been compelling as a football affiliate and allowed the basketball conference a 20-game round robin.

As far as the targets went, I have to think he was implementing the hammer and anvil tactic by going for the northern outpost and coming down southward to control the Atlantic Coast.

(02-16-2021 06:03 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  He was blindsided by the politics, left BC & Syracuse hanging and it left the ACC with a bad reputation.

To whom? Or better yet, to whom that matters?

Agree that all conferences learned their lessons from 2003. Not just the SEC and B10, but also the ACC’s subsequent expansion with Pitt & Syracuse.

The bad reputation was a reference to allowing politicians to get involved and the lawsuit. I recognize that the CT attorney general was just seeking to make a name for himself, but you don’t give shysters those easy opportunities.

With regards to the third team, it was going to be a school that was also affiliated with the Big East. The specific school is not the concern, it was the process.

How did the ACC allow Blumenthal or Warner to get involved? Governor Warner could do what he damn well pleased since he appoints VT's and UVa's Board.

I have to say the very construction of your sentences is odd for a long time conference member. You write as if you are really a Georgetown or Villanova fan and only recently came to know something about the Cavaliers.

The Boards of FSU, GT, Louisville, UNC, NCSU, VT, and UVa are all appointed by political creatures - a combination of Governors, and Legislative entities. They are not self-perpetuating. WF, ND, Miami, Syracuse, Duke, BC, and Pitt (to a lesser degree 2/3 of the appointees) have self perpetuating boards and can act as private entities. For the 7 publics, every breath has a political ramification. In NC, Duke and WF are also very sensitive to anything the NC General Assembly or the Governor wants because of the nature of tax breaks that their hospitals, hotels, and golf courses get.

If you want to get crushed in NC, SC, or Va, get in between one of those States and an economic development deal and you will be ground to pulp. Those educational entities are not there so much to educate as they are there to spread economic development.

Statefan,

The ACC allowed politicians to get overly-involved by having an expansion process that wasn’t well vetted nor well managed. Commissioners and conferences in all geographies have to deal with politicians, ptb and oligarchs. From comments on this board, the old BE and old B12 appear to have had even worse strife than the ACC. Commissioners could do their homework to address internal stakeholder interests before embarking on major decisions...prevent or mitigate the opportunity for political interference. For example, I believe that Casteen and/or Warner outmaneuvered Swofford (not that I’m not complaining about the result...because the Goblers were also my preference and should have always been included in the ACC). College athletics has become big business and we need a commissioner who is competent...not an errand-boy for ptb.

FWIW - I now live in Philly (and enjoy live Penn/StJoes/Nova basketball...partly because it’s closer than any ACC venue). Your obsession with personal backgrounds is odd. You do understand that just because I went to UVA and have passionately followed the ACC for the past half century, doesn’t mean that I have to fit a stereotype?

(02-17-2021 03:20 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 07:44 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 06:55 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 06:23 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 06:03 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  IMO, that expansion process was dysfunctional because Swofford was going way out of the footprint (both geography and culture) with all three proposed adds. He was singularly focused on TV markets, not recognizing the impact to conference cohesion and long-term football trends.

Everybody did that after Swofford! In retrospect, it seems he spearheaded that movement. See Missouri to the SEC and Maryland/Rutgers to the Big 10.

Culturally, I don't think there was a viable #3 unless you wanted to associate with West Virginia or ECU. A Louisville addition in 2004 would have been interesting, but definitely out of left field. Navy would have been compelling as a football affiliate and allowed the basketball conference a 20-game round robin.

As far as the targets went, I have to think he was implementing the hammer and anvil tactic by going for the northern outpost and coming down southward to control the Atlantic Coast.

(02-16-2021 06:03 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  He was blindsided by the politics, left BC & Syracuse hanging and it left the ACC with a bad reputation.

To whom? Or better yet, to whom that matters?

Agree that all conferences learned their lessons from 2003. Not just the SEC and B10, but also the ACC’s subsequent expansion with Pitt & Syracuse.

The bad reputation was a reference to allowing politicians to get involved and the lawsuit. I recognize that the CT attorney general was just seeking to make a name for himself, but you don’t give shysters those easy opportunities.

With regards to the third team, it was going to be a school that was also affiliated with the Big East. The specific school is not the concern, it was the process.

How did the ACC allow Blumenthal or Warner to get involved? Governor Warner could do what he damn well pleased since he appoints VT's and UVa's Board.

I have to say the very construction of your sentences is odd for a long time conference member. You write as if you are really a Georgetown or Villanova fan and only recently came to know something about the Cavaliers.

The Boards of FSU, GT, Louisville, UNC, NCSU, VT, and UVa are all appointed by political creatures - a combination of Governors, and Legislative entities. They are not self-perpetuating. WF, ND, Miami, Syracuse, Duke, BC, and Pitt (to a lesser degree 2/3 of the appointees) have self perpetuating boards and can act as private entities. For the 7 publics, every breath has a political ramification. In NC, Duke and WF are also very sensitive to anything the NC General Assembly or the Governor wants because of the nature of tax breaks that their hospitals, hotels, and golf courses get.

If you want to get crushed in NC, SC, or Va, get in between one of those States and an economic development deal and you will be ground to pulp. Those educational entities are not there so much to educate as they are there to spread economic development.

Statefan,

The ACC allowed politicians to get overly-involved by having an expansion process that wasn’t well vetted nor well managed. Commissioners and conferences in all geographies have to deal with politicians, ptb and oligarchs. From comments on this board, the old BE and old B12 appear to have had even worse strife than the ACC. Commissioners could do their homework to address internal stakeholder interests before embarking on major decisions...prevent or mitigate the opportunity for political interference. For example, I believe that Casteen and/or Warner outmaneuvered Swofford (not that I’m not complaining about the result...because the Goblers were also my preference and should have always been included in the ACC). College athletics has become big business and we need a commissioner who is competent...not an errand-boy for ptb.

FWIW - I now live in Philly (and enjoy live Penn/StJoes/Nova basketball...partly because it’s closer than any ACC venue). Your obsession with personal backgrounds is odd. You do understand that just because I went to UVA and have passionately followed the ACC for the past half century, doesn’t mean that I have to fit a stereotype?

Actually you sound very much like someone from the greater Philly area and definitely not someone from South of the Potomac - Baltimore at best maybe Wilmington. The point of that is northeastern universities are not governed like Southern Universities. The price of actually having the State kick in a big percentage of the cost is politics.

I was trying to be polite and not directly accuse you of not knowing your ass from a hole in the ground.

(02-17-2021 10:52 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 05:44 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 12:26 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 07:43 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 07:34 PM)esayem Wrote:  What’s the culture at ECU? Genuinely interested in your take.

Mix of tidewater and southern. Deference to authority remains in Greenville. Although the more recent set of yahoos would have Leo Jenkins spinning in his grave.

I looked him up and he’s an interesting character. I suppose the older people I knew must have been familiar with him, hence the UNC-Greenville comments I recall.

Some old heads I know/knew believe William & Mary and Richmond should be in the ACC in place of BC and Miami (and subsequent additions). I understand that from a cultural standpoint..well at least during their era. Or at least an academic affiliation.

Yep, but if you were to go back another few years, that perfect "fit" would be Davidson College which was a mainstay on Carolina's schedule until WWII.
Davidson (all male, limited to 1,000 students until the 70's) is where the really smart kids went before they went on to law school, medical school, or to seminary at Union or Princeton to become Presbyterian Ministers.

Good point. I forgot about Davidson, part of the Big Five.

If you are going to include Davidson, you also need to include Bill and Mary, until the cheating finally got the best of them in 1950.

(02-17-2021 05:36 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 03:20 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 07:44 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 06:55 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 06:23 PM)esayem Wrote:  Everybody did that after Swofford! In retrospect, it seems he spearheaded that movement. See Missouri to the SEC and Maryland/Rutgers to the Big 10.

Culturally, I don't think there was a viable #3 unless you wanted to associate with West Virginia or ECU. A Louisville addition in 2004 would have been interesting, but definitely out of left field. Navy would have been compelling as a football affiliate and allowed the basketball conference a 20-game round robin.

As far as the targets went, I have to think he was implementing the hammer and anvil tactic by going for the northern outpost and coming down southward to control the Atlantic Coast.


To whom? Or better yet, to whom that matters?

Agree that all conferences learned their lessons from 2003. Not just the SEC and B10, but also the ACC’s subsequent expansion with Pitt & Syracuse.

The bad reputation was a reference to allowing politicians to get involved and the lawsuit. I recognize that the CT attorney general was just seeking to make a name for himself, but you don’t give shysters those easy opportunities.

With regards to the third team, it was going to be a school that was also affiliated with the Big East. The specific school is not the concern, it was the process.

How did the ACC allow Blumenthal or Warner to get involved? Governor Warner could do what he damn well pleased since he appoints VT's and UVa's Board.

I have to say the very construction of your sentences is odd for a long time conference member. You write as if you are really a Georgetown or Villanova fan and only recently came to know something about the Cavaliers.

The Boards of FSU, GT, Louisville, UNC, NCSU, VT, and UVa are all appointed by political creatures - a combination of Governors, and Legislative entities. They are not self-perpetuating. WF, ND, Miami, Syracuse, Duke, BC, and Pitt (to a lesser degree 2/3 of the appointees) have self perpetuating boards and can act as private entities. For the 7 publics, every breath has a political ramification. In NC, Duke and WF are also very sensitive to anything the NC General Assembly or the Governor wants because of the nature of tax breaks that their hospitals, hotels, and golf courses get.

If you want to get crushed in NC, SC, or Va, get in between one of those States and an economic development deal and you will be ground to pulp. Those educational entities are not there so much to educate as they are there to spread economic development.

Statefan,

The ACC allowed politicians to get overly-involved by having an expansion process that wasn’t well vetted nor well managed. Commissioners and conferences in all geographies have to deal with politicians, ptb and oligarchs. From comments on this board, the old BE and old B12 appear to have had even worse strife than the ACC. Commissioners could do their homework to address internal stakeholder interests before embarking on major decisions...prevent or mitigate the opportunity for political interference. For example, I believe that Casteen and/or Warner outmaneuvered Swofford (not that I’m not complaining about the result...because the Goblers were also my preference and should have always been included in the ACC). College athletics has become big business and we need a commissioner who is competent...not an errand-boy for ptb.

FWIW - I now live in Philly (and enjoy live Penn/StJoes/Nova basketball...partly because it’s closer than any ACC venue). Your obsession with personal backgrounds is odd. You do understand that just because I went to UVA and have passionately followed the ACC for the past half century, doesn’t mean that I have to fit a stereotype?

Actually you sound very much like someone from the greater Philly area and definitely not someone from South of the Potomac - Baltimore at best maybe Wilmington. The point of that is northeastern universities are not governed like Southern Universities. The price of actually having the State kick in a big percentage of the cost is politics.

I was trying to be polite and not directly accuse you of not knowing your ass from a hole in the ground.

Your politeness may be better than your reasoning

(02-17-2021 05:37 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 10:52 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 05:44 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 12:26 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 07:43 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Mix of tidewater and southern. Deference to authority remains in Greenville. Although the more recent set of yahoos would have Leo Jenkins spinning in his grave.

I looked him up and he’s an interesting character. I suppose the older people I knew must have been familiar with him, hence the UNC-Greenville comments I recall.

Some old heads I know/knew believe William & Mary and Richmond should be in the ACC in place of BC and Miami (and subsequent additions). I understand that from a cultural standpoint..well at least during their era. Or at least an academic affiliation.

Yep, but if you were to go back another few years, that perfect "fit" would be Davidson College which was a mainstay on Carolina's schedule until WWII.
Davidson (all male, limited to 1,000 students until the 70's) is where the really smart kids went before they went on to law school, medical school, or to seminary at Union or Princeton to become Presbyterian Ministers.

Good point. I forgot about Davidson, part of the Big Five.

If you are going to include Davidson, you also need to include Bill and Mary, until the cheating finally got the best of them in 1950.

What about the Spiders?

(02-17-2021 05:36 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 03:20 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 07:44 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 06:55 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(02-16-2021 06:23 PM)esayem Wrote:  Everybody did that after Swofford! In retrospect, it seems he spearheaded that movement. See Missouri to the SEC and Maryland/Rutgers to the Big 10.

Culturally, I don't think there was a viable #3 unless you wanted to associate with West Virginia or ECU. A Louisville addition in 2004 would have been interesting, but definitely out of left field. Navy would have been compelling as a football affiliate and allowed the basketball conference a 20-game round robin.

As far as the targets went, I have to think he was implementing the hammer and anvil tactic by going for the northern outpost and coming down southward to control the Atlantic Coast.


To whom? Or better yet, to whom that matters?

Agree that all conferences learned their lessons from 2003. Not just the SEC and B10, but also the ACC’s subsequent expansion with Pitt & Syracuse.

The bad reputation was a reference to allowing politicians to get involved and the lawsuit. I recognize that the CT attorney general was just seeking to make a name for himself, but you don’t give shysters those easy opportunities.

With regards to the third team, it was going to be a school that was also affiliated with the Big East. The specific school is not the concern, it was the process.

How did the ACC allow Blumenthal or Warner to get involved? Governor Warner could do what he damn well pleased since he appoints VT's and UVa's Board.

I have to say the very construction of your sentences is odd for a long time conference member. You write as if you are really a Georgetown or Villanova fan and only recently came to know something about the Cavaliers.

The Boards of FSU, GT, Louisville, UNC, NCSU, VT, and UVa are all appointed by political creatures - a combination of Governors, and Legislative entities. They are not self-perpetuating. WF, ND, Miami, Syracuse, Duke, BC, and Pitt (to a lesser degree 2/3 of the appointees) have self perpetuating boards and can act as private entities. For the 7 publics, every breath has a political ramification. In NC, Duke and WF are also very sensitive to anything the NC General Assembly or the Governor wants because of the nature of tax breaks that their hospitals, hotels, and golf courses get.

If you want to get crushed in NC, SC, or Va, get in between one of those States and an economic development deal and you will be ground to pulp. Those educational entities are not there so much to educate as they are there to spread economic development.

Statefan,

The ACC allowed politicians to get overly-involved by having an expansion process that wasn’t well vetted nor well managed. Commissioners and conferences in all geographies have to deal with politicians, ptb and oligarchs. From comments on this board, the old BE and old B12 appear to have had even worse strife than the ACC. Commissioners could do their homework to address internal stakeholder interests before embarking on major decisions...prevent or mitigate the opportunity for political interference. For example, I believe that Casteen and/or Warner outmaneuvered Swofford (not that I’m not complaining about the result...because the Goblers were also my preference and should have always been included in the ACC). College athletics has become big business and we need a commissioner who is competent...not an errand-boy for ptb.

FWIW - I now live in Philly (and enjoy live Penn/StJoes/Nova basketball...partly because it’s closer than any ACC venue). Your obsession with personal backgrounds is odd. You do understand that just because I went to UVA and have passionately followed the ACC for the past half century, doesn’t mean that I have to fit a stereotype?

Actually you sound very much like someone from the greater Philly area and definitely not someone from South of the Potomac - Baltimore at best maybe Wilmington. The point of that is northeastern universities are not governed like Southern Universities. The price of actually having the State kick in a big percentage of the cost is politics.

I was trying to be polite and not directly accuse you of not knowing your ass from a hole in the ground.

It's time to call a spade a spade.

(02-17-2021 12:44 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 12:30 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 12:10 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 10:53 AM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 10:12 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  The ACC never had a shot at becoming the country's "Southern" football conference - that title has been sewn up for years.

What the ACC can become - must become in order to survive - is the "Eastern" conference. Too many older guys don't seem to get this yet, but clearly ESPN does.

SEC = South
ACC = East
B1G = North
Pac = West
XII = meat

I would say B1G = Midwest (plus some northeast). Northeast doesn’t have enough fan base to support its own conference. The OBE tried and failed, and the ACC and B1G now fight for the territory.

Actually, the Old BE tried and succeeded until it became unstable. That football conference was actually thriving until it was raided. It did not fail because there wasnt enough fans. It failed because of being raided so much and then being backfilled with lessor accomplished programs which made the league so unstable that when the BCS was moving to a Power 5, everyone was looking for a life raft.

Agreed, but increasing TV $$ would have killed it without Penn State. The BE was short on national Elite FB schools.

Thats possible. But it didnt fail because of lack of fanbases. Thats the only point I was making

...or the lack of a good product on the field.

(02-17-2021 10:58 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 10:12 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  The ACC never had a shot at becoming the country's "Southern" football conference - that title has been sewn up for years.

What the ACC can become - must become in order to survive - is the "Eastern" conference. Too many older guys don't seem to get this yet, but clearly ESPN does.

SEC = South
ACC = East
B1G = North
Pac = West
XII = meat

It is true that this is how ESPN sees things. However, it is not how the public views them. The public sees college athletics as mostly irrelevant to their lives on the two coasts and everywhere in between views them as an integral part of their lives. This is true to a degree historically in that agricultural and veterinary schools were essential to the farmers of those states. The coasts have always been places of industry because the sea offered a cheaper means of transportation before roads than overland travel and because they of course had natural ports. The focus on the coasts has always been industry because if you locate the industry nearest to the transportation hubs (even the Great Lakes) then its not only easier to ship, but cheaper because you are in the places of destination that both receive raw materials and ship finished product again cutting overhead. Entertainment in industrial areas is always more cosmopolitan in nature.

Tobacco Road was a hybrid of the agriculture and industry and on the coast. Mutual dependence between the people, their agriculture & vet school, and their law and medical school, and their governments built the states and the way of life between the coasts. The universities were the center of culture and life within those states in ways they never were on the coasts. It's why it's the states in between the coasts that are more religious than those on the coasts. Faith institutions were another part of the support web of community. And this was grass roots in nature. Church bells had a thicker and thinner side to produce different pitch's in the tone of their ring. Early disaster relief efforts, all volunteer from the community, listened to the bell to know where to assemble for a fire, flood, or some other emergency. So cohesiveness existed in what were then the rural states in between the coasts.

What we see today in support of college athletics is more than just people without a professional team. Birmingham can't support a pro team because the college allegiances are so strong. In most places its the other way around. But those ties are literally approaching being a couple of centuries old.

So Mark the people see the situation differently whether they even recognize it or not. College sports in the heartland will always be stronger and better followed than they are on the coasts. It's history and culture, and it is ingrained in the children. Saturday dove shoots in Alabama saw every hunter with a transistor radio and an ear plug so they could listen to the games. They quit hunting when every game was televised. College football availability changed lifetime habits built around radio broadcasts. The industry I was in saw a precipitous drop in sales once OU/UGA and ESPN resulted in around the clock college games on a Saturday instead of the one on ABC. It slowed golf, stopped tennis, ended dove hunts, and vastly slowed the sell of shotguns and dove loads. I'm glad college football wasn't played on Sunday because it may have closed the churches when almost every game was televised one way or the other.

On the coasts college sports is one of many interests. In between the two coasts it is a way of life and religion rolled into one. This is why the ACC and PAC will never surpass the Big 10, Big 12, and SEC. It's not a fault of the schools, it is the culture of the states in which they reside. You are loved, but not beloved. You are relevant, but not central. And you are an event among many instead of the event. And therein lies the difference.

I would tweak that just a bit. I think fans in the ACC footprint from Charlotte to NYC traditionally follow college basketball, and they will follow a football team if it is a winner (exhibit A: Notre Dame; exhibit B: BC during the Flutie years). What fans on the East coast lack is loyalty during the down years. That's something the SEC has over the ACC (exhibit C: the South Carolina Gamecocks).

To be honest, even Florida State and Miami have a high percentage of "front runner" fans who are hard to find when the teams are losing. Clemson and VT fans are a little more loyal, IMO, and GT fans must be loyal (LOL).